Poll: Alternate Viewing of Return of the Jedi | Luke already evil?

[Sheo_Dagana]

Nah, it's bullshit. Luke DID start to go dark in Return of the Jedi (the revelation of who his father was as well as Obi-Wan's manipulative half-truths would do that) but he realized at the very end what he was becoming and threw down his saber, rejecting the path of Vader and embracing the Jedi Anakin once was. I think trying to interpret Luke's "good" gestures as secretly malicious says more about the way YOU think than it does make me question Luke. It's exceptionally cynical.

I couldn't agree more. Luke struggles with the Dark Side no more or less than any other Jedi his age would, plus Yoda even acknowledged Luke to be a Jedi in his final moments during Return. This article just seems like another example of confirmation bias, with people seeing only what they want to see because they somehow they can't wrap their heads around the idea of a non-Sith in charge of the Empire, even though that was totally the case in the now de-canonized Expanded Universe.

I have no idea what it is that makes so many people want to see an evil Luke Skywalker in this second set of films - maybe it's more of the current trend where folks these days seem to think "darker = smarter", but frankly, I think if Luke really were a villain now, it would only serve to shit all over the only good emotional moments in Return of the Jedi.

 

[RJ 17]

Yeah, as others have already pointed out: this theory requires quite a bit of stretching and forced interpretation when there's not all that much room for interpretation. Luke celebrates with everyone, gets to say farewell to the ghosts of the Jedi with a big smile on his face, and everyone lives happily ever after. As someone already pointed out, for this theory to even have ground to stand on it would have to be with the notion that Lucas intended the story to keep going from this point...but he didn't. It was the end of the trilogy and he didn't intend for there to be any more story. As such, Luke's final fate is just as we saw it in the movie: he was tempted towards the Dark Side but ultimately rejects it, becoming a Jedi to the point where he would rather be tortured to death rather than kill his adversary.

Even the crossguard lightsaber looked cooler when we saw shit was about to go down.

I don't think anyone had a problem with the way the crossguard looked...more-so the controversy was about the fact that - as it's designed - many people feel that it wouldn't serve its intended function of catching another lightsaber's blade considering the fact that said opponent's blade would slice right through the crossguard's emitter.

 

[Ravenbom]

This is a cool theory that makes something interesting out of what Lucas clearly intended to be a cut and dry with no depth at all.

I think it's overthinking it and if I had to guess Luke isn't even in this first movie. Not really anyways. Maybe as a force ghost or a holocron projection or even a clone!
After all, what do you do when the clone wars are over and the Jedi are extinct? And secret cloning facilities were originally set up by Jedi Sifo-Dyas, which was never really expanded upon and just barely touched in The Clone Wars TV series. It might have originally been there to clone Jedis as they were in decline already.

In the rebooted Star Wars comics by Marvel they keep making a big deal about Luke's lightsaber, which leads me to believe that his lightsaber and perhaps his severed hand from Bespin were the basis for a Luke clone. At the very least, I think his lightsaber is going to be a big plot point since they've made a big deal about it in the comics leading up to The Force Awakens.

 

[happyninja42]

snip

Well, yes, but it doesn't matter too much. Wise Yoda and Old Ben are canonically morons. Yes, it comes down to bad writing (and Lucas essentially wrote himself into a corner by bringing all these characters so close together), but they're still morons.

Anyway, I'm just having fun with it. Most theories like this are crap, and when I saw MA bring up the father, son and holy ghost, it just clicked in my head to run with it.

Oh I understand that they are canonically stupid, just like all the Jedi/Sith in The Old Republic video game are equally braindead to allow the plot to move forward. I just don't have any problem separating the reality of how an organization might actually behave/operate, from how they are presented in a fanciful tale about them. Sort of like how the military is portrayed in movies, versus how they actually operate. Yes, Yoda/Kenobi are indeed morons as portrayed in the movies.

OT: No, Luke is not evil. This is JJ Abrams doing what he does best, which is to stir up nerd debates to generate hype for his movies. I mean just look at this site alone.

In fairness, essentially wasting an iconic and beloved character is what JJ does best, too. Just look at his Star Wars fanfilm, Into Darkness.

...no, I will not stop calling it a Star Wars fan film.

Heh, the chatter about those Star Trek movies do amuse me. Mostly because of how nobody seems to have noticed that JJ's first Star Trek movie was actually Wrath of Khan. Everyone was losing their mind about Into Darkness and the whole "Khan" thing, but seriously, look at the first one, and compare it to Wrath, plot point by plot point. It's the exact same movie, just without Khan. So in my mind, JJ's made 2 Khan movies. xD

Also, in fairness, I think part of why these theories are popping up is that we don't have anything particularly negative to talk about. Even the crossguard lightsaber looked cooler when we saw shit was about to go down. There's a level of relief simply coming from the fact that this movie doesn't look like a steaming pile of crap.

Also, assuming Luke dies (and I kind of think he does), I really hope it involves some variant of the Obi-Wan "strike me down" line. Full circle and stuff.

What keeps puzzling me about it is how people keep saying "We don't see Luke." ....who else would it be in that shot of R2D2? I mean really people, what other hooded dude, with a robotic right hand would be hanging around with R2? Of course it's Luke. I still strongly disagree with the idea that the crossguard saber looks cooler now by association to cool things happening around it. I will never agree that it doesn't look like anything other than a silly fanfiction idea of a badass saber. But that's ok, I don't lose any sleep over this factor of the movie, it just, looks silly is all. But hey, so did Chewbacca while he was carrying C3PO on his back in Empire. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the movie. xD

Even the crossguard lightsaber looked cooler when we saw shit was about to go down.

I don't think anyone had a problem with the way the crossguard looked...more-so the controversy was about the fact that - as it's designed - many people feel that it wouldn't serve its intended function of catching another lightsaber's blade considering the fact that said opponent's blade would slice right through the crossguard's emitter.

I have a problem with the way it looks. xD Not just the "it's an engineering impossibility" or the "that's not how the saber crystals work" reasons. I just think it looks silly.

 

[Tayh]

No no no.

When he looks at his hand, it's when he finally realised that organic lifeforms simply were inherently prone to corruption, and that he has to kill the Emperor and go off and form an army of robots to cleanse the galaxy.

Incidentally, would he call those robots... "Reapers"?

 

[happyninja42]

No no no.

When he looks at his hand, it's when he finally realised that organic lifeforms simply were inherently prone to corruption, and that he has to kill the Emperor and go off and form an army of robots to cleanse the galaxy.

Incidentally, would he call those robots... "Reapers"?

Or the Borg. Or the Cylons. Or the...whatever they were called in the Butlerian Jihad of Dune. Mass Effect is hardly the first "Kill All Humans" robot race out there. xD

 

[LetalisK]

Someone is looking way too hard into shitty sci fi acting.

 

[LostCrusader]

Well I'm just going by the snippets the OP included from this article, but I don't agree with Luke ending as a dark Jedi. He pretty clearly rejected the dark side and the Emperor's offer at the end.

It's easy to note a change in Luke's demeanor between the second and third installments of the original trilogy. Not only is he wearing all black - something that sat uneasily with me even when I was a 6 year old - he is also more serious - "A little more sinister" in the words of the author of the article - executing much more carefully lain and subtle plans.

Quoted in the article and re-quoted here:

Nevertheless, I'm taking Captain Solo and his friends. You can either profit by this or be destroyed. It's your choice, but I warn you not to underestimate my power

How many times have we heard agents of the Dark Side reiterate that one must not underestimate the power of the Dark Side? Luke then lies about his droids to get them onto the barge - lying? Lies? In a Jedi?

This quote from the article doesn't sit that well with me. Why should being a "good" Jedi require them to never lie? They lie to people all the time, then wave their hand and force them to believe it. The warning can be just as easily explained as a force user warning someone who is ignorant to not start a fight they can't win.

Also, how is that scene where Luke force chokes a guard in Jabba's palace not coming up. I don't think it shows that he was evil, but he certainly could have gone down that road.

 

[happyninja42]

Well I'm just going by the snippets the OP included from this article, but I don't agree with Luke ending as a dark Jedi. He pretty clearly rejected the dark side and the Emperor's offer at the end.

It's easy to note a change in Luke's demeanor between the second and third installments of the original trilogy. Not only is he wearing all black - something that sat uneasily with me even when I was a 6 year old - he is also more serious - "A little more sinister" in the words of the author of the article - executing much more carefully lain and subtle plans.

Quoted in the article and re-quoted here:

Nevertheless, I'm taking Captain Solo and his friends. You can either profit by this or be destroyed. It's your choice, but I warn you not to underestimate my power

How many times have we heard agents of the Dark Side reiterate that one must not underestimate the power of the Dark Side? Luke then lies about his droids to get them onto the barge - lying? Lies? In a Jedi?

This quote from the article doesn't sit that well with me. Why should being a "good" Jedi require them to never lie? They lie to people all the time, then wave their hand and force them to believe it. The warning can be just as easily explained as a force user warning someone who is ignorant to not start a fight they can't win.

Also, how is that scene where Luke force chokes a guard in Jabba's palace not coming up. I don't think it shows that he was evil, but he certainly could have gone down that road.

He was playing a bluff with Jabba. He knew how the Hutt operated, having grown up on Tatooine. He tried to settle the situation peacefully with a negotiation, but the greedy Hutt wouldn't listen. I don't know why this is such a big issue to some people. It's called putting on an air of confidence and badassery when confronting a den of predators. You don't act weak or like prey in that type situation.

Also, about the whole "he's wearing all black" as being some subtle context to his "true nature as a Sith". If we're going to use this as some deep meaning thing (which I personally don't), then you have to also take into consideration what the interior of his clothing looked like after he started fighting and got disheveled. His clothing was white on the inside So yeah, using the "clothing tells you his alignment" theory, then the "dark side" persona is simply a ruse, and underneath it all, he was always a lightsider. So again, Luke isn't a dark sider. Also, I'm pretty damn sure that Lucas has said on many occasions that this was a classic example of the Hero's Journey. And has talked about Luke's triumph over the dark side.

Alsoooo.

The logic makes no sense.

He is secretly plotting some huge, Machiavellian plot to become ultimate evil ruler of the galaxy...so he tosses down his blade, leaving himself vulnerable to the Emperor's "mercy", hoping on the slim chance that his father will turn from the dark side and save him...just so he can now be the darksider? How does that make any kind of sense? A true darksider would do what they all do when they have an enemy at their mercy. Kill them. The dark side way isn't to show mercy to your fallen foe, and then deny an avenue of power presented to you by an even stronger person. You kill your father, and take his place at the emperor's side...until you too get a chance later to take him out yourself. You don't stop fighting, play nice, drop your only weapon, and then rely on the kindness and mercy of the two most evil bastards in the universe to have your plan come to fruition. It's...I mean the more I think about this, the more insane it sounds. It's like the random brain droppings of my friends when we were all high as fuck on pot and acid, and rambling for 5 hours straight about every insane thought that came into our heads.

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

In the rebooted Star Wars comics by Marvel they keep making a big deal about Luke's lightsaber, which leads me to believe that his lightsaber and perhaps his severed hand from Bespin were the basis for a Luke clone. At the very least, I think his lightsaber is going to be a big plot point since they've made a big deal about it in the comics leading up to The Force Awakens.

What makes you think that? Could it perhaps be that that's pretty much exactly what fucking happened in the expanded universe? See, this is what sucks about them de-canonizing the EU. There's a very good chance that this could be something they would actually pull - cherry-picking stuff from the EU when creativity fails or fans need to be pandered to. If they're going to disregard the EU, it needs to be completely disregarded. Otherwise the middle-finger they gave to all the fans will basically have been for nothing.

 

[DefunctTheory]

In the rebooted Star Wars comics by Marvel they keep making a big deal about Luke's lightsaber, which leads me to believe that his lightsaber and perhaps his severed hand from Bespin were the basis for a Luke clone. At the very least, I think his lightsaber is going to be a big plot point since they've made a big deal about it in the comics leading up to The Force Awakens.

What makes you think that? Could it perhaps be that that's pretty much exactly what fucking happened in the expanded universe? See, this is what sucks about them de-canonizing the EU. There's a very good chance that this could be something they would actually pull - cherry-picking stuff from the EU when creativity fails or fans need to be pandered to. If they're going to disregard the EU, it needs to be completely disregarded. Otherwise the middle-finger they gave to all the fans will basically have been for nothing.

Considering how massive the EU is, and the variety of themes, ideas, and characters shotgunned into it, this kind of thinking would effectively kill the franchise.

Then again, I know a lot of EUers that probably wouldn't mind that at this point.

 

[bauke67]

Just a quick thing I'd like to point out, and that I personally find very amusing: the article quoted mentions lying as uncharacteristic of Jedi. This is incorrect.
Firstly Obi-Wan and his "bending" of the truth: "oh your father was dead, in a way"
Then the very characteristic Jedi mind-trick, used all the time to deceive.
My favourite thing, though, is Qui-gon. Not only does he lie constantly, he regularly sacrifices truth(and innocent lives) for the greater good without even mentioning it.
Jedi apparantly have to lie and do so very frequently and not in trivial ways.

OT: Isn't the official reading that he becomes like a Gray Jedi? Neither dark nor light? Or was that scrapped too?

 

[Asita]

Even the crossguard lightsaber looked cooler when we saw shit was about to go down.

I don't think anyone had a problem with the way the crossguard looked...more-so the controversy was about the fact that - as it's designed - many people feel that it wouldn't serve its intended function of catching another lightsaber's blade considering the fact that said opponent's blade would slice right through the crossguard's emitter.

More accurately, it's just not smart design. The point of a crossguard is to protect the wielder's hand by blocking a sword that slid down the blade. It's a chunk of metal which is not dangerous on its own unless used as a bludgeoning object. The lightsaber crossguard is...well, a pair of smaller lightsabers, every bit as dangerous to the hand and arm they are meant to protect as the blade they are meant to block. The effective parallel would be a crossguard made out of knife blades. To put it a different way, the moment his hand flexes the wrong way, he loses it.

 

[COMaestro]

I don't think there should be any doubt that Luke is a Jedi of the Light at the end of RotJ. While he did tap into the Dark Side a little bit with his choking of the Gamorrean guards at Jabba's palace and getting enraged at Vader's taunts to the point where he beats him down totally, he backs off. As someone above said, Luke's look at his own hand was a look of horror, not awe and wonder at his own power. Tossing away his lightsaber was a demonstration of his commitment to rejecting the anger and hate of the Dark Side and foiling Palpatine's plans for him.

This theory, while fun to consider, is just too much of a stretch to take seriously.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Even the crossguard lightsaber looked cooler when we saw shit was about to go down.

I don't think anyone had a problem with the way the crossguard looked...more-so the controversy was about the fact that - as it's designed - many people feel that it wouldn't serve its intended function of catching another lightsaber's blade considering the fact that said opponent's blade would slice right through the crossguard's emitter.

More accurately, it's just not smart design. The point of a crossguard is to protect the wielder's hand by blocking a sword that slid down the blade. It's a chunk of metal which is not dangerous on its own unless used as a bludgeoning object. The lightsaber crossguard is...well, a pair of smaller lightsaber, every bit as dangerous to the hand and arm they are meant to protect as the blade they are meant to block. The effective parallel would be a crossguard made out of knife blades. To put it a different way, the moment his hand flexes the wrong way, he loses it.

Not if the hand is also made of lightsabres, though. Give 'em time.

 

[DefunctTheory]

OT: Isn't the official reading that he becomes like a Gray Jedi? Neither dark nor light? Or was that scrapped too?

Anything that wasn't in the six three Star Wars film and in the new Star Wars Rebels show is no longer canon. Eveything else is out, including Grey Jedi.

Do you have a source for that? Everything I've read says that its all six movies, Clone Wars (The Series), Rebels, the new three movies, and all the new Marvel comics (The ones made after Disney bought Lucas Films). The last canon revision I can find is from 2014.

EDIT: Oh, and the new novels are canon as well.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Forgot about the new comics. I think its probably a safe assumption that those are canon, for whatever that is worth. Going off of what they said when they announced it. Not sure about Clone Wars though. Regardless, I don't think it whatever remained in canon outside of the films is something that is going to make a difference for Episode VII.

Oh, I doubt it. Besides nifty 'hey, so that's probably what happened to X from Rebels,' I doubt there will be much of a connection.

Regardless, this is supposedly a graph that shows the times where all canon material occur, and when they came out (Real Time).

http://www.slashfilm.com/new-star-wars-canon-timeline/

The official Star Wars canon consists of the six released Star Wars theatrical feature films, the Star Wars animated film and television series The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels, and every other material released after April 25, 2014, unless otherwise stated. The upcoming feature film Star Wars: The Force Awakens (along with the untitled Episode VIII and Episode IX) will also be a part of the official canon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

Like you said, probably doesn't matter too much.