Police shoot an "armed" middle school student

[Sovvolf]

My police force would never have to deal with the problem as even the idea of a child having a gun in Ireland is ridiculous and if he did manage to get one the cops couldn't shoot him anyway. Just the way it should be.

Are you actually trolling here?

What? So you are saying that it's better the way it is in America? ha.

Whats better in America? you make no sense. You mean the fact that if some looney 15 year old gets loose on School grounds with what is potentially a lethal firearm, refuses to put it down and starts pointing it at the police in a manner of wanting to shoot, they are justified in taking him out?

My point is that there has never been a school shooting in Ireland. Ever. Kids can't get guns and thats that. In my country a tool that can ends a mans life instantly from a great distance is actually nearly impossible to get. Fucked up am I right? My country is so backwards.

Never been a school shooting, aye?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

What are your precious police going to do in that situation?

Don't mean to side with nackertash (trust me on that one) however the Dunblan incident is a Scottish one done by a Scotsmen. There was one school incident though that happened with a flamethrower in Ireland.

 

[Starke]

And as for them actually shooting him, I'm willing to bet that someone who decided to punch a classmate in the face unprovoked, then pulls what appears to be a gun on armed police, doesn't have any inhibition about painting over a pellet gun with black.

There was actually an earlier back and forth with that poster pointing out how poor an example that photo was, along with some freakishly realistic pellet guns images. Just thought I'd point that out...

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

He did the right thing. The kid had something that looked very much like a gun and refused to put it down after exhibiting violent behaviour.

 

[Kingsnake661]

"Why was so much excess force used on a minor?" he asked. "Three shots. Why not one that would bring him down?"

He has a point there. This story is pretty fucked. Yes, the police had reason to feel threatened, but he was just a kid. He obviously snapped over something but he didn't deserve to die. Why did they shoot him three times? Why won't they release what the kid said before he died? Do we have anything other than their word that the gun "closely resembled the real thing"? It just kind of stinks.

Edit: I'm editting since I can't be bothered replying to everyone who quoted me. Okay, you've convinced be. Shooting to kill is an absolutely legitimate way of dealing with a child. Please stop quoting me now, I don't care that much.

Cops are tougt, at least, this is what i've heard, that when you think your life is in danger and you need to use leathel force, you do just that. Aim for center mass, the largest part of the body, and empty the clip. Anything short of that is dangerious, and only works in hollywood.

Look. Cops got familes too. Alot of pellet guns look just like the real thing. I've seen plenty of both belive me. What the cops were face with was an uncoupertive young man with a gun, as far as they could tell. This was not an overreaction on their part, it's simply a tragedy for everyone involved. And as non leathel weapons, they are very effective in alot of cases, but not every case, and frankly, in situation where the cops are facing down an armed (or they think their armed) person, they aren't reliable enough. You don't want to get as close as you need to to taz someone if they have a gun... that's just asking to be shot.

 

[RevRaptor]

Real life isn't like a video game or movie. Guns work differently.

I used to be in the Army (before I took an arrow to the knee)as a Rifleman, I know all about gun power, speed, accuracy, chance of hit etc.

And holy crap some people quoting go overboard here assuming we're basing facts from movies or games, there is such a thing as a warning shot, yes a bullet has to go somewhere, but I think shooting into the floor near him, ON THE BOTTOM LEVEL FLOOR MADE OF CONCRETE, by physic laws and the material, its not going to magically bounce up and hit someone. THAT is watching too many movies. :|

This is why I avoid Off-Topic these days, people go way overboard with discussion as if we're in parliament.

Really you can't have been paying attention then. I've seen what ricochet damage does, its nasty. I once saw a Sgt get a face full of concrete from a stray round. Damn near killed him. One guy I know got his leg mangled from gravel kicked up by a round. Stray rounds can kill.

 

[tarspoon]

Read the whole thread and was horrified and disgusted.
'I have no sympathy for him', 'kid was an idiot', ' kid got what he deserved'. Who are you people? Or better what are you? I'm not sure you are human enough to be addressed as who.
A child was shot dead. By police. Force which protects you and your children too. They will give no chance to anyone with something even resembling a weapon. Did the boy use this 'weapon' of his? Hurt or shot someone? No. Did he take someone hostage? No. So how is his death is justified? Did this policemen even try to talk to the kid? Or it was just 'Put your gun down.' Bang Bang
I salute nackertash for trying to point at the perverted moral of your 'justified child killing' though it was a futile effort. America and it's people are truly cursed.

 

[Todd Ralph]

Real life isn't like a video game or movie. Guns work differently.

I used to be in the Army (before I took an arrow to the knee)as a Rifleman, I know all about gun power, speed, accuracy, chance of hit etc.

And holy crap some people quoting go overboard here assuming we're basing facts from movies or games, there is such a thing as a warning shot, yes a bullet has to go somewhere, but I think shooting into the floor near him, ON THE BOTTOM LEVEL FLOOR MADE OF CONCRETE, by physic laws and the material, its not going to magically bounce up and hit someone. THAT is watching too many movies. :|

This is why I avoid Off-Topic these days, people go way overboard with discussion as if we're in parliament.

then hopefully if you were trained right, which the way it seems you werent (ive also heard the army knows nothing of tap rack bang) then you should also know you never give a warning shot and when you shoot you aim to incapacitate


http://www.marines.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO%205500.6H.pdf section 1-6 subsection g

 

[Todd Ralph]

also the the irishman saying something about school shooting true however the IRA is something altogether worse imo. also there honestly is no better way this could have turned out. sure the kid could have shot someone and gotten tackled but that option is the worse one for the cops because ill be blunt no way in hell am i going to risk getting shot and leave my family broke and without a father. you can always make more kids but kids will only have one father or mother.

 

[Jadak]

What gets me is the firing of *3* bullets. Use one to disable the target, not 3 to risk killing. Especially a child. It's a little uncalled for.

Disable? If you're shooting something, it's to neutralize it as a threat. End of story. Anything short of killing as quickly as possible increases the change that they'll manage to do something.

Besides, even ignoring that reasoning, what's so crazy about 3 bullets, between two cops? If you fire one bullet, by the time you observe the impact, judge the result and decide if the target is still a threat, they'll have had time to take you down if they are.

So, that right there is an easy bump to 2 shots and a 3rd wouldn't be hard to justify either. But that's for one person, we're talking two shooters, meaning one fired a perfectly reasonable 2 shots, and the other actually only fired once (or there was even more but some misses involved).

No matter how exactly it happened, 3 shots between multiple shooters is nothing. It's not like they stood there emptying their clip into the kid. From start to finish it would barely take the blink of an eye, I'm rather surprised it was merely 3.

 

[madwarper]

Who are you people? Or better what are you?

We're the occupants of reality. If you'd like to join us, you're more than welcome, just be sure to check your fairy tale land ideals at the door.

A punk ass child was waving a WEAPON around, threatening his classmates and the police, ignored SEVERAL orders to disarm and was shot dead. By police.

Fixed, since you seemed to omit key details.

Force which protects you and your children too.

They DID protect the children. BY. REMOVING. THE. THREAT. TO. THEM.

They will give no chance to anyone with something even resembling a weapon. Did the boy use this 'weapon' of his? Hurt or shot someone? No. Did he take someone hostage? No. So how is his death is justified?

So, you want the police to have waited until this kid starting filling body bags? And, you have the gall question our humanity?

Did this policemen even try to talk to the kid? Or it was just 'Put your gun down.' Bang Bang

Did you read the article? The police gave him SEVERAL. Repeat, SEVERAL opportunities to disarm.

 

[Iron Criterion]

Stories like these always annoy the hell out of me. The kid was in a school running around with a pellet gun, which appeared to the officers in question as a genuine handgun. Now giving that they believed he was armed, around innocents and he refused to co-operate or even tell the officers the gun wasn't real, I for one can not see any other viable outcome.

How is that police brutality?

 

[Iron Criterion]

Read the whole thread and was horrified and disgusted.
'I have no sympathy for him', 'kid was an idiot', ' kid got what he deserved'. Who are you people? Or better what are you? I'm not sure you are human enough to be addressed as who.
A child was shot dead. By police. Force which protects you and your children too. They will give no chance to anyone with something even resembling a weapon. Did the boy use this 'weapon' of his? Hurt or shot someone? No. Did he take someone hostage? No. So how is his death is justified? Did this policemen even try to talk to the kid? Or it was just 'Put your gun down.' Bang Bang
I salute nackertash for trying to point at the perverted moral of your 'justified child killing' though it was a futile effort. America and it's people are truly cursed.

He assaulted another kid AND people heard him announce that he is going to kill people. He got multiple warnings and started aiming the gun at someone. Do you really want someone to die first before the police is allowed to use lethat force against someone who seems to be a threat?

This has NOTHING to do with "America". This is standard procedure.

Exactly. If the police had allowed innocents to come to harm then the public anger would be considerably worse.

 

[Shockolate]

I was gonna post a reply to tarspoon and then I took an arrow in the knee but 3 different people said the exact same thing I while typing it up.

Fucking ninja's...oh well, I won't let it go to waste.

Protecting includes from other people. His death is justified by refusing to cooperate with police, and brandishing what looked to be a real firearm and pointed it at the officers. The report also said that he assaulted another student and threatened to kill everyone.

They didn't take any chances. If they did, people might have died. Kid pushed too far with people you don't want to fuck around with.

 

[Hennofletch]

Cops are justified. I feel really bad for the officers that had to kill him, right decision or not that's got to suck.

I don't think tasers would be the right response, correct me if I'm wrong but in the escalation of force model doesn't: 'The treat of Deadly force' = Use Deadly Force.

Too all those saying hes just a kid. He had a gun in a school, whether its real or not you have to act on the worst case scenario.

 

[Gearhead mk2]

I think that, given that they had given the guy plenty of warnings, what they did was slightly justified, but TBH I dont think that regular police should have lethal weapons at all, cos there are mistakes like this and they cost lives.

 

[Todd Ralph]

to everyone saying hes just a kid i think you are all retarded. just a kid is 5-10 years old 15 is a young adult. hell in some countries you better start working hard to stay alive at 15 i hate the way current americans think that we need to cuddle our young tell they are 20 then kick them out with little to no knowledge of how the real world works. also 15 is old enough to know right from wrong, stupid from smart put gun down or wave gun around.