Poll: A sensitive question about transgender and locker rooms

[Demagogue]

So you're saying if that dude, I dunno, let's say followed your daughter/wife/sister into a locker room or bathroom you would just be totally fine with it? Yeah, I'm sure . . . .

A dude would have no reason to follow my sister (other two don't apply) into a locker room. However a transwoman does SHE is going to the locker room, just like my sister would be.

Putting aside the fact that, I would most likely not realize she was a transwoman to start with and I have absolutely no right to grill her upon her desire to enter on if she is or not.

 

[tippy2k2]

Looking at this fella I can see why the woman would be more than a little concerned. It looks like someone slapped a dress on Skinner from the X-Files

Did you SERIOUSLY just randomly picture hunt from google to find a picture to 'prove' your point. First off... wow, completely inappropriate...

No, I posted a picture of what the person in question looks like. That is the person this woman saw in the locker room. By all appearances it's some big old dude in a dress. I'm sorry you are so offended by reality.

Can you show me where you got the picture? Info may have been updated but when I made the thread a few days ago, no news stories had pictures of the gal in question.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Looking at this fella I can see why the woman would be more than a little concerned. It looks like someone slapped a dress on Skinner from the X-Files

Did you SERIOUSLY just randomly picture hunt from google to find a picture to 'prove' your point. First off... wow, completely inappropriate...

No, I posted a picture of what the person in question looks like. That is the person this woman saw in the locker room. By all appearances it's some big old dude in a dress. I'm sorry you are so offended by reality.

Can you show me where you got the picture? Info may have been updated but when I made the thread a few days ago, no news stories had pictures of the gal in question.

Looks like it is from the daily mail http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2985579/Transgender-woman-believes-s-center-Planet-Fitness-policy-controversy-says-used-women-s-locker-room-twice-hang-coat-purse.html

 

[tippy2k2]

snip

snip

Alright, thank you. I am on my phone at work (don't tell the boss!) and doing code stuff is a pain on the phone. When I get home later tonight, I will add this new info to the opening.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

The woman
No where in this story does it mention the transwoman doing or saying anything to make the other woman uncomfortable, other than just being there. I'm sorry, but if being in the mere presence of someone different than you upsets you, then maybe YOU are the problem, not them.

I believe you read this story with an extremely biased point of view. It clearly states that as she perceived it a strange man walked in on her while she was undressing, how is that not supposed to make her uncomfortable? Alot of people are accusing her of being a transphobic bigot, for saying "he looked like a man" this basically just expresses that she could not tell by lookong at them that they were even trans. Is it reasonable to assume all trans people are passable? Is it reasonable to assume all people are educated in the complex minutia of trans life? Is it reasonable to assume she has even ever seen a trans woman before? Is it reasonable to assume she can tell the difference without a name tag that says "hi i am trans" and an hour of conversation?

This world is getting stranger and stranger. I have met multiple furries, I have never even seen a trans person outside of media (it is possible I have seen one that is completely passable, but i find the hands to be dead giveaways in media). With such a tiny minority, it is not reasonable to expect everyone to understand you. The only reason i know anything about trans people is i took a specific interest because I found it fascinating.

Captcha: the bible
.....damit

 

[Demagogue]

No, no I can't tell that is a man in a dress. that is a HUMAN in a dress sure, but based on the photo alone, she is simply a bigger woman.

 

[AshuraSpeaks]

Also, have a couple of changing stalls in the locker rooms so that people who are shy can use them and not worry about being seen by others. Seems simple enough to me.

This should be implemented most of all, even if no transgender person ever wants that gym, because I hate having to change in toilet stalls.

 

[The Lunatic]

No, no I can't tell that is a man in a dress. that is a HUMAN in a dress sure, but based on the photo alone, she is simply a bigger woman.

Again, you might want to have your eyes checked because that is CLEARLY a dude in a dress.

Well, to be fair, in a changing room, probably wouldn't be in a dress to begin with.

 

[Demagogue]

No, no I can't tell that is a man in a dress. that is a HUMAN in a dress sure, but based on the photo alone, she is simply a bigger woman.

Again, you might want to have your eyes checked because that is CLEARLY a dude in a dress.

No, it isn't clearly a dude... and really at this point we are arguing difference in opinion of what we think 'women' need to look like which is a whole different argument.

I believe you read this story with an extremely biased point of view. It clearly states that as she perceived it a strange man walked in on her while she was undressing, how is that not supposed to make her uncomfortable? Alot of people are accusing her of being a transphobic bigot, for saying "he looked like a man" this basically just expresses that she could not tell by lookong at them that they were even trans. Is it reasonable to assume all trans people are passable? Is it reasonable to assume all people are educated in the complex minutia of trans life? Is it reasonable to assume she has even ever seen a trans woman before? Is it reasonable to assume she can tell the difference without a name tag that says "hi i am trans" and an hour of conversation?

Which brings me to another point I'm not sure has been made or not and that is that folks typically don't gussy themselves up for a trip to the gym. The person in question isn't very damn convincing while trying their hardest I can only imagine what he would look like in a more casual setting. It's not entirely unlikely to think that he was very likely simply in shorts and a t shirt at which point he would look EXACTLY like a man who happens to be in the women's locker room. I can only imagine that if you are some woman it's pretty fucking creepy to stumble across some random dude in the women's locker room.

Actually I just read the dailymail article... the two times she has gone to the gym has been in leggings and a baggy t-shirt. How many men do you know wear leggings to the gym? (not that they couldn't, we just generally don't). So should a transwoman have to dress in overtly feminine outfits (eg dresses, which can be worn by both, but are predominately worn by women) at all time to make sure people understand she is a woman? I almost... almost went and posted a bunch of different pictures of men dressed as women, women dressed as women and gave you all a little quiz on which was which, but screw that, I'd be no better than XanCo at that point.

And I believe people (or at least I am) calling her transphobic and a bigot, because even AFTER the fact that she knows this person is a woman, she keeps refering to her as a man.

Is it reasonable to assume all trans people are passable?
Yes it is, because I (or you, or anyone) shouldn't get to tell another person what is passable as female or male.

Is it reasonable to assume all people are educated in the complex minutia of trans life?
In the USA no because their education is a joke. But yes, translife should be part of sex ed in all schools worldwide as far as I'm concerned.

Is it reasonable to assume she has even ever seen a trans woman before?
Well we don't have to assume this one... She HAS seen a transwoman Should it matter if she hadn't?

Is it reasonable to assume she can tell the difference without a name tag that says "hi i am trans" and an hour of conversation?
And this should matter why? She is in there to change to workout at a gym. Not to pick up people. That seems to be a common theme in this thread, that some people are intimiated by changing infront of someone of the other sex, well guess what, the other person is there for one purpose, to change in order to workout as well. They aren't there to oogle you.

This world is getting stranger and stranger. I have met multiple furries, I have never even seen a trans person outside of media (it is possible I have seen one that is completely passable, but i find the hands to be dead giveaways in media). With such a tiny minority, it is not reasonable to expect everyone to understand you. The only reason i know anything about trans people is i took a specific interest because I found it fascinating.

You say you've never even seen a transperson outside of media and I have one simple question for you. How do you know that? Unless you ask every person you meet if they are trans (which I doubt because you don't seem like an asshole) you may work besides a trans person and simply not know, because as @PaulH pointed out, many live their entire lives 'in-stealth'.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just as one can be a man or a woman, they can be a two spirit, that IS HUMAN, and it is insulting to all of those who take pride in being two spirit to claim they are not.

Where did I do this? I renounce what you think I am. That is what I renounce. Because I disagree on your analysis of my condition does not mean I'm belittling an entire culture.

If your brain scans show you to be between to male and female spectrum, that is what would be defined as two spirit by definition.

How about if you let people identify, and self authenticate themselves rather than pretending you have any right to?

The brain scans of males, female, and transgenders are different, and the transgender brain is neither male or female, and they should be proud of this, it is natural and healthy. In Native American cultures, these people are called two spirits, that is not an insult, or degrading it is what they are called instead of transgender. Many consider transgender to be more of a degrading term than two spirits and prefer to use that solely to define themselves.

And yet ... given I am transgender, you find my personal input invalid in regards to my self identification? Come now ... you'll need stronger. Does it at all surprise you that trans people consider themselves man or woman based on their own self authentication? If you are going to call these people liars, then what right do you have to summon my respect for superstition as key to understanding self?

It is great that those things helped you with what you decided was wrong with your life, the issue though is what you experienced in your life that made you feel you needed to both externally and internally. Societies expectations of what it means to be male or female are part of the problem, not all societies make people feel as though they have to be one or the other in the first place. You cannot rewind and erase everything you have been exposed to since birth and change how your own perceptions of what it means to be male and female to auto correct all of the negative data you have received, but some who were instead celebrated for being two spirit never developed a negative self image, instead they loved themselves just he way they are.

I experienced philosophy, actually. It give me the means to articulate my despair ... and it gave me the strength to realise that my self expression is not merely valid, but also a stepping stone to achieving a society that can be free from artificial ideas of the essentialism of mankind. I didn't choose to physically change because of society's ideas of man or woman, but rather on my belief that there is no universal man or woman for anyone to make any valid criticism of a transgender identity.

It is great these things helped you, and I hope they continue to help you, Some however, do not see that there is anything wrong on themselves that needs to be fixed, nor should they be pressured to.

Of course not. I am, if nothing else, a libertarian.

If we change societies view of " what is normal" we will also change how people view themselves. When it becomes normal and considered a great thing to be two spirited, less people will have the desire to change themselves because they will already feel normal.

The problem is not feeling you are perfect to begin with, what in your environment made you feel that way, and how we go about making everyone feel as they are perfect the way they are so they all have a positive self image from the start.

And yet just as it is not for people to pretend there is normal, nor is it for you to determine who is 'two spirit'. Certainly not without the persona so identified. Why not listen to them first, to see how they feel?

Medical consensus disproves what? My choice fields of study were Immunology and Pediatric Medicine, and I am fully aware that the studies have shown and that the transgender brain scans have shown that their brains are neither male or female, but in between. I think you misunderstand, I am not saying that you should not have surgeries if that is what you feel you need. However, I am stating that we need to address the issues in society that are pressuring people into thinking they are broken and need fixed, when they are not.

Medical consensus shows that treatment, hrt and surgical, if so desired reduces cases of suicide and increases general social participation. Though I dislike this idea that people 'need to be fixed' ....

Whilst certainly, many transgender people articulate this as such, I see it more in terms of self authentication. Something I will myself to be. It's my choice, regardless ... I see it less as fixing a problem, but rather being more true to self. Being unfaithful to one's idea of self is not necessarily a person who is 'broken'.

Indeed, I hold in confidence a gay friend who came out to me, but is afraid of what his family will say. Pretending, in the mean time, if only to give him a chance to properly come out on his own time. I do not see him as 'broken', but I do see him as reaching for his self authentication in all aspects of his life.

He is striving for it. It is a part of his character. Not broken, merely human. A crime we're all guilty of.

If you are a person people will think you are a person. If you are a two spirit people will think you are a two spirit. That is how this works. It is like saying a rock is a rock or water is water. IT is what things are by definition. I'm sorry just because I want to be called a frog, does not mean that I am one, nor would I expect people to call me one.

See, you claim that people get to decided for themselves what they will be classified as by others, and that is not true. You can be born two spirit (transgender) but you cannot be born a rock simply because you want to call yourself a rock. It is like saying you have 16 toes when everyone else will tell you that you have 10. We have names and definitions to communicate, we do not get to change what those mean individually at will, that is done by society. We would not be able to communicate if we did not use words such as two spirit or transgender, different cultures have different languages and words that are defined, and yes if the person is between male and female they are a two spirit by definition, and it is a word of honor, not an insult. The reason why some prefer to be called two spirit over trans is due to the definition of trans :

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trans-
a prefix meaning ?on the other side of,? referring to the misalignment.

The problem with this definition, it claims there is a misalignment. That infers that something is wrong, and there is nothing wrong with being two spirit. They disagree that this is a misalignment, instead they were meant to be another sex than their gender, and it is not misaligned at all, it is how it was meant to be. The very definition of the word makes them feel as though there is something wrong with them, when it is perfectly normal, natural and healthy to be born a different gender than your body. There is no such negativity associated with being a two spirit. Though if you are a transgender in western culture, you are a two spirit in native culture, they can be used as synonyms for each other, as the only difference is that they do not use the word misaligned which is a negative word meaning that something is wrong with them. I do not get to decide where I am in the spectrum between male and female, I am simply am the way I am regardless of how people choose to define what that means. If my brain scans show me to be two spirit that I am one, that isn't a choice, it is " just how we are". Just as if I have 2 legs, everyone will tell me I have 2 legs. I would sound like I was out of my mind if I ran around trying to tell people I want them to tell me I have 4 legs just because I say so. That would be silly. I use the word two spirit because it does not have the negative definition that transgender does. I see nothing wrong with being a different gender than your genitals.

The problem with how we see our selves, is we have no way of knowing if under different social circumstances that we would see ourselves different than we currently do. For example, if two spirits are considered the "perfect human" the best actors, the sexiest models, socialites that everyone admired and looked up to (as they actually were in Native culture) being able to choose to date whoever they wish and many admirers and an entourage wherever they go, why would they want to change? The truth in native society is they didn't want to change because that is exactly how they were treated. In Hopi culture two spirits were the highest social status that could be achieved and when the Europeans came the people were forced to hide and protect them from the christian crusaders because they would hunt them and kill them if found. It is in western society that they have to hide, and be stealth, that does not exist everywhere.

How we view ourselves is created in part by our environment and societal pressures help create our own identity. Whether those pressures are negative or positive greatly impact this, and will be reflected in our decisions. People feel pressured to be a man or a woman due to the pressures society places on them, not that they would necessarily choose to be so if those pressures are removed.

If a two spirit never has pressures to be anything other than what they are born, they do not see that there is anything wrong that needs to be fixed. They are happy with the way they are because they are admired or being the way they are, it is seen as a gift, a blessing, not a curse. " I am as I am" You are as you are" rather than "I am not good enough and need to be changed." The very definition of trans implies that something is broken, that is part of the problem. The west still views being trans as being broken and needing to be fixed. I see that as part of the problem, not the solution.

What needs to be resolved in western society is that they have to stop seeing two spirits as being broken to begin with. In Hopi society, they do not just have 2 genders to begin with, so there is nothing that is considered broken in the first place.

 

[Batou667]

The story; a woman has had her membership revoked from Planet Fitness

She dodged a bullet. NOBODY should ""work out"" at Planet Fitness (quad quotation marks for emphasis).

As for the changing room question: I've always held that "Female changing room" implicitly means female-bodied people, since the sex-gender divide apparently makes it necessary to spell that out. Arguments based on sexuality fall flat because we let homosexuals use changing rooms of their own gender; the cultural norm being adhered to here is the idea that we're voluntarily segregating by body-type, even if there's no (straw) man at the door performing genital inspections on entry.

Put as tactfully as I can manage; if a trans person doesn't pass as their chosen sex, they should anticipate discomfort caused by their presence and take steps to mitigate it, not place 100% of the onus on the rest of society. People aren't psychic, they don't know what you identify as; and a male-bodied person in a female changing room is generally cause for concern. That's just a fact of life.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

If you are a person people will think you are a person. If you are a two spirit people will think you are a two spirit. That is how this works. It is like saying a rock is a rock or water is water. IT is what things are by definition. I'm sorry just because I want to be called a frog, does not mean that I am one, nor would I expect people to call me one.

You know when people have fuck all to say when they go to the;

"Therefore if I think I'm (x)...." Essentialist garbage.

Implying that someone identifying as human is SOMEHOW akin to someone saying they identify as a piece of inanimate matter or an animal beyond that which is human.

Prove to me there is a universal man or woman, or don't pretend there is. And certainly don't pretend it's the same as calling yourself a 'frog'. Utter garbage, and broken philosophical premises.

It's obvious you didn't even bother to read anything I wrote, or my reasons for being ... insisting with your shitty narrative, and pretending as if it were true. It's not ... it's broken. Both in basic logic, philosophy, and utterly unrepresented in my life. If you're willing to pretend you wish the good of trans people, the first step would be to actually talk to a few of them.

At the very least, preferable to just pretending your base, broken ideas are at all representative of the nature of the people you purport to be so worried about.

What I find terribly discouraging, is that you think you stand for the good of transgender persons when it is so blatantly obvious that your rhetoric is part and parcel why transgender people find themselves so maligned. Deepest hypocrisy, and entirely lacking in the intellectual honesty to listen to the thoughts or feelings of trans people despite wishing to argue their non-existence.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

If you are a person people will think you are a person. If you are a two spirit people will think you are a two spirit. That is how this works. It is like saying a rock is a rock or water is water. IT is what things are by definition. I'm sorry just because I want to be called a frog, does not mean that I am one, nor would I expect people to call me one.

You know when people have fuck all to say when they go to the;

"Therefore if I think I'm (x)...." Essentialist garbage.

Because someone identifying as human is SOMEHOW just as easy as saying someone they identify as a piece of inanimate matter.

Prove to me there is a universal man or woman, or don;t pretend there is. And certainly don't pretend it's the same as calling yourself a 'frog'. Given that we have had a multiplicity of cultures across this Earth, throughout time, write wildly discordant things about manhood and womanhood. Also, the rest of what you say? Utter garbage, and broken philosophical premises.

It's obvious you didn't even bother to read anything I wrote, or my reasons for being ... insisting with your shitty narrative, and pretending as if it were true. It's not ... it's broken. Both in basic logic, philosophy, and utterly unrepresented in my life. If you're willing to pretend you wish the good of trans people, the first step would be to actually talk to a few of them.

Might be a good step. Rather than pretending your base, broken ideas are at all representative of the nature of the people you purport to be so worried about.

I do not even think you read what I wrote, the west sees people as broken if they do not fit into their idea of "woman and man" and thus that is the problem with how they treat two spirits in Western society. You refuse to address that is the primary issue.
"Talk to a few"? REALLY? You actually go around telling people that when they tell you that society should not pressure people to change who they are and make baseless assumptions about them? What broken ideas? Please do tell, you did not even bother reading what you are responding to. Western society treats two spirits as broken and needing to be fixed, and you are telling me that is a broken idea? LMAO that is absurd. You make unfounded assumptions. Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

You are not even considering things from any view other than your own and are behaving completely close minded in how these things affect others who do not share your sentiment.Instead you prematurely judge them. It isn't like you are the only person here born that enjoyed things that were considered " only for the opposite sex" or that is intimate with their own sex, or that has emotions that are considered not appropriate for your own sex. Think about it for a second, maybe you will start to see things for what they are instead of blowing it out.

Yea go ahead, put your hands on your hips and spout " I'm trans and everyone who disagrees with could not possibly understand." BS some more without even knowing Anything about the people you are speaking to.

Spoiler

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:
1)I am bisexual and have had sexual activity with both males and females.
2) Almost all of my hobbies, likes and dislikes are what are considered appropriate for the opposite sex, not my sex.
3)I wear both male and female attire.
4)I was told from a young age I have personality traits associated with the opposite sex.
.. This just from my post history on this site alone, yet, I need to go " talk to a few" eh?
Get over yourself.
I have never really worried about it either way though. "I am as I am" and never felt a need to classify myself or change myself. I like my body, I like my interests and I am not the one who has a problem here, it is western society that thinks I should have to choose a toy isle as a kid, not me. I am not so "stuck on myself" that I obsess over every little thing about me, physically or emotionally. I do not put much thought into the things that I see as non important and just like what I do. I look at it as life being too short to worry about petty things.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so whether it is a girl who likes boy things, or a boy who dresses as a girl matter not, they are all included.

 

[Rosiv]

Just because something applies to you does not mean it applies to everyone.

Similarly, just because "two spirit" is something that applies to some, does not mean it should be applied to all trans people.

How is insisting that trans people must identify as two spirit any better than insisting they identify as their biological sex or whatever people say?

If you bothered to look through my post history, you would see:

With respect, none of that makes you transgender.

No, but my brain scans would, even if I personally never see myself that way. "Two spirit" includes anyone who has both male and female qualities. It includes all LGBT. It is just a definition, there is no negative associated with " two spirit" as there is with " trans" however. " two spirit" comes from the idea that one is both a boy and a girl in some way, there are different degrees and many ways to be so.

The key issue is why do you get to tell other people what they are based on your culture's definition? Just because you see being male/female as not a negative doesn't mean that others find it a boon. It is hypocritical of you to tell other people what to identify as, given you are a native american, and historically those people were often attempted to be forced into roles they saw not fit?