Poll: Alternate Viewing of Return of the Jedi | Luke already evil?

[FirstNameLastName]

Without trying to spoiler the article any more, we can trace the implications of his growing fanatic embrace of the Dark Side throughout the climactic scene in the Emperor's Tower on the second Death Star.

For my part, I invite you all to watch the final scenes [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RFYoZ7H67A] with this thought in mind: "Luke goes crazy, snaps and attacks the Emperor, freaks and whales on his dad, gets mindblown by his power after beating Vader, manipulates Vader into throwing the Emperor off a ledge just as the Emperor did to Anakin in the third movie when he cut off Mace Windu's hands, and is contemplating ruling the galaxy as father and son until a genuinely reformed Vader begs him to let him die.

Pay attention to how Hamill acts his character. The weird restrained, distant indecision and unbalance that we all picked up on when we were first getting to know this movie neatly translates as the actions of a snapped maniac who is now wandering into foggy Dark parts unknown. The final scene in this part of the film, where he takes Vader's helmet off, is the most intriguing - he is clearly at a loss to convince his dad to remain on the Dark Side, and struggling to find the words to dissuade him. He insists that Vader allow him to take him away and save him. save him, like Anakin yearned to save his wife?

What on Earth are you on about? I just watched the that link you posted to the final scenes and even with this in mind I still can't see anything that even remotely shows him trying to convince him to stay on the dark side.

 

[Something Amyss]

Even the crossguard lightsaber looked cooler when we saw shit was about to go down.

I don't think anyone had a problem with the way the crossguard looked...[/quote]

Speaking.

I will forgive dumb, impractical, or outright harmful devices if the "rule of cool" is in effect. The saber simply looked dumb in that reveal. I'm not alone in this, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the first person who has argued "rule of cool" on this topic on this site.

Star Wars is full of stuff that's stupid, impractical, or maybe even impossible. From space wizards and their laser swords to space ships that work like WW2 aircraft and fans often forgive it simply because "who the hell cares? Laser swords are AWESOME!"

Oh I understand that they are canonically stupid, just like all the Jedi/Sith in The Old Republic video game are equally braindead to allow the plot to move forward. I just don't have any problem separating the reality of how an organization might actually behave/operate, from how they are presented in a fanciful tale about them. Sort of like how the military is portrayed in movies, versus how they actually operate. Yes, Yoda/Kenobi are indeed morons as portrayed in the movies.

And yeah, I wouldn't mind so much if the writing were more plausible. Or the scenario.

I'm also more forgiving of things which are less essential. This is supposed to be a story about the rise and fall of a space wizard, so I end up less concerned with how the military operates. Hell, I wouldn't care about the politics if they didn't interweave it so heavily into the story.

Heh, the chatter about those Star Trek movies do amuse me. Mostly because of how nobody seems to have noticed that JJ's first Star Trek movie was actually Wrath of Khan. Everyone was losing their mind about Into Darkness and the whole "Khan" thing, but seriously, look at the first one, and compare it to Wrath, plot point by plot point. It's the exact same movie, just without Khan. So in my mind, JJ's made 2 Khan movies. xD

I wish ID was more of a Khan movie. The reason I brought it up is because Abrams seemed to be building towards this big reveal that the bad guy was KHAN! and surprised nobody. That was energy that could be spent crafting a better story. Hell, I thought a lot of the third act would have worked better in a better movie. Kirk and Spock effectively switching places, the nods to the alternate continuity would have been awesome if I still had a crap left to give by that point. In my opinion, people were picking apart things that were not bad (and some that were, like curing death) less because of these things being a problem, and more because the overall movie was...well, not great.

Tying this back to Episode VII, I thought the original teaser was kind of goofy. I have no problem with a black stormtrooper, but I did think him popping into frame as "black stormtrooper having panic attack" was a hilarious intro to him. Now, the full trailer seems to have given this context, and that's not bad. But it looked dumb on its own. The beach ball droid may be technically possible, but it looks silly. The lightsaber in a pose looks dumb, but in the two shots we see it in action, I don't really care all that much anymore.

People ***** more when they're not engaged. That first teaser was full of some goofy crap and nothing else (until the Falcon). The final trailer was full of some goofy crap, with context, excitement, action, and hints of an actual narrative.

I think Into Darkness could have been an amazing movie if the story was more focused on telling a good story, rather than trying to trick us. Which is what worries me here.

What keeps puzzling me about it is how people keep saying "We don't see Luke." ....who else would it be in that shot of R2D2? I mean really people, what other hooded dude, with a robotic right hand would be hanging around with R2?

Well, R2 does get around more than Buddy Cole[footnote]points for the reference[/footnote]. Also, this is more or less where I would expect Abrams to try and swerve us.

I will never agree that it doesn't look like anything other than a silly fanfiction idea of a badass saber. But that's ok, I don't lose any sleep over this factor of the movie, it just, looks silly is all. But hey, so did Chewbacca while he was carrying C3PO on his back in Empire. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the movie. xD

I'm holding out for a Buster Saber one of these days. Or a lightwhip. I want them to go full crazy.

I probably shouldn't say that it looks cooler by association, though. It's more that I care less because Finn makes it look like things are about to get REAL.

 

[WolfThomas]

On a similar note. I tend to theorize that the first Jedi were probably something like Luke became in those films and that the Jedi we see in the prequels is the slow corruption of those ideals. That the first Jedi loved and embraced emotion but practiced self control to keep from using the force for evil like the Sith.

But over the years it became easier to drill Jedi to into the benevolent fascist cult they're in the prequels. Especially if you're in a massive intergalactic battle. You get them as a kid, start telling them "don't love" "don't feel" etc, put a lightsaber in their hand and push them into a fight. Then you win the war and the only survivors are those kids to hammer out a new status quo.

It's like in the Wheel of Time. The difference between an Age of Legends Aes Sedei and the Aes Sedei of 3000years later, the later uses the same powers and has roots from the first including the name but drastically different in practices and culture. Some differences are not necessarily bad. I imagine the New-Jedi I propose were harder to convert to the darkside than the old ones, but in the same time lesser because they had nothing to love.

 

[bauke67]

OT: Isn't the official reading that he becomes like a Gray Jedi? Neither dark nor light? Or was that scrapped too?

Anything that wasn't in the six three Star Wars film and in the new Star Wars Rebels show is no longer canon. Eveything else is out, including Grey Jedi.

Fair enough but if it's an official interpretation of the original films then I thought maybe it still counted. But I guess we'll see in december huh?

 

[The Madman]

Now, I'll admit I'm no Star Wars scholar, but isn't the entire point that Luke began to step down the path towards the dark side same as his father had, only to redeem both himself and his father in the end by realizing this and ultimately rejecting the dark side?

Wasn't that, like, the entire point?

Honestly I'd be pretty damned pissed if the new movies threw that away with a slapdash 'Nah he's evil now' bit of nonsense. Not only would it be insulting to the original trilogy and his character arc within said trilogy, but even worse that would be both contrived and predictable.

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

In the rebooted Star Wars comics by Marvel they keep making a big deal about Luke's lightsaber, which leads me to believe that his lightsaber and perhaps his severed hand from Bespin were the basis for a Luke clone. At the very least, I think his lightsaber is going to be a big plot point since they've made a big deal about it in the comics leading up to The Force Awakens.

What makes you think that? Could it perhaps be that that's pretty much exactly what fucking happened in the expanded universe? See, this is what sucks about them de-canonizing the EU. There's a very good chance that this could be something they would actually pull - cherry-picking stuff from the EU when creativity fails or fans need to be pandered to. If they're going to disregard the EU, it needs to be completely disregarded. Otherwise the middle-finger they gave to all the fans will basically have been for nothing.

Considering how massive the EU is, and the variety of themes, ideas, and characters shotgunned into it, this kind of thinking would effectively kill the franchise.

Then again, I know a lot of EUers that probably wouldn't mind that at this point.

Yeah? Well that's what happens when you ignore over 20 years of lore from talented authors and fans alike just so Disney can shove THEIR version of Star Wars under our noses, asking us to pretend those stories never existed, and then taking from it because they can't come up with anything.

I'm not talking about them borrowing themes or the random idea here or there, I'm talking about them straight up ripping characters and stories that have already been told. Like the idea of Luuke? Or Thrawn? Or inserting Mara Jade out of nowhere, even though it's too late for that? That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Taking existing writing and working it in wherever they want. The EU is huge, but if that's creatively daunting to these filmmakers, maybe they should have stayed away entirely. If that 'kills the franchise' then so be it. That's what they chose to do when they announced it was all non-canon in the first place.

But then I am the kind of person that wonders why Square-Enix is wasting money, time, and resources on an FFVII update when they could be putting it towards making a new Final Fantasy game that doesn't suck. So take that with a grain of salt, especially since I'm one of these EUers.