Poll: Abortions in today's society: your views

[The Stonker]

What if both of them are allergic to latex and have to use the pill or an implant?
If that fails, then should they be forced to keep the baby?

If they are not prepared to keep the baby in the case of failed contraception (and they should be aware before having sex that no form of contraception is 100% effective) then they shouldn't have had sex in the first place.

I will probably sound very malicious, but do you recognise a pile of tissue (organs) as human beigns? Do you think that they deserve "rights"?

Has a pile of organs - say, for example, a person's removed heart, lungs, liver, and pancreas - ever developed into a new human life? Never. On the other hand, each and every one of us began as a fetus. The contrast could not be greater and there is no real room for comparison. (I would say that your analogy falls apart, but that would be to imply that it had ever stood together. No offence intended; I simply wish to be clear.)

Plus I'm one of those people who think it should be opted out that you have to sign under a release form so that they can take away your organs when you die. You're dead and you have nothing to do with them.

Not really related to the present discussion, but interesting.

For one, let me set up a scenario.
You're a very succesful student, you just got out and you're about to rise above everything in the business world.
Well, you get drunk to celebrate and you have sex with that guy from the bar, now you don't know him, you don't even care, he just wants to fuck you and then get along.
Now you get pregnant even if you used a condom for instance, this baby would put your rise to the stars to a halt.
What would you do?
And scenario number two.
You just got raped, your pregnant, would you keep the baby? The memory of that incidence walking among you?
I don't think most people could take it.
Now to the insulting my logic.
We're all single cell organisms for about a day if I remember correctly, that means you have nothing which idnetifies you as a human beign.
And BTW.Would you kill a fetus of another animal? Because, fetuses in other animals are extremely similar and have the same purpose.
Plus. We're already overpopulating the planet. Why don't we make it A-OK that everyone can get an abortion and maybe make adoptions a little bit easier?

 

[Zakarath]

I'm pro-choice... Humans(or some) look at a baby/unborn child and see a sacred human life. But at that point it is really far less developed than animals you slaughter regularly for food... it just has the potential to become more. And potential is largely meaningless in this case as if there is an abortion, that potential might as well have never existed. Whatever the potential for consciousness, it is still at that point a no more complex creature than a small woodland animal... we deal in the here and now and the main reason a baby's life is more highly regarded than, say, a squirrel's, is that it is in your genes to value and protect the young of your species. And with 7B of you humans already crowded onto this planet, a such deliberately population-growth increasing outlook as pro-life will have greater large-scale negative effects than the comparatively small gain of the creation of human life.

...Just one dragon's perspective on the matter, though, and admittedly not one with a great deal of respect for human life.

 

[TheNewDemoman]

I love how people say terminate IT.

IT is a person, imagine this. One day your parents decided that you were an inconvience. So they decided to kill you. You would feel no pain, or have no knowledge you ever existed you would just be gone. How can you think of killing a person, because it's inconvienent. It doesn't matter if the child is aware yet. It will be one day.

But hey keep killing kids it's fine right.

Oh and why are Christians even brought up here. I know Christians that think abortion is fine. I don't because I look at my life and think what happened if I were aborted.

 

[Woodsey]

What if giving birth is the problem, or stages in the pregnancy are causing concern for the mother's health?

Whenever an operation's aim is to save the life of the mother, it is not an abortion, even if a necessary step in the operation is ending the child's life. This is because ending the child's life is not the aim of the operation: if the mother's life could have been saved in some other way, then that way would be chosen instead. An operation is only an abortion when the overriding aim is to kill the child. None of the examples you mention actually fall into that category.

If the foetus is aborted to prevent harm to the mother it is an abortion. You're just dealing in very pointless technicalities. I say the aim of the operation is to abort the baby (thereby saving the mother), you say the aim of the operation is to save the mother, thereby aborting the baby by necessity. Same thing, different sentence structure.

And yes, I do believe your opinion on the subject is stupid (note: not you), and not because it is simply different to mine. I don't believe the opinion that mother's should solely decide on the fate of the child is stupid, yet I don't agree with it (not entirely at least). It's stupid because it's based on, "well... maybe, if we're lucky".

When these situations come up the odds are stacked very poorly in favour of the parents; simply saying you know of a case where the doctors were wrong, or where things happened to work out alright doesn't mean you should then state abortion is totally wrong in all cases.

As for my disabilities example, I'm talking about kids who face such a shit storm of illnesses and disabilities that where they are or who's caring for them will make little difference.

And I hope you watched that video.

 

[spartandude]

I love how people say terminate IT.

IT is a person, imagine this. One day your parents decided that you were an inconvience. So they decided to kill you. You would feel no pain, or have no knowledge you ever existed you would just be gone. How can you think of killing a person, because it's inconvienent. It doesn't matter if the child is aware yet. It will be one day.

But hey keep killing kids it's fine right.

Oh and why are Christians even brought up here. I know Christians that think abortion is fine. I don't because I look at my life and think what happened if I were aborted.

If i had no knowlege of my existance and had never felt anything or experienced anything, how does that make alive? its like saying dismantling a computer is wrong

 

[Murais]

I'm not pro-life or pro-choice; I'm pro-killing babies.

 

[Mechsoap]

put a rubber on your wang, then your more sure, not having a child.

Yes, the average person is an idiot, and if she gets pregnant have a talk about it, a looooooong talk, dont jump to say ''get an abortion!''.

 

[Estelindis]

For one, let me set up a scenario.
You're a very succesful student, you just got out and you're about to rise above everything in the business world.
Well, you get drunk to celebrate and you have sex with that guy from the bar, now you don't know him, you don't even care, he just wants to fuck you and then get along.
Now you get pregnant even if you used a condom for instance, this baby would put your rise to the stars to a halt.
What would you do?

That wouldn't happen because I never drink so much that I lose control. I always move to non-alcoholic drinks once I reach a certain mellow buzz. I've never done anything under the influence of alcohol that I'd never do while sober, and I've certainly never drunk so much that I can't remember what happened the night before. People like to use getting drunk as an excuse, but one makes the *choice* to drink and one has to take responsibility for it much as with any other choice.

And scenario number two.
You just got raped, your pregnant, would you keep the baby? The memory of that incidence walking among you?
I don't think most people could take it.

Of course no one knows with full certainly how they would react when tested so awfully, but I have thought about it and my intention would be to keep a child and care for it if I was raped and became pregnant as a result. That's not the only thing I've thought about in terms of rape, though. I have studied martial arts for nine years and practised techniques designed to work against would-be rapists; I've also studied how to present oneself to avoid being attacked when walking from A to B, when in the car (or whatever) and learned situational awareness. I've done pretty much everything I can think of to avoid such a situation and defend myself if I was attacked. The thing is, regardless of whether I had done any of this or not, if I was raped and ended up pregnant it would be my attacker's responsibility, not mine. It's not like it would ever be my fault for getting raped if I hadn't done those things; it is never the fault of the victim. But these things are still worth doing. People should think about how to deal with the full issue - it's better to avoid the danger or stop an attack than have to suffer it (though I can think of many situations where I'd have little to no power to protect myself, e.g. against many attackers or someone with a gun).

I'll confess to a little curiosity as to why you put this scenario to me. Did you think I hadn't ever thought about it? I'm a woman. Of course it's going to cross my mind. And, as a thinking adult, one has to follow through these thought processes and come up with a reasonable response to the mental scenario.

Now to the insulting my logic.

I was not insulting your logic but pointing out what I held to be a flaw. I hope you do not take it personally.

We're all single cell organisms for about a day if I remember correctly

Yes, I believe a day is about right.

that means you have nothing which idnetifies you as a human beign.

No, it does not. One has a human genetic code with all the instructions for further human development. (Whether the genetic code itself is unique is irrevelant, as a genetically identical twin doesn't have a diminished right to life compared to a non-twin. But that the code is human is mostly certainly relevant and identifiable.)

And BTW.Would you kill a fetus of another animal? Because, fetuses in other animals are extremely similar and have the same purpose.

That would depend on how I views animals' rights to life. If I upheld the right of all animals to life and thus chose to be a vegetarian/vegan, I would have to confront this issue very seriously and might decide that it wasn't acceptable. (The related issue of animal testing would then have to be compared to my attitude towards the acceptability of testing on human embryos, but that's another post for another day.) If I was a meat-eater, I don't think I'd have much grounds for arguing that one could never kill an unborn animal if I had no problem with killing it to eat it. Though, upon reflection, wouldn't that only apply if I wanted to eat the animal embryo? So if, say, I eat chicken eggs (and if these eggs would have developed into full chickens if I hadn't eaten them), then I'd have no grounds for objecting to killing animal embryos.

It's important to be consistent, isn't it?

Of course, the decision on whether or not to be a vegetarian/vegan is a very important one and should be dealt with seriously. It is, however, somewhat off-topic to give it much attention here.

Plus. We're already overpopulating the planet. Why don't we make it A-OK that everyone can get an abortion and maybe make adoptions a little bit easier?

How about no? If overpopulation is an issue, then people should exercise restraint when it comes to sex and make sure they have a small number of children that they care for properly and with deep love. Killing isn't the answer.

 

[Gluzzbung]

To be honest, as long as women don't abuse their ability to get abortions, as long as they're not used as an alternative to contraception, I don't have too much of a problem with it.

 

[JenXXXJen]

What I'll never get about anti-choicers is how they believe that what a woman wants to do with her body is somehow their business. Just fuck off; nobody wants your opinion.

If my girlfriend got pregnant and refused abortion, i'd just say "good day to you" and be on my way.

This is part of the reason why men shouldn't have a say in abortion. People like to throw the term "dual-responsibility" around, but half the time the man does this and suddenly the kids almost entirely the mothers responsibility. Nice.

 

[Mandalore_15]

I love how people say terminate IT.

IT is a person, imagine this. One day your parents decided that you were an inconvience. So they decided to kill you. You would feel no pain, or have no knowledge you ever existed you would just be gone. How can you think of killing a person, because it's inconvienent. It doesn't matter if the child is aware yet. It will be one day.

But hey keep killing kids it's fine right.

Oh and why are Christians even brought up here. I know Christians that think abortion is fine. I don't because I look at my life and think what happened if I were aborted.

I use the word "it" if I don't know the sex of the child. But the point is, I don't believe it's a person until you reach a certain stage of development. Technically it would be possible to clone a human being using a cell from your liver, but this doesn't mean I think livers have rights in case someone decides to use one to make a sentient being... I know that analogy is a bit extreme but I think the principle is correct. There is a point in my mind where a fetus is just a group of cells and another point further along where it is a person. I would never kill a person.

And I can't imagine that. No-one can. Without a conscious mind you cannot imagine, and also you cannot fear. Never existing is not something to be afraid of because a) it has already not happened, and b) you can only think about by virtue of it never happening. As James Thurber said, "... what is all this fear of and opposition to Oblivion? What is the matter with the soft Darkness, the Dreamless Sleep?"

 

[mrwoo6]

Plus. We're already overpopulating the planet. Why don't we make it A-OK that everyone can get an abortion and maybe make adoptions a little bit easier?

How about no? If overpopulation is an issue, then people should exercise restraint when it comes to sex and make sure they have a small number of children that they care for properly and with deep love. Killing isn't the answer.

This is not a perfect world. and will not happen. as nice a thought as it is.
we have thousands of ways to "exercise restraint" in the form off contraceptives but the world doesn't work like that. shit happens and people get pregnant when they don't want to be.

I don't see it as killing personally, that's another moral issue but...

Clearly he does not mean we start having sex and go for a lovely drive down to the abortion clinic after every one night stand. he means that situations that are unavoidable like rape or the current problem with contraceptives don't have to ruin peoples lives. you are not the embodiment of every person and others may seek sex as pure pleasure and not for love or to gain children. and when things go wrong people should not have to suffer when clearly medical science can help them.

 

[mrwoo6]

Sorry did not mean to double post.

 

[Zeekar]

This was probably already pointed out, but I'm not reading through 4 pages of reactions and comments: You, the OP, misrepresented the facts shown in the actual article in your post either by misreading or on purpose.

What it actually says is that nearly 600 women became pregnant over the 11 year period that implanon was in circulation in the UK. That is a far cry away from nearly 600 women in a single year, as OP stated. For one, that's not a long time for doctors to have been using the contraceptive, especially since it needs only be reapplied once every 3 years -- that is to say, any given doctor has only had experience with the implant up to 4 times per woman in an 11 year period. Of course there are going to be mistakes and failures in that long a period.

No need to freak out. My girlfriend is getting it, and our personal research has shown that it should be effective. Misinformation such as this is what makes research take much longer than it should and cause way more stress than it should.

So as not to totally derail the thread, though; I believe that most people that have a child unintentionally are not in any financial state or mature state to take care of said child. In essence they are guaranteed to do terribly and create a burden to the state. Have an abortion. There are fates worse than death -- even for unborn babies.

 

[Terminal Blue]

In my opinion, a person has no more obligation to continue to feed an unwanted unborn child than they would a tapeworm or other bodily parasite. A child may not have asked to be conceived, but it also didn't ask to be born. It is incapable of exercising any choice at all, and thus in my opinion the burden of choice falls to the person who is both capable of making that choice and most directly affected by it in a bodily sense.

The emphasis should be on giving that person the information they need to make that choice and supporting them through the consequences, not forcing an ethical standpoint onto them which they have no legal obligation to subscribe to, and right now the system often fails in that regard. I had a friend who aborted because she believed it would be impossible to carry on with university with a young child and ended up regretting it. I don't take that as proof that abortion itself is bad, merely that she was misinformed and not adequately supported to make that choice.

I sympathize with men who feel excluded from the choice, but a choice which affects you socially and financially is not quite the same as one which involves invasive operations or having to squeeze another person out of your body. Even in cases where a man would raise the child and wants to have it, I can't see that as a justification of imposing other people's arguments and opinions onto an autonomous human body.

Incidentally and for what it's worth I was a teen pregnancy and had I been conceived today would probably have been aborted. While obviously that's not a pleasant thought now, I don't think I would have minded at the time.

 

[The Stonker]

Plus. We're already overpopulating the planet. Why don't we make it A-OK that everyone can get an abortion and maybe make adoptions a little bit easier?

How about no? If overpopulation is an issue, then people should exercise restraint when it comes to sex and make sure they have a small number of children that they care for properly and with deep love. Killing isn't the answer.

This is not a perfect world. and will not happen. as nice a thought as it is.
we have thousands of ways to "exercise restraint" in the form off contraceptives but the world doesn't work like that. shit happens and people get pregnant when they don't want to be.

I don't see it as killing personally, that's another moral issue but...

Clearly he does not mean we start having sex and go for a lovely drive down to the abortion clinic after every one night stand. he means that situations that are unavoidable like rape or the current problem with contraceptives don't have to ruin peoples lives. you are not the embodiment of every person and others may seek sex as pure pleasure and not for love or to gain children. and when things go wrong people should not have to suffer when clearly medical science can help them.

Well, what I read from his post is that we should all be good little kids and be virgins until we can get babies.
The thing is that people have something called freedom and I don't believe that a fetus has freedom or any rights at all.
They're just a pile of tissue. That's all. With no mind, with no identity

 

[_Cake_]

Well to me it comes down to this for me. What if the doctors tell her having a baby will kill her? What if the woman is just a little girl? What if there is incest? If a woman has been raped do we torture her some more by forcing this on her too? You can still make a zygote on the pill it just wont stick to her uterine lining, that's like an instant abortion is that wrong?

There are so many factors it's hard to say no never. If you say only under certain circumstances people are just going to lie so you almost have to say yes.

Honestly at this point in my life if I got knocked-up I would have to get an abortion, I can hardly look after myself... and I drink and smoke a lot so the kid would be like 1lb and cross-eyed.

 

[Mandalore_15]

This was probably already pointed out, but I'm not reading through 4 pages of reactions and comments: You, the OP, misrepresented the facts shown in the actual article in your post either by misreading or on purpose.

What it actually says is that nearly 600 women became pregnant over the 11 year period that implanon was in circulation in the UK. That is a far cry away from nearly 600 women in a single year, as OP stated.

It was misread, sorry about that. I've been studying a lot and my eyes are pretty tired, I just made a mistake.

 

[TheNewDemoman]

I love how people say terminate IT.

IT is a person, imagine this. One day your parents decided that you were an inconvience. So they decided to kill you. You would feel no pain, or have no knowledge you ever existed you would just be gone. How can you think of killing a person, because it's inconvienent. It doesn't matter if the child is aware yet. It will be one day.

But hey keep killing kids it's fine right.

Oh and why are Christians even brought up here. I know Christians that think abortion is fine. I don't because I look at my life and think what happened if I were aborted.

I use the word "it" if I don't know the sex of the child. But the point is, I don't believe it's a person until you reach a certain stage of development. Technically it would be possible to clone a human being using a cell from your liver, but this doesn't mean I think livers have rights in case someone decides to use one to make a sentient being... I know that analogy is a bit extreme but I think the principle is correct. There is a point in my mind where a fetus is just a group of cells and another point further along where it is a person. I would never kill a person.

And I can't imagine that. No-one can. Without a conscious mind you cannot imagine, and also you cannot fear. Never existing is not something to be afraid of because a) it has already not happened, and b) you can only think about by virtue of it never happening. As James Thurber said, "... what is all this fear of and opposition to Oblivion? What is the matter with the soft Darkness, the Dreamless Sleep?"

I get it that it's not a person YET. But someday it will be. Someday, it will have loves, dreams, hopes, and fears. Even if we have to wait 9 months for that to happen I am pro-live. But you can't convincve anyone.