Poll: Abortion- What's your position and why?

[Dys]

It's a womans body, it's her choice. Simple as that, case closed.

A featus cannot independantly live without a woman, it is not a living human in itself so the "abortion is murder" argument doesn't fly with me, especially when it's coming from bible types who ignore more direct biblical laws (the bible doesn't have much to say on the abortion issue, guess Jesus didn't have the foresight to predict it as a future issue). We don't penalise women who menstrate or men who ejaculate and god only knows how many living organisms perish, and I can sure as hell tell you a lot of blokes ejaculate without the intention of creating life, guess we should condemn them too, right? It's beyond immoral to force your religious beleifs upon others, if you don't like abortions then don't get one...simple.

The "baby should have a choice" argument is also pants on head retarded. We don't let children choose anything, we force them to go to school, brush their teeth and wash behind their ears. It is a parents job to decide what's best for a child, regardless of whether they agree or not. If the mother doesn't feel she can raise a child, it's her choice to spare said child of it's potentially damaging childhood.

We let any idiot have kids yet you need a license for dogs, it doesn't make sense...We go on to penalise people who realize they are not ready for the huge responsibility that is parenthood with this psuedo murder bullshit and it really isn't fair.

 

[Vern]

It's a woman's right to choose if she wants to have a child. If it can't survive outside of the womb then it's not a human being, it's a tumor growing inside of a person. At least people who get abortions realize they're not ready to have a child, so they don't create a human life they aren't prepared, or can't deal with and raise decently thus creating another messed up human being. Or giving it up for adoption and creating a person with no sense of identity or belonging and serious abandonment issues. My personal opinion, sometimes it's in the best interest of the child to abort it before it's born, it'll save a lifetime of pain. But I'm a man, I honestly think the abortion issue should be left to women to decide. It's their body, their child, their choice.

 

[cowbell40]

-snippage-

Firstly I have to ask what you mean by making a human unique. Anything we have can be found elsewhere, opposible thumbs, higher brain functions (anyone remember Alex the parrot? As smart as a small child), use of tools. Again, our dna is less than 1% different from apes, getting more and more similar down the neanderthals. Where do we draw the line for humanity? Frankly, dna doesn't strike me as the best way to do it.

Yes, certain features of humans are also found in other species. This can be said about many different species. But no other species is put together in the same fashion as we are. For as similar as we are to apes (an excellent example), we are not apes. When talking about how similar we are, you simply can't ignore the biggest difference of them all: our ability to reason. That alone pretty much stands us out from all other species by miles in my book.

You are definitely correct at noticing just how similar all animals are to each other; it's incredible how just a few differences in DNA sequence here and there can mean the difference between a hippo and a frog.

-Moar Snippage-

Slight misunderstanding there, the deer was an example of the same number of chromosomes, not nucleotides. It was a demonstration of how such a thing does not make a man. It wasn't meant as anythign but an example.
Dna is far from neat, downs syndrome complicates it (extra partial chromosome, super or sub human? Or neither?), mutations even further. Parasitic twins make it even worse. Are identical twins one person? I doubt there is any neat way to define a human, either intelligence or dna.

I did make a typo there, but actually, both statements are true. Deer do in fact have the same nucleotides, they're just in completely different order.

Down Syndrome and all other mutations are dis-orders. In other words, they go against what is the norm, what is orderly. Normally, DNA is very ordered. If it wasn't, we'd see a lot more people with limbs growing at odd places. Despite needing to be copied trillions of times from conception to death, it nearly always stays in order.

 

[Borrowed Time]

Look, I don't want this to become a slugging match, but to imply pregancy is something a mother can just do and then move on/forget is preposterous. There are hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions for pregnancy that can stay with her for the rest of her life. Whereas this 'child' has no more of a chance now than it did if she had never gotten pregnant.

abortions also cause hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions
Seriously. no slugs intended.

Quoted for truth. There are reprocussions to a woman's mental being as well as body no matter if it's abortion or pregnancy. In fact, an abortion has quite a few more, considering it's completely un-natural and invasive. And don't anyone dare try to tell me that a miscarriage is the same as an abortion. -_- Sorry, not going to fly.

I did make a typo there, but actually, both statements are true. Deer do in fact have the same nucleotides, they're just in completely different order.

Down Syndrome and all other mutations are dis-orders. In other words, they go against what is the norm, what is orderly. Normally, DNA is very ordered. If it wasn't, we'd see a lot more people with limbs growing at odd places. Despite needing to be copied trillions of times from conception to death, it nearly always stays in order.

Exactly, especially considering DNA is in almost all cases self-correcting. Quite incredible really.

 

[Labyrinth]

I go with the idea that if someone's going to have a kid, they should really want that kid first. This would cut out so much child abuse, neglect and all the rest.

Abortions should be available community-wide.

Human life is no more sacred than that of any other creature in my eyes. That cuts through much of the moral bullshit, now on to the rest. No-one other than me has the right to dictate what my body goes through. If I was to refuse anyone a way out of 9 months spent vomiting every day, stretching pains, additional weight, followed by the amount of pain endured through birth I'd be held up for torture.

Abortions are not something that a woman would use in place of contraception because they're hellishly unpleasant to go through. However, there are all sorts of social stigmas surround it. Many women simply feel that they have no control over whether there is contraception used during sex if the male partner doesn't wish to. What does that say for a culture like ours? Even if contraception is used it can fail.

And don't even get me started on the idea of only teaching abstinence as a contraceptive and the idea that "if you have sex bad shit happens and you die!" which is so popular amongst parents.

Banning abortion will mean women turn to far riskier procedures at personal risk because some are more shit scared of having a child than they are of dying. Does that mean one should ban them from having sex or face the consequences? No. To any of those people how would you like me to tell you that you can't ever have sex unless it's to beget children? It's not fair to impose that kind of thing upon women at all.

The kind of women who get abortions are often not the ones which people stereotype that way. Businesswomen who don't have the time for children, 14-year-olds dragged there by their parents and terrified. Women who found themselves in uncomfortable situations far out of their depth and only saw one way out.

So yes, I'm pro-choice, and I'll be dammed if I'll let anyone tell me to live in a situation where I don't have that available should I ever (hope not) need it.

Further reading material:
http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/02/24/south-dakota-to-women-bend-over-and-smile/
http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=283931

 

[lovetropicana]

I don't think a woman who gets herself pregnant for not being careful with her sex life should abort because she doesn't want to deal with the consequences of her actions, but if it were rape or something I think there should be the choice. Personally I think the children who are unwanted should be given to the military for their super soldier projects.

I was almost nodding a bit until i read the last bit then i pulled a irl D: face
........
What are you, nazi?
(before you think i'm flaming and namecalling, nazi did try to breed supersoldiers ...something to do with chimpanzee and human dna)

I'm not a nazi ( not till the induction ceremony anyway) and atleast it gives more of a reason for raising a previously unwanted child. Besides, if there were super soldiers on the battlefield wars would be a hell of a lot more interesting.

I think you've watched too much TV/movies :S
still, if you train your kid in weapons and the art of war and how to fight...
well either they grow close to you and will be your super-bodyguard or will grow to resent you and kill you in your sleep
...tread lightly, your kids will be awesome

Yes, they will be, and it still beats normal parenting, y'know, showing love, helping them become future good semaritans, changing diapers. And that description you gave actually sounds alot like how my dad raised me. Guess which outcome I chose.

tee hee hee reminds me of how my brother raised me
(four year old me)
Bro: STAY IN THE SPLITS! YOU NEED FLEXIBILITY!
Me: Man...these ballet lessons are harder than I thought!
Bro: Yes...now i'm going to teach you some martial arts stances today...
(later)
Me: ...What does punching have to do with ballet...?

 

[Extirpation]

Snip

Why do you say human lives don't matter anymore than a common animal, then go on to argue that abortion will save lives?

Its confusing...

 

[Vuzzmop]

Pro Choice, definately. Sorry to be cynical, but the world has enough unwanted people in it already

 

[Dys]

Look, I don't want this to become a slugging match, but to imply pregancy is something a mother can just do and then move on/forget is preposterous. There are hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions for pregnancy that can stay with her for the rest of her life. Whereas this 'child' has no more of a chance now than it did if she had never gotten pregnant.

abortions also cause hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions
Seriously. no slugs intended.

Quoted for truth. There are reprocussions to a woman's mental being as well as body no matter if it's abortion or pregnancy. In fact, an abortion has quite a few more, considering it's completely un-natural and invasive. And don't anyone dare try to tell me that a miscarriage is the same as an abortion. -_- Sorry, not going to fly.

Are you implying that an abortion is worse than a miscarrage?

If that's the case, I'd kindly like to inform you that isn't so. An abortion can be as simple as taking a drug early in the pregnancy. I hardly think swallowing a pill can be compared to a traumatic stillbirth (they really aren't a fun experience). Not to say there are never negative effects from aborting this way, just that it's completely absurd to rate it next to the shock of discovering a baby you wanted dead (or for that matter a child brough up by parents who don't want it).

 

[Chieffw]

I hereby derail this thread to: Who gives a damn, abortion is legal currently, there are two sides of equal size and none can take dominance, ergo the status quo will be preserved, so debating about it is retarded
PS: I am pro the clothes hanger

 

[lovetropicana]

I go with the idea that if someone's going to have a kid, they should really want that kid first. This would cut out so much child abuse, neglect and all the rest.

Abortions should be available community-wide.

Human life is no more sacred than that of any other creature in my eyes. That cuts through much of the moral bullshit, now on to the rest. No-one other than me has the right to dictate what my body goes through. If I was to refuse anyone a way out of 9 months spent vomiting every day, stretching pains, additional weight, followed by the amount of pain endured through birth I'd be held up for torture.

Abortions are not something that a woman would use in place of contraception because they're hellishly unpleasant to go through. However, there are all sorts of social stigmas surround it. Many women simply feel that they have no control over whether there is contraception used during sex if the male partner doesn't wish to. What does that say for a culture like ours? Even if contraception is used it can fail.

And don't even get me started on the idea of only teaching abstinence as a contraceptive and the idea that "if you have sex bad shit happens and you die!" which is so popular amongst parents.

Banning abortion will mean women turn to far riskier procedures at personal risk because some are more shit scared of having a child than they are of dying. Does that mean one should ban them from having sex or face the consequences? No. To any of those people how would you like me to tell you that you can't ever have sex unless it's to beget children? It's not fair to impose that kind of thing upon women at all.

The kind of women who get abortions are often not the ones which people stereotype that way. Businesswomen who don't have the time for children, 14-year-olds dragged there by their parents and terrified. Women who found themselves in uncomfortable situations far out of their depth and only saw one way out.

So yes, I'm pro-choice, and I'll be dammed if I'll let anyone tell me to live in a situation where I don't have that available should I ever (hope not) need it.

Further reading material:
http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/02/24/south-dakota-to-women-bend-over-and-smile/
http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=283931

adoption also solves plenty of those problems
And it's not always nine months of vomiting every day, stretching pains, additional weight, followed by the amount of pain endured through birth - you could have an epidural, diet, and not all women have stretching pain and vomit everyday. Yes, it's unpleasant, but the kid gets a chance to live
also, "Many women simply feel that they have no control over whether there is contraception used during sex if the male partner doesn't wish to." then where is your pro-choice in that? You just chose a douche and you might as well resign yourself to getting pregnant if you don't use contraception

 

[cowbell40]

Far more significant than a fetus at least, hell some of the things I had for lunch are more significant than some of the real early fetuses.

How can you judge the significance of something that does not get the chance to reach its full potential? How do you know that fetus won't grow up to do something that tremendously advances mankind?

I hate this brand of reasoning, I should judge it as what it will become instead of what it is now? Ok then in my hands I have three oak trees they may be acorns now but you should judge them as their full potential. Also across the street the neighbors have young children who can get rather loud, normally I wouldn't mind but I guess now I should judge them as adults and complain to someone in authority.

Who knows how "significant" that being will be to its loved ones? You can't judge it as it is.

WHY NOT?! Our law treats children differently than adults and treats infants differently than children. Is that illogical now or maybe there's just some special reason why we should judge a fetus as "future benefit to mankind" instead of as a fetus.

Just because it isn't "significant", or maybe I should say useful, right at that moment doesn't mean you can write it off as expendable.

Significant does not mean useful, something can be insignificant and useful, like a comb, it's useful but if I were to lose it I could get another one for little money (and I'm not comparing a comb to a fetus).

It seems that the prevailing attitude today is that "if something inconveniences me, doesn't benefit me, or isn't useful to me, we are better off without it". It's the id working at full tilt.

I never said anything like that but I haven't seen much of that attitude around.

What you are saying is true when referring to things. I think when you're talking about a life, especially one of your own species, you should consider the future rather than just the present. You can judge this issue differently because we aren't talking about just things.

You haven't seen this attitude around? Man, you must hang around with a lot better people than I do.

 

[Logan Badass]

I think a Fetus isn't a living thing.

Not going to flame you, but, a fetus is technically a living thing. If a fetus weren't alive, then EVERY baby would be still-born. This is why you can hear heartbeat through the sonogram, because it is alive.

Anyways, I'm more on the side of no abortion. If you were stupid enough to foink the dude without pretection, than you need to live with the consequences. Although, in the case of a rape or something like that, then abortion could be an option. I still don't like it, but to me, an abortion is only acceptable if done immediately conception.

 

[HotShooter]

I don't think a woman who gets herself pregnant for not being careful with her sex life should abort because she doesn't want to deal with the consequences of her actions, but if it were rape or something I think there should be the choice. Personally I think the children who are unwanted should be given to the military for their super soldier projects.

I was almost nodding a bit until i read the last bit then i pulled a irl D: face
........
What are you, nazi?
(before you think i'm flaming and namecalling, nazi did try to breed supersoldiers ...something to do with chimpanzee and human dna)

I'm not a nazi ( not till the induction ceremony anyway) and atleast it gives more of a reason for raising a previously unwanted child. Besides, if there were super soldiers on the battlefield wars would be a hell of a lot more interesting.

I think you've watched too much TV/movies :S
still, if you train your kid in weapons and the art of war and how to fight...
well either they grow close to you and will be your super-bodyguard or will grow to resent you and kill you in your sleep
...tread lightly, your kids will be awesome

Yes, they will be, and it still beats normal parenting, y'know, showing love, helping them become future good semaritans, changing diapers. And that description you gave actually sounds alot like how my dad raised me. Guess which outcome I chose.

tee hee hee reminds me of how my brother raised me
(four year old me)
Bro: STAY IN THE SPLITS! YOU NEED FLEXIBILITY!
Me: Man...these ballet lessons are harder than I thought!
Bro: Yes...now i'm going to teach you some martial arts stances today...
(later)
Me: ...What does punching have to do with ballet...?

Bro: Nothing, ballet helps your spinning kicks and makes you look silly. It amuses me.
You: *Kicks bro in face and logs on to the escapist*

Is that how the story ends or am I way off?

 

[julia_sterling]

When the brain starts to become functional, No way its not murder. Before then, no way its not a womans right to choose. Every sane person is both pro choice and pro life, the question is where in the growth of a fetus does it go from a mothers body to a babies body inside a mother.

killing a fetus isn't any different then killing a bug

what kind of bugs have you been in contact with? is exterminating insects that live inside of a women a normal thing for you? are there some kind of womb beetles im unaware of?

I hate tell you but in essence the term " Bug" does not apply to insects, there are two different species," Bug" applies to worms and such that do not have six legs , if it has six legs its an insect, therefore not a bug.
to tell the truth, if you took a fetus out of a womb and stepped on it, the sound of crushing it would be the same as if you stepped on a bug , but that wasn't what i was getting at, bugs and fetuses are alive, both have no thoughts/emotions therefore killing either of them wouldn't make much of a difference

i just have to ask, what about what i said to you made you think i didn't know what a bug was, and needed the definition? are you a crazy person? and why didn't you understand that i was being sarcastic? i completely understood what you where saying. you where going on about how the life of an unborn child is as meaningless to you as the life of a bug, and that your perfectly okay with killing unborn children, and that you would prefer to stomp them to death because you enjoy the crushing noise their tiny helpless undeveloped bodies make. i get it, i really do i just disagree. sorry if you misunderstood me.

also since you obviously don't know what a bug is i got this definition for you.

bug (bŭg)
n.
An insect or similar organism.

i couldn't find anything about non-insects being bugs so im inclined to think you pulled your definition out of you arse, but then i guess maybe it means something different where ever you come from or that you have given it some kind of personal meaning, maybe?

It was my entomology class were I got the information, which is a study of insects/bugs, true to say all invertebrates can be called bugs even though it isn't correct XD
I also answered sarcastically, I apologize if I offended you, as for crushing the helpless well that?s life, every day someone is crushed under the foot of reality, sometimes its a blessing never to know how ugly the world can be, but a loss never knowing how good the world can also be

 

[lovetropicana]

Look, I don't want this to become a slugging match, but to imply pregancy is something a mother can just do and then move on/forget is preposterous. There are hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions for pregnancy that can stay with her for the rest of her life. Whereas this 'child' has no more of a chance now than it did if she had never gotten pregnant.

abortions also cause hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions
Seriously. no slugs intended.

Quoted for truth. There are reprocussions to a woman's mental being as well as body no matter if it's abortion or pregnancy. In fact, an abortion has quite a few more, considering it's completely un-natural and invasive. And don't anyone dare try to tell me that a miscarriage is the same as an abortion. -_- Sorry, not going to fly.

Are you implying that an abortion is worse than a miscarrage?

If that's the case, I'd kindly like to inform you that isn't so. An abortion can be as simple as taking a drug early in the pregnancy. I hardly think swallowing a pill can be compared to a traumatic stillbirth (they really aren't a fun experience). Not to say there are never negative effects from aborting this way, just that it's completely absurd to rate it next to the shock of discovering a baby you wanted dead (or for that matter a child brough up by parents who don't want it).

You're not making a fair comparison
The pill needs to be taken v.v. early, (morning after...get it? It's rather literal) and sometimes the zygot naturally miscarriages anyways. So if you compare taking the morning after pill to having a period two weeks after unprotected sex...no, neither are traumatic
If you're thinking traumatic stillbirth where you can see the body parts and the baby's almost fully developed, yes, thats traumatic, but so is taking the baby out piece by piece...same feelings of pain, disappointment, massive amounts of guilt (not saying that stillbirths don't involve guilt), depression...in stillbirths there's the question of what happened wrong, in abortions it's kinda clear. the mum happened wrong. Some women (after abortions) can't even look at a toilet flushing for a long time because it reminds them of their dead baby. some can't eat eggs, or hear babies crying at night. that sounds pretty traumatic to me.

::edit:: Missed a point: Didn't realise you were talking about RU486. It's still far from pain-free/natural feeling

 

[ArchBlade]

I simply hit other because I'm caught somewhere between 1 and 2. Don't get me wrong, I'm about as pro choice as it gets, but I have a hard time as viewing abortion as not wrong. And even though I chiefly believe it's the woman's choice, I also realize that ilegalizing it would simply create more problems for the citizenship than it solves, what with back alley abortions and all.

 

[lovetropicana]

Bro: Nothing, ballet helps your spinning kicks and makes you look silly. It amuses me.
You: *Kicks bro in face and logs on to the escapist*

Is that how the story ends or am I way off?

I never took ballet classes, my timetable was too full of martial art classes
no, we became the closest bestest friends, then he got a job on the exact other side of the planet and i'm all alone but i know he loves zero punctuation so bro if you're surfing the forums I MISS YOU HEAPS
Tho he left me all his weapons <3