Poll: Abortion : Should men get a say?

[HentMas]

snip

oooh, you seem like a smart girl, could you please read my previous post and tell me your ideas, i would love to discuss this further.

You have a pretty amazing story. It's really cool what you did for your son, and I'm happy for you.

On the topic of whether or not a man should have a say when it comes to a woman aborting their child, I'm just not sure. The feminist in me wants to tell you that a man has no right to tell a woman she's going to carry his child whether she likes it or not. But the other part of me thinks that a man should fight for his child if he wants to raise him or her. It's a really, really tough question.

yes, but from my point of view i always thougt i was "pro-choice" right up untill that moment when i heard my son´s heart beat, thats when all "idealism" jumped right out the window, but here are my thought´s none the less.

If it was a mistake, a pregnancy that was not planed, people have to realize that they were having "sex" "concented sex" none the less, and one should have the guts to accept what comes out of acting like "adults" if she is not old enough to be able to have and raise a kid, then stop trying to make babies (hehehe), i am not saying that she haves no right to do whatever she wants with her body, i am saying that she is able to do whathever she wants with her body, be it have sex, drink alcohol, act irresponsibly, but she haves to face the problems her decitions might come, if she was taking drugs and she got to Jail or to rehab, thats the consequence, she got pregnant?? well thats the consecuence too!.

have the same guts to accept the concecuencess of your actions is what i say, you want to have complete total controll of your life and your body, then act acordingly by the rules.

now, a rape or any other thing like that, it´s besides the question, that is something i dread my self to face, if that kid was born he will surely suffer the most.

of course if neither parent want the kid, forcing them to have him is absolutely pointless, and i understand taking the child into this world would bring him suffering, but if only one parent wants to have the kid, well, the mom is only going to have to suffer for a few months, and then she will never see him again (of course if thats what she wants) ultimately it is a choice of both, yes, its your body, but that´s my son inside you (see what i mean??)

 

[Sgt Doom]

A woman is the one deciding if the baby will be kept, the father should have the choice to not be involved if the conception was by accident. I'm not trying to be insensitive, but if a guy accidentally impregnated someone through a broken condom, you can't force him to be the father. But if it was on purpose, its his own fault if he's getting cold feet. He decided before, no backing out now.

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Tharwen]

If the father would raise the child, he should be able to choose, otherwise, he shouldn't be able to decide what the rest of the woman's life will be like when it has no consequences for him.

 

[Doug]

snip

snip

I´m sorry, but this had hit rather close to confort into my personal life, so i´m going to rant about my personal experience, so that people might see my point and think.

Ok, here goes nothing

Spoiler

Ok, I had a girl friend, we had sex, she got pregnant, she was 17 at the time I was 21.

We were 3 months into the relationship, but it doesn´t matter, she started to act really weird towards me when we found out she was pregnant, so she broke up with me after a while, she had taken pills to abort (it was before 3 months, we both didn´t saw the kid as a living person) and so we continued with our lives we kept in touch and I was fairly angry at her because she had being bad mouthing me telling everyone that I was obsessed with her and things like that and telling everyone nasty things about me, something I didn´t liked of course.

So, after the first trimester she called me and said ?look, we have to go take an ultrasound just to check how are things going? I was angry and told her ?all right, I?ll make the appointment?, so yeah, I called the doctor and he told me that Friday would be good, so I called her again and told her, she said ?ok, call me on Friday?, well, Friday came and I called her (she had become quite rebellious with her parents and had being going out to bars and discos since we split up, not that I cared, but she seemed too eager to comment it with me whenever we talked ?I went to this bar with my friends? and such which was a lie because her parents had told me she had only gone out like once) so anyway, I called her and said ?it´s time to go? she began to say ?oh, I can?t go, I?m going out of town with a few friends to watch a movie? I got really angry and told her ?then tell one of your fucking friends to take you to the doctor? she got quiet and finally agreed, so we went and we were all nervous sitting in the waiting room (I was expecting to see nothing) the doctor called and we got in, she got into the chair and the doctor began, ?ok, let?s see? after a while of searching the doctor said ?well, that?s the head?. And those are the legs?.and those are his arms?
HELL!!! I wasn´t expecting THAT? so I was at the verge of tears when he pointed the ultrasound to his heart? and there it was? the heart beat? steady? strong? beautiful, I couldn´t take it anymore, so the doc said ?is this your first child? and she said, quite serious, with no hint of emotion in her voice ?oh, we are not having the baby?

My head blurred, those words echoed in my mind for a long time until I found myself driving in the car, she was talking with a friend in the phone ?yeah!!, meet you there!!? she hang up and told me ?ok, can you drop me near the church? I said ?ok, but can?t we talk about this??? ?no? she replied ?there is nothing to talk about? I was numb, I didn´t knew what to say ?but why not??, lets discuss this, is there any way that you can have the kid? ?look, just drop it, you are just saying that because you want us back together, you don?t want this kid at all?
Oh, that was the ticket; I told her ?well, you know what FUCK YOU, GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY CAR WE WILL SEE ABOUT THAT?

So she got out and I started driving aimlessly, I called a friend and told him ?dude, I need you? so I got him out of his house and I explained everything to him ?what are you going to do???he asked, I said ?I don?t know? at that moment my phone rang, it was her, I answered ?what do you want?? and she said ?ok, look, I?m going to look for a clinic to have the abortion and I will send the bill to you? I got angrier than before ?O HELL YOU WONT, I AM NOT GOING TO PAY FOR YOU TO KILL MY SON? and she replied ?FINE, I´LL SEE WHAT I DO BUT I AM NOT HAVING THIS BABY?

I was utterly wordless, she hang up and I asked my friend ?what do I do? he replied ?I don?t know, you know, we should probably go and talk with Chuy, he haves a cooler head for this problems? so up we went to meet with Chuy, after a quick explanation, ?the only way I think I can stop her is by telling her parents, but that utterly will destroy any kind of relationship with her, be it friendship or whatever? he pondered for a few moments and asked ?what do you want??, I quickly said ?I want to have my kid?, then he said ?go and tell her parents?.
I got into my car and drove as fast as I could to her parents home, In the way I called her on, her friend answered ?yes, Vinicio, What do you want?? I quickly told her ?look, whatever she does, don?t let her hurt my son, don?t let her do anything rash? so she answered ?I´m sorry Vini, but she is my friend, I am going to support her in whatever decision she makes? and I told her ?if she doesn´t want to talk to me, i´m going to have to tell her parents? she then told me ?if you tell her parents she is going to hate you for the rest of her life? I stopped for a second and replied ?so be it? and hung up. (I am not making this shit up, that happened to the letter).

So I kept driving and she called me again, she was crying ?don?t you tell my parents? ?you leave me no choice? ?I´ll hate you? ?then hate me, but I won?t let you kill my son? ?I have caused too much troubles and burden in my family, don?t tell them, it is best if I abort, besides I will never be back with you, no matter what? I got angry again ?so fucking sure I only want to be with you?? You are sooo wrong, you don´t want to have the kid, I do, no point in talking with you? so I hung up and got to her parents house, I called her mom ?can you come out, I have to talk to you?, ?sure Vini, i´m going? so she got out.

I told her ?you want to know why your daughter is behaving so weird lately? well, I have something to tell you?, I explained everything, all that have happened up from our break up till that time. ?oh? so, that?s why she broke up with you, she was so happy with you? I was al WTF??? No, she was wrong, her daughter hated me, well, I let that slip and told her ?well, your daughter doesn´t want the kid, but I do, what do we do?? she started crying ?I don?t know, I have to talk with my husband? she explained me later that she was crying because she was disappointed with her daughter that she wanted to kill a baby instead of telling her parents, so we got out and she called her husband, he came out and faced me, after a much briefer explanation the father stood in front of me, I was sure he was going to punch me in the face, I stood there and didn´t move ?oh, how stupid can you both be?, go home, I will talk to my daughter, we´ll gather tomorrow to talk?

So, I went home and told my parents, my mom only said ?I´m going to be a grandmother!?!?? with shiny eyes, my dad discussed the matter more thoroughly ?do you want to be with her?? ?NO, I don?t want to be with her, not after I saw that she can be a murderer?, ?are you willing to take care of the kid?, ?YES, I don?t care how much I have to do to accomplish that, I will take care of my son? ?are you prepared to go to the outmost consequences if she doesn´t give in??? I stopped, ?what do you mean???, he lowered his voice and told me ?I mean that we will probably be forced to set a demand abiding her to have the baby and give it to you, and that if she ever hurts the baby she will be sent to Jail for murder? (here in MX the laws allow that), ?yes, I don?t care about her any more, I want to have my kid, period.?

My dad patted me in the back, gave me a pill (a pill for the nerves) and sent me to sleep, I was already in bed when the mom of her called, ?I cant contact my daughter, can you call her???, so I called her, she replied ?did you tell my parents??? ?you left me no choice? ?I wont come back home? ?look, you get back in this moment or I am going to have to take extreme measures? she hang up, I called her, the phone was off, I called her friend ?what do you want?? ?take her back, if anything happens to my son, you are going down with her? ?she is not with me anymore? ?don?t lie to me, take her back? ?no, a friend already came to get her and send her back home?

I was relieved, I called her parents again but she hadn´t come back, I went to her house and called her mom ?she already got here, wait a moment in there?, so I waited and after a while her mom came out ?come here, we are all going to talk to her?

I got in and sat on the table, she had her eyes swollen his father had the most serious face I have ever seeing and her mom had puffy eyes too, no one spoke and after some time I decided to begin, ?why don?t you want to have the kid??? ?Because I?m too young? ?that?s awfully selfish of you, to kill a baby because you are not ready? ?I don?t care, I can?t handle being a mother? ?and who says you have to be a mother??? Have the baby, give him to me and you won?t see him again? ?I can?t do that!!? ?Then why don?t you want to have the baby!?? ?BECAUSE I AM TOO YOUNG TO BE MARIED AND HAVE KIDS? I stood up ?THAT´S IT?? YOU DON?T WANT TO BE WITH ME!?? ?NO, I DON?T WANT TO BE WITH YOU? ?THEN DON?T BE WITH ME, I DON?T WANT TO BE WITH YOU EITHER, BUT THAT THING IN YOUR BELLY IS MY SON AND I WONT LET YOU MURDER MY SON? his father stood up and said in a grave voice ?STOP? and we had a much calmer conversation.

After conversation with her parents, I came across with this

1.- she felt too young and that she would not experience life as she should, she felt she was going to have to leave school, she felt that she was never going to accomplish anything

2.- she felt that I had gotten her pregnant on purpose to ?tie? her to me, she felt It was all my fault and that I was a horrible person for doing that

3.- she felt she was not going to be able to love the kid, that she was going to blame him for everything wrong that was going to happen to her

In other words, she was afraid to grow up.

So, she finally accepted to have the kid, after assuring her she would be able to keep studying and keep having a normal life for a girl at her age, that ?nothing had to change too much? and that she didn´t needed to marry me, so I went home, after getting into bed (again) her mom called me ?Vini, come back, she doesn´t want to be alone?

So I went again to her house and I found her laid in the couch with a blanket and hot chocolate, her mother caressing her hair.

?What do you want?? I asked rather bluntly, I was disgusted by her; I hated her for thinking the worst of me, for all the things she had said to me and about me, for how selfish she was, for trying to murder my son, for a thousands of reasons, in that exact moment, I hated her like I had never hated anyone before.

Her mother said in a quiet voice ?well? I have being talking with my daughter, she says she wants to try and be with you, she wants to move to Cordoba and live by the sea like you used to joke about? (my family haves a great business and several places where I could go and work, one of those places is Cordoba where my brother is the manager), well, to make things short, she wanted me to make all her dreams come true (we had joked about all those things when we were together), I laughed flat out in their faces, ?you are telling me that she wants to MARRY ME!?!?, after how she expressed about me, all those thing about me being obsessed with her, being an ass to her?? And you expect me to come running back to her!?!? You are crazy!? she broke into tears and run upstairs to her room screaming ?I won?t have the kid?, her mother told me ?don?t you want to do things the right way??, she still loves you, it?s just that her world was falling apart, she needs to see a doctor because her reaction is not what one would find in a sane person.

So, she went to see a psychiatrist and after a few sessions the psychiatrist called me and asked to see me, I found out that she had a rare condition that is commonly prescribed to 13-15 years old kids, but as she had being for so much time without proper treatment, it was quite present in her, and somewhat aggravated basically, she didn´t had boundaries, she didn´t cared about her getting in trouble, and when confronted with a serious problem she had no way of taking a serious decision and she would rush to whatever she thought would get her out of the problem faster and she was emotionally a 10-13 years old girl, oh, and that basically the closer or more attached she was emotionally to someone, the more prone to ?lash out? towards that person she would be.

Well? after that, I understood why the sudden change, why all the things she said (not being true) everything got into place, and I forgave her, we got married a year a go and we love each other, we have a healthy young 1 ½ year old man and we have come trough a lot, we are both much more mature than before, she is still studying and I am working to get my family afloat (well, I have being working for 3 years actually but that?s beside the point).

so, should the father have a say in the matter of abortion????, HELL YES, OOH HELL YES, but never to force a girl to have an abortion.

*EDDITED FOR EASYER READING*

Ok, finally read the whole story - fair enough; but I don't see that the father can only have a voice if he wants to keep the baby - its too open to exploitation - like, ok, lets reverse the scenario for a moments - lets have a situation where you were the pyschologically troubled one.

In this scenario, lets say she wants to abort the baby still; further, lets say that you, being pyschologically troubled, aren't fussed - but she breaks up with you for whatever reason. In this scenario, someone could easily use the pregnancy as a weapon to hurt her by forcing her to keep the child.

Now, obviously, it was a very different case with you and your wife. But lord knows there are any number of truly horrifying men out their to whom any power over their girlfriends/wifes/mistresses/ex-(any of the others) is something to be used to get back at them for whatever reason - I've talked to at least one woman who had this happen to her, and in many ways, its still in progress.

I'll revise my initial statement, however; it father should be allowed a say, but ultimately he's not carrying the child for the next 9 months, so its not really fair to allow him to have a deciding position on whether or not an abortion should be allowed.

 

[MelziGurl]

Way to prove Fondant's point.

Silly feminists, when will you learn that acting bitchy doesn't make you any more respected?

fem⋅i⋅nism  /ˈfɛməˌnɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fem-uh-niz-uhm] Show IPA
Use feminist in a Sentence
?noun 1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
3. feminine character.

You did prove Fondants point, so stop being self-righteous it doesn't earn you any greater respect it just makes you look like an idiot. There is nothing in that definition that supports your argument that feminists want to be superior to men.

 

[Xojins]

A woman is the one deciding if the baby will be kept, the father should have the choice to not be involved if the conception was by accident. I'm not trying to be insensitive, but if a guy accidentally impregnated someone through a broken condom, you can't force him to be the father. But if it was on purpose, its his own fault if he's getting cold feet. He decided before, no backing out now.

This makes sense. Either the man should get a say or choose not to be involved under these circumstances.

 

[MelziGurl]

You cannot expect a woman to have an abortion simply because her stance is opposite to the mans. Ultimately, it's her choice. Life's not meant to be fair, deal with it.

But this really swings both ways. Life is not fair, but then we ask for fairness? A guy can pick up and walk off. That seems to follow the cutthroat mentality that since life isn't fair you have to deal with what you're given. But if you look at someone and expect them to do right by you, then you just have to also consider what's right for them... or before your hormones write a check your body can't cash (bad pun, but fitting), you really know who you're getting into bed with (another good bad pun).

I don't expect anyone to do right by me personally. As I previously said before, if my partner wished to relinquish his rights as the father then that would be his choice. I won't force him into a responsibility he wants nothing to do with. And that is my stance for all men who want that right. But, you relinquish it until the child is 18 and is no longer legally a child (at least in Australia). I told him that straight off the bat 3 years ago, he's told me that he wouldn't do that but I'm keeping that option open for him. Although for him to do that and not be charged child support I think he would have to sign legal documentation *shrugs*

 

[Drake the Dragonheart]

I did when I had to "help" make the decision once...

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I know what you mean, about it being undeveloped and unborn so it's not "tehnically a life" and everything.

But I had to weigh out the pros and cons, and as I said I love kids, and I'd love some of my own.

So when I was deciding whether or not to "get rid" There was a kid there for a little while...
It's kinda stupid, I know.

No not stupid at all. I doubt anyone would disagree that it would really really help this debate if we could reach a point where we all agree that beyond a shadow of a doubt, when the unborn develops to this point whatever point in the development it may be, it is alive, no ifs ands or buts. I guess if you want to get very technical, it is alive from the moment of conception, since it is a bunch of cells and cells are alive, but as you can see that is pure technicality, and as such offers no real closure. So I should clarify by saying alive AND human. Sorry I have rambled on a bit there.
But no I don't think any reasonable person should hold that against you. You were in a very tough situation, you weighed the pros and cons of everything, and made what you thought was the best decision possible. Is it unfortunate? Yes, but by the same token, it sounds to me like the outcome was going to be bad no matter what. So I myself certainly don't hold anything against you for doing so.

 

[The_Echo]

Reading the OP held the first incident of bringing up adoption in an abortion discussion I've seen in... well, forever. For a while there I was beginning to think people had forgotten all about that option.

Back on topic: The man should have a say, but that's all he should have. Voice your opinion, and then let the woman decide. By that I mean the man shouldn't do anything to push her into thinking his way, be it little nudges here and there or a big forceful shove. (Metaphorically speaking, of course.)

Also, if the couple breaks up over the "we might have a baby" thing, the man shouldn't have a say whatsoever.

 

[HentMas]

snip

wow... i never really thought of it that way... shows that people are not always in their best mind, but that´s why i chose it is "case by case", because yes, there are jerks like that, that just try to "lock" the woman with them, i may have being over reacting by the fact that what happened to me was leaving me with no choice...

but well, i do take that if both partyes are not able to agree in a desition, both partyes should see someone who can guide them trough the desition, and when i say "desition" i am talking about "having the child" not "being toguether", i believe they should have a choice in the matter of abortion "IF" they are willing to take care of the kid (and the women doesn´t want to) i have always felt that "having a kid" is not the same as "having a relationship", if the woman doesn´t want anything to do with the father, well, there are a lot of judges that can take matters in their hands and decide what is best for both the child and the parents (at least here in MX works that way) and if still the guy "claims" to only want the child well, give him the child, (upon running a series of psicological tests proving he is sane).

in any matter, in cases that people cant agree or seem not to be able to agree, they should be aided by profesionals (that is my personal opinion)

 

[HentMas]

Reading the OP held the first incident of bringing up adoption in an abortion discussion I've seen in... well, forever. For a while there I was beginning to think people had forgotten all about that option.

Back on topic: The man should have a say, but that's all he should have. Voice your opinion, and then let the woman decide. By that I mean the man shouldn't do anything to push her into thinking his way, be it little nudges here and there or a big forceful shove. (Metaphorically speaking, of course.)

Also, if the couple breaks up over the "we might have a baby" thing, the man shouldn't have a say whatsoever.

sorry, but could you please read my previous post, it might "enlighten" my point of view, and if you have already, so you think i should have let that happen!?

 

[The_Echo]

Reading the OP held the first incident of bringing up adoption in an abortion discussion I've seen in... well, forever. For a while there I was beginning to think people had forgotten all about that option.

Back on topic: The man should have a say, but that's all he should have. Voice your opinion, and then let the woman decide. By that I mean the man shouldn't do anything to push her into thinking his way, be it little nudges here and there or a big forceful shove. (Metaphorically speaking, of course.)

Also, if the couple breaks up over the "we might have a baby" thing, the man shouldn't have a say whatsoever.

sorry, but could you please read my previous post, it might "enlighten" my point of view, and if you have already, so you think i should have let that happen!?

First, that didn't "enlighten" me. Second, I chose case by case too, so aren't we on the same page? (Not the same sentence, the same page.) Third, it's called an opinion.

 

[HentMas]

snip

i didn´t say that would "enlighten" you, i meant you would know my opinion, and yes, i understand your opinion, i was merely pointing you to a long ass text that took me quite a time to write so we could open a good discusion, sorry if i seemed stuck up my own arse

and yeah, just wondering what you thought about my case

 

[JaredXE]

While actual dictionary definition feminists may not enspouse the belief that men are the weaker and less desirable sex, a great number of vocal feminists do believe that because of the rules pressed upon womyn by "Dead White Males", that it is perfectly ok to ridicule, belittle and outright harm men.

Hell, just look at how men in general, and fathers in particular, are portrayed on tv. Weak, ineffectual adolescents that never measure up to the clever and brilliant beautiful women who surround them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry

 

[PurpleRain]

fem⋅i⋅nism  /ˈfɛməˌnɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fem-uh-niz-uhm] Show IPA
Use feminist in a Sentence
?noun 1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

Last I checked, laws establishing those were already on the books. Why do feminists still plague every corner of discourse, hm?

Do you really think that laws have that much control about how we think in society. Plus not in all countries have females equal to males. So what then? Should all us feminists shut up because women can 'technically' have the same advantages as men?

EDIT

If a man isn't prepared to do right by the woman he's sleeping with should she get pregnant, then he shouldn't be having sex.

And if a woman isn't prepared to have an abortion should she the man she's sleeping with get her pregnant, she shouldn't be having sex. That's an equally valid point.

Don't you realize that sex itself doesn't require any emotional maturity or sense of responsibility?

...no, I imagine you don't. You're probably one of those girls I mentioned before, no? Morally against abortion, but not so moral about premarital sex--sound about right? Or are you just a teenage girl who's talking out of her ass without ever having had sex?

Also, I can't imagine you'd understand the emotional impact on having an abortion? It is not a fun thing at all, and if you think that someone should go into having sex prepared to have an abortion you must be one sick puppy.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Less trash-talking at feminists, more on-topic discussion.

 

[Bob the Average]

I say yes assuming the child was conceived consensually and the pregnancy doesn't pose a health risk to the mother.

 

[Altorin]

so he wants her to have an abortion so he can forget about it? She'll remember it for the rest of her life, especially if she's pro-life.

That seems pretty low to me.

My personal view is pro-choice, and that includes peoples right to choose to be pro-life, lol

 

[rubyblue]

Raising a child is a beautiful experience to anybody who has never had to do it.

My youngest brother was an unexpected pregnancy for my parents. My next youngest brother is eight years older than him. I'm old enough to be his mother. (an EXTREMELY young mother, but whatever.) For six years I've watched him grow up. I've changed his diapers, fed him, bathed him, and taken care of him. That kid has thrown up on me more than once and peed on me more times than I care to remember. And you know what? He is pretty much my favorite person in the world. And there is no better feeling in the world than putting him to bed at night.

Maybe you have Mommy/Daddy issues, or maybe you're just that particularly annoying kind of jackass who by some conundrum hates both kids and women, but still has a healthy appetite for sex. Either way, I'm getting so totally beyond sick of your unfounded generalizations. Grow up.