Poll: Abortion- What's your position and why?

[ClaptonKnophlerHendrix]

Catholic, need more be said?

 

[Nemorov]

I really don't know how to qualify where I stand on the issue. I have three friends who were almost aborted (a girl and twins, respectively), and that is distressing to me. On the other hand, sometimes it's better that the child not be born if their life is going to be shit, and black market abortions would run rampant.

I guess it's better to have regulations on that kind of thing... but I personally would never do it. I don't think I could live with myself.

 

[Crowser]

Abortion should be illegal unless the woman got pregnant because of rape or incest. Sucks that you decided to not use a condom, but you don't have a right to end a life because your stupid. Give the kid up for adoption if you can't handle it, its a shitty life but at least give it a chance.

 

[Dys]

Just to make this abundantly clear to anyone who plans on arguing this with me, I am against late term abortion. I don't beleive that having options available to women need include messy, dangerous and plain disguisting surgery. I do beleive that women should be responsible, and therefore should act in a humane, responsible mannor. So don't try and argue killing babies with me, as I am talking about undeveloped featuses being aborted

Look, I don't want this to become a slugging match, but to imply pregancy is something a mother can just do and then move on/forget is preposterous. There are hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions for pregnancy that can stay with her for the rest of her life. Whereas this 'child' has no more of a chance now than it did if she had never gotten pregnant.

abortions also cause hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions
Seriously. no slugs intended.

Quoted for truth. There are reprocussions to a woman's mental being as well as body no matter if it's abortion or pregnancy. In fact, an abortion has quite a few more, considering it's completely un-natural and invasive. And don't anyone dare try to tell me that a miscarriage is the same as an abortion. -_- Sorry, not going to fly.

Are you implying that an abortion is worse than a miscarrage?

If that's the case, I'd kindly like to inform you that isn't so. An abortion can be as simple as taking a drug early in the pregnancy. I hardly think swallowing a pill can be compared to a traumatic stillbirth (they really aren't a fun experience). Not to say there are never negative effects from aborting this way, just that it's completely absurd to rate it next to the shock of discovering a baby you wanted dead (or for that matter a child brough up by parents who don't want it).

You're not making a fair comparison
The pill needs to be taken v.v. early, (morning after...get it? It's rather literal) and sometimes the zygot naturally miscarriages anyways. So if you compare taking the morning after pill to having a period two weeks after unprotected sex...no, neither are traumatic
If you're thinking traumatic stillbirth where you can see the body parts and the baby's almost fully developed, yes, thats traumatic, but so is taking the baby out piece by piece...same feelings of pain, disappointment, massive amounts of guilt (not saying that stillbirths don't involve guilt), depression...in stillbirths there's the question of what happened wrong, in abortions it's kinda clear. the mum happened wrong. Some women (after abortions) can't even look at a toilet flushing for a long time because it reminds them of their dead baby. some can't eat eggs, or hear babies crying at night. that sounds pretty traumatic to me.

The drug I was referancing isn't the morning after pill, it's RU 486.

There's a difference between having an abortion two weeks into the pregnancy and having one 8 months in. I don't think anybody is claiming that we should be aborting near-fully developed babies, that's disguisting. There is no shortage of time for the woman to choose a humane way to abort an unwanted child. As for the women struggling to cope with the morality of their choice, it seems to be a reoccuring argument with the 'pro life' crowd that they should have to live with their (possibly bad/wrong) decisions. That's their problem, we aren't forcing them to abort, we are saying it's an option they should be allowed to choose. It isn't for everyone and a big part of my problem with the conservatives trying to block abortions is that they are forcing their beleifs upon me (and other people in society), I am not so hypocritical as to even suggest they even consider abortion if they beleive it's wrong.

It's unfair to completely put the responsibility of unwanted pregnancys on women, but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to act in an inhumane way. The 'pro life' campagners seem to misunderstand that that abrtions aren't always messy operations that murder babies, yet they still support stupid restrictions and pointless bans on safe, effective drugs. RU486 is no less humane than condoms, yet I don't see any sensible person protesting their use.

there's plenty of people who don't mind aborting near-fully developed babies - plenty that think pro-choice for women, no restrictions at all
I edited my post and included what i think of RU486 - it's not like you take a pill and it's gone and there's no repercussions, i think it might even be dangerous because there's no doctor to peek at the progress, there are risks with both procedures.
And what else is it if not a messy operation that murder babies? maybe our debate lies in the semantics of baby/foetus words, but if anything remotely resembling an abortion happened to a live baby it would be instant news calling it murder.

I think it may, I'm in fact beginning to think I'm arguing with someone of a very similar opinion, except who's approaching it from the other end. When I say I'm "pro choice" I mean within reason. I think the condoms are a good thing and that early abortions are not a bad thing, however I can see and very much relate to why it's wrong to kill a baby, or an already developed featus (Though I do not think they are equal).

It's a womans body, it's her choice. Simple as that, case closed.

Oh sure the body is the woman's but the life she's carrying isn't hers, Denying a life is just wrong plain and simple... case closed!

You mean denying a potential life? An undeveloped featus is not alive in the strictest sense. It cannot live without the mother and relies on her completely for all of its bodily functions and nueitrients. If we're condemming people who have ever killed potential life, I sure as hell hope you aren't so hypocritical as to have ever had a wank before because that kills countless sperm cells, all of which are potential babies. Crap, you're profile says your a girl..kinda lost some steam there. Fine then, how about this, every month when you ovulate, your body kills a perfectly function egg off (an egg made up of living cells, which could potentially develop into a human baby).

To the promiscuous: There are consequences to your actions take responsibility for them. Remember the rule of opportunity cost.

I don't see how this even passes as an argument. "Women, you have no rights and by god don't enjoy yourselves. Don't dare compare yourselves to men, who are allowed to sleep around with whomever they want, without any lifechanging consequences."
Honestly it baffles the mind. Sex is not bad, sex does not need have negative consequences (especially when they are restricted to one gender).

Fine, women who sleep around (or don't, and just get pregnant while having protected sex with their husband before they are ready for kids, whatever) are responsible for that. I'm going to assume they are intelligent, educated and moral (to not do so is unfair to those that are) and in this case, it's their choice. It's their potential kid and it's their life. It is up to them to decide for their potential child

For the record, not all abortions are performed on college sluts, as you (among others) seem keen on implying. In fact, I've read that most abortions are performed on women who already have children and cannot support more (I can't remember where, so I can't source it, but at any rate it's a realistic scenario even if my sats are wrong). Should they not be allowed to make the responsible decision because you feel strongly about the point in time when a group of developing cells become human?

To the rape victim: I am so sorry that this unfortunate event have happened to you, but do not take it out on the fetus, it has done nothing to you. Even though it had reminded you of the horror and the pain, there are better options than abortion (maybe put them up for adoption)

Better options you say? Like, perhaps, trusting abandoned children to anyone who'll take them? Let them be raised by complete strangers so they feel completely abandoned? What if they disover later in life that their father is a rapist, I'm sure that would go down well. Better is a very subjective term, maybe it would be nice to let those involved (and educated) decide rather than force our veiws on them?

The "baby should have a choice" argument is also pants on head retarded. We don't let children choose anything, we force them to go to school, brush their teeth and wash behind their ears. It is a parents job to decide what's best for a child, regardless of whether they agree or not. If the mother doesn't feel she can raise a child, it's her choice to spare said child of it's potentially damaging childhood.

WTF does this have to do with this thread, of course babies cannot make a choice, their brains aren't fully developed.

I've had people try and argue that with me far too often, I was just getting in first and pointing out this logic is...well it's not, and that's my point. I'm glad you agree.

I'll just finish this monster post by saying that those who are the most sure they are right, are often the most wrong. I don't claim that abortion is always the best option, I don't think that everyone with an unwanted pregnancy should go off and get an abortion without thinking. I beleive that it is a valid option, and it should be up to those involved to decide whether it's appropriate for them.

 

[not a zaar]

Well on the one hand abortion is good because there are too many people in the world already. On the other hand, it's not available or encouraged in the ravaged third-world countries that it's really needed.

 

[Borrowed Time]

Look, I don't want this to become a slugging match, but to imply pregancy is something a mother can just do and then move on/forget is preposterous. There are hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions for pregnancy that can stay with her for the rest of her life. Whereas this 'child' has no more of a chance now than it did if she had never gotten pregnant.

abortions also cause hormonal, emotional, physical and mental repurcussions
Seriously. no slugs intended.

Quoted for truth. There are reprocussions to a woman's mental being as well as body no matter if it's abortion or pregnancy. In fact, an abortion has quite a few more, considering it's completely un-natural and invasive. And don't anyone dare try to tell me that a miscarriage is the same as an abortion. -_- Sorry, not going to fly.

Are you implying that an abortion is worse than a miscarrage?

If that's the case, I'd kindly like to inform you that isn't so. An abortion can be as simple as taking a drug early in the pregnancy. I hardly think swallowing a pill can be compared to a traumatic stillbirth (they really aren't a fun experience). Not to say there are never negative effects from aborting this way, just that it's completely absurd to rate it next to the shock of discovering a baby you wanted dead (or for that matter a child brough up by parents who don't want it).

Trying to apply the worst case scenario of a miscarriage to a best case scenario of an abortion doesn't work in debate, sorry. Apples =/= Oranges.

 

[riskroWe]

I recognise that rights have no natural foundation, and I recognise that rights are given to things or organisms by the state/society when it meets some predetermined set of requirements.

Society's current requirements are hotly contested at the moment.

I propose that some sensible requirements would be that an organism must contain human DNA, it must be born of the genetic material of one or more consenting humans who are willingly allowing the organism to be born, and it must be entirely capable of living without any direct physical assistance.

A human foetus only satisfies one of these requirements and would therefore not be given any rights. Until it is actually born, it is the property of the parent/s and not an individual of its own, so they can do with it what they see fit.

 

[Labyrinth]

Sucks that you decided to not use a condom, but you don't have a right to end a life because your stupid.

And what about situations where that was used? "Accidental pregnancy" does not mean "didn't bother with a condom."

I'd just like to add something here. I think that abortion, contraception and sex ed are hugely important as a basis for education. They're not issues that will go away if people sweep them under the carpet and it's hardly teaching children to have sex when one teaches them to be safe. Teens experiment whether parents like it or not.

 

[MoganFreeman]

My stance? There are already too many of people here, including droves of abandoned or unwanted children who are ALREADY BORN who could use some loving parents. Though I myself am a big proponent of taking the measures to ensure I'll never need to abort a fetus, I wouldn't hesitate to do so if I did not want the baby. Is bring ANOTHER unwanted baby into the world a greater sin than aborting it? I'd say yes.

Or, to quote the late Bill Hicks, "You're not a human until you're in my phone book".

 

[WrathOfAchilles]

Tough for me to say. It's more of a "Different Case, Different Stance" deal for me.

For instance: A woman is raped. Does she not have the right to abort what wasn't hers to begin with?

On the other hand: A promiscuous woman sleeps around alot, and gets pregnant. For being careless, I don't feel a fetus has the right to die.

I'm with you on that. Just depends on the situation and the person. There are way too many of your "other hand" situations floating around however. People need to be smarter about all the stupid choices they're making and learn from them or others.

 

[Golden Gryphon]

This whole argument would upset me far less if the people who were against abortion didn't also share a large cross section with people against proper sex education in school. The 'choice' makes this one fairly straight forward for me. If you want to keep your baby, go ahead, if you don't feel like you're ready, then have an abortion.

While I understand the people wanting to punish someone for their promiscuity, I'm not really sure forcing a child to be cared for by someone who has proven that they aren't that responsible is the way to do it.

I personally believe abortion should be legal up until the point the baby is out of your body.

 

[Vrex360]

[HEADING=1]PRO CHOICE[/HEADING]

...putting it out there.

 

[Emilie Diabolica]

It's a womans body, it's her choice. Simple as that, case closed.

Oh sure the body is the woman's but the life she's carrying isn't hers, Denying a life is just wrong plain and simple... case closed!

To the promiscuous: There are consequences to your actions take responsibility for them. Remember the rule of opportunity cost.

To the rape victim: I am so sorry that this unfortunate event have happened to you, but do not take it out on the fetus, it has done nothing to you. Even though it had reminded you of the horror and the pain, there are better options than abortion (maybe put them up for adoption)

To the "you or the child" person: This situation is so rare nowadays even that you are just told that, there's a chance that the doctor is wrong, who knows.

The "baby should have a choice" argument is also pants on head retarded. We don't let children choose anything, we force them to go to school, brush their teeth and wash behind their ears. It is a parents job to decide what's best for a child, regardless of whether they agree or not. If the mother doesn't feel she can raise a child, it's her choice to spare said child of it's potentially damaging childhood.

WTF does this have to do with this thread, of course babies cannot make a choice, their brains aren't fully developed.

thankyou. yay for reason!

And if their brains aren't fully developed, they aren't really people. So out comes the coathanger.

By that logic, anyone with less than normal brain function should be allowed to be killed at whim. Hell, of course caring for someone with a mental disability is inconvenient, possibly even more inconvenient than pregnancy. Therefore if abortion is ok because the brain isnt developed, people should be allowed to kill disabled people in their care, if the inconvenience is too much.

See the fallacy here?

 

[Manbro]

Im pro-choice if a woman is stuck with a child she doesn't want then she will make a terrible mother. Therefore the child will have a poor quality of life, as well as possibly having some problems when they develop into an adult.

 

[Emilie Diabolica]

Im pro-choice if a woman is stuck with a child she doesn't want then she will make a terrible mother. Therefore the child will have a poor quality of life, as well as possibly having some problems when they develop into an adult.

adoption. there are so many infertile couples wanting to adopt, and a shortage of children to adopt. The child would be given as good a life as any other.

 

[Laverre]

Definately pro choice, but within limits. The system Wild Cat described is imo a very good one.
You have the chance to get rid of the fetus to a certain point, as long as it is still just a collection of cells, but it's no free pass to do it whenever you want to.
You can add a obligatory consultation to discuss other options (adoption comes to mind, there are many desperate people out there, not being able to get kids on their own) and consequences and so on, but in the end it should be the womans choice.

Several points though

1. For our "hey its living, it's murder" crowd.. kinda hypocritical as long as we kill hundreds of thousand animals every year, that too have feelings and a life and so on. Not because we have to, but hey everyone wants at least 40 different meat types in the supermarket right? Or the new make up that makes your eyes glitter need to be testet on real living eyes so we can see if it's to painful whatever. Oh but I forgot animals aren't humans and god said they should serve us... damn lucky we aren't just overgrwon apes. Speak morales and want to be upset about killing living things, please do it for every kind.

2. For the "well rape is certainly bad, but hey it isn't the babys fault just get it and give it up for adoption" as long as you havn't been raped, why don't you just keep your mouth closed and let the people who have to live with it for the rest of their lives decide?
You can say "hey I understand" as often as you want, you don't till you've been there.
If there are any here, who had the "luck" of being raped and gotten pregnant and decided to get the baby, my deepest respect for a tough decision, I think noone should have to make.

3. And last but not least for our friends from the "hey show some responsibility and it shouldn't be a free ride whenever you're just to bored to use condoms etc.".
You're right you should be responsible and you should be careful.

But especially kids arn't always and due to the way lots of countries handle sex, I think it's not only their fault. As long as we treat it as something to be done secretly and with a mixture of shame and lust, you're really surprised many don't handle it well?
Just accept sex is a part of normal life and start treating it so publicly, tell the kids about it, about the risk, about the dangers, about the fun and how to make good decisions.
Especially the male ones with their fave "doesn't feel good with condom" and "if you really love me you would..." attitudes. Responsibility is very much a male thing too, although we often like to put it all on the women.

Oh and claiming abortions are a free ride, is a bit far fetched too. Being a man I didn't have one myself, but seeing what deep conflict and emotional trauma it created in 3 friends of mine, I guess the whole "hey you could just have sex whenever you want and just abort, if you happen to get pregnant again" seems to be nothing more than a try to vilify a process, which by all accounts isn't something you can easily cope with and quite certainly wouldn't make a hobby out of.

Edit: Sorry forgot one:

For our friends of the "pro life as long as it is normal" really? You would kill the child for it's own good? How noble, but seeing how many people with illnesses, defects, disabilities grow up to live productive and quite happy lives, is it really about their happiness or about you not wanting to cope with a problematic child?

 

[Ben Legend]

I've heard of three different positions on abortion.

1. It is a woman's right to choose whether she wants to have an abortion or not, and there should be no laws inhibiting or prohibiting that choice. (pro choice)

2. It isn't a woman's right to abort her baby, but making abortion illegal would not get rid of abortion. Most likely black-market abortions that would not be regulated by the FDA or anything else would become available and could be threatening to the health of pregnant women trying to get an abortion from them, thus abortion should be kept legal. (somewhere in between)

3. It isn't a woman's right to abort her baby, thus abortion should be made illegal. A woman with an unplanned pregnancy should give the baby up for adoption or otherwise find some way to raise the child. (pro life)

I suppose there could be other philosophies. But if you subscribe to any position on abortion, give your input in the poll and discuss your beliefs.

What about the option that says it should only be allowed if the life of the mother is in jeopardy?

Or, it should only be allowed if the child may suffer problems in life later on. i.e Mental disability.

Personally, I think it should be up to the mother, but of course the real question is when does 'life' really begin in the womb? Because, if you could find that out, then you could argue that, abortion past that is technically murder in the eyes of the law.

At the end of the day, its a difficult topic area and no one view is correct.

 

[Blood_Lined]

I believe that abortion should be legal under extreme restrictions and conditions. Term restrictions, rape victims, age, these all should be taken into consideration as to reason whether or not a person should be permitted to undergo the abortion procedure.

 

[Archer147]

killing a fetus isn't any different then killing a bug

That's screwed up. Imma go ahead and take it as sarcasm.

how is that screwed up?

calling a kid a bug is screwed up, time to sleep. I will debate some more Tomorrow!

i really, really, really hope you don't. one could argue that a fetus is a parasite- feeding off of the host's body to maintain it's own existence. would you call a parasite a bug?