Poll: American?s disillusion with WW2
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Have you never heard of the race to berlin? Germany was split in half and the russian would have gone farther into europe. I don't have a map of the soviet bloc on me but i'm gonna venture to say that majority if not all the areas Russian invaded turned into a communist puppet state. The reason russia didn't keep going farther towards france was because american forces where already there.Crystalite said:
The first scenario is germany if they had withstood the onslaught of british and russian powers. Keeping some of its conquered territory but not all of it. It would give up quite a bit of territory in exchange for peace, so you still have a fascist germany that IF recovered at that point would be ready to fight again WITH Hilter still at the helm.
You're just saying that because people usually cite Russian Eastern Front casualties as demonstration of what the Soviets accomplished and neglect to mention Reich casualties as well. The Overman figures give about 5.1 million total Reich military dead on the Eastern Front, and total Reich military dead in WWII is often given in the 5.5-6 million range.Skullkid4187 said:
In other words, the Battle of Stalingrad by itself may very well have gotten more Third Reich soldiers killed than the entirety of all actions in western Europe.
And let's not even get started on the amount of Axis equipment that got chewed up in the East...
Hold up, some of those figures are obvious nonsense. For example, the USSR is know to have produced about 140,000 combat aircraft during WWII, and the USA 250,000. Your 44% number implies that the USSR fielded a total of 140,000/.56 = 250,000 combat aircraft, which would imply that the US gave a whopping 110,000 combat aircraft to the USSR, which would amount to over 40% of total US combat aircraft production!
Meanwhile, considering that the USSR actually built more heavy armoured vehicles during the war than the US did, your armoured vehicle percentage implies that the USA gave almost ALL of their tanks to the Soviets!
This looks even more ridiculous when you consider that lend-lease is known to have given several times more stuff to the UK than it gave to the USSR! How could that be possible if they gave everything to the USSR?
A few of your values seem to match up reasonably close with what I've seen before; the majority of front-line-use Soviet trucks, for example, is always stated to have been majority US-made. But many of your values (such as armored vehicles and planes) seem to be not the percentage given to the USSR but, rather, US production of a certain type as a percentage of total allied production. Or something. Whatever it is, it's obviously not what you've labelled it as.
Indeed, and those did cause substantial damage.
What's the scope of the 2,000,000? It certainly would not have been 2,000,000 focused on air defense at any given time, since the Wehrmacht as I understand it didn't deploy 2,000,000 in the west TOTAL during the interlude.
While their actions arguably did enable some German success in the late 1930's, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact did not declare any sort of alliance. Unless you consider all no-shooting (ceasefire-ish?) agreements to be alliances. At which point you can go ahead and consider North Korea and South Korea to be allies.
Alliances imply that the nations would support each other. Nobody is under the illusion that the Reich and the USSR weren't actively trying to figure out how to screw each other over.
Both the A-bomb OR the invasion of had enormous impact. The latter actually arguably inflicted more Japanese casualties, as it were.
The war was on tipping points enough early on that the allies may very well have lost at least some theaters were you to reduce or remove the contributions of any nation.
And one final thing, with respect to the thread as a whole:
It's ridiculous that the people in this thread have only really been arguing about the influence of 3 nations: The US, the UK, and the USSR. World War II was a lot bigger than that. And how you could mention those 3 huge contributors and completely forget the influence of China boggles the mind as well.
i think its because we are forced to learn about it every year. and that as a nation we cannot understand that things die now and then, as i found out in my German class that they have commercials that they cannot show in the US because its "Cruel" , yet we have the most people in jail.
I know 5 million people died! Sucks for them! can you tell my howmagnets chemistry works now?
I know 5 million people died! Sucks for them! can you tell my how
A lot of Americans really do think that we're responsible for saving the world, but then we're arrogant about everything. The Russians played more than a large part, and the British people's determination to withstand the bombing of Britain was also a major factor. The German army's many tactical mistakes also led to the downfall of Nazi Germany. It was not just the US riding in on a silver steed to combat the evil Nazis.
Even D-Day which is heralded as the huge turning point in the war was a collaboration between American, British, and Canadian troops.
Even D-Day which is heralded as the huge turning point in the war was a collaboration between American, British, and Canadian troops.
I bet most of the people in this thread claiming to be from other countries are actually Americans. as for me I am american and from a strictly historical standpoint you cant argue that america helped turn the tide of that war. if you get your historical information from american video games than yes you will be getting an exaggerated version but if you talk to and american who actually knows history or any WWII vet. for that matter you'll know that the war would have been much worse for Europe had america not steeped in. we did not single handedly win though and had Russia had not been willing to take millions of casualties holding out against Germany than the war would have also been completely different. america has allot of people who don't fit the american stereotype so please don't generalize.
What about the Russians? What about the Chinese? German and Japanese aggression didn't just start when Poland was invaded you know. It stretches back to the mid-30's in my opinion.
A lot of people were involved. Countless people on all sides played their part. No one country can claim the glory for defeating fascism.
A lot of people were involved. Countless people on all sides played their part. No one country can claim the glory for defeating fascism.
Speaking as an American, I paid attention in history class and I know better than to say "OMG, America destroyed those Nazis". We helped, but we were not the end-all-be-all. That distinction goes to Russia.
I'm from Aus and I think it's mostly just the media. Games and movies and stuff about WW2 are made in America for Americans- therefore they are about Americans, because Americans are less likely to be interested in other countries during the war. This stuff then gets exported and because it's made by respected developers/studios a lot of people watch it. Unfortunately I think a lot of games just use it as an excuse for lazy writing- "you're American- kill Nazis! Jump on Mecha Hitler and stab him in the face with the US Flag!"
You know who really deserves the praise? The Chinese. Like it or not, they were holding off the Japanese in northern China years before the war started, and even after events like the Rape of Nanking, which was meant to completely demoralize them, they fought on. The Russians deserve way more praise then the British, French or Canadians too. They lost 26 MILLION civilians and soldiers compared to the just over a million casualities from Britain, France, and Canada combined (that's both soldiers and civilians again too). The USSR lost almost 15% of its population in this war, World War 2 was primarily a German-Soviet conflict. When D-Day occured in 1944, there were only about 35 German divisions in France, while there was over 200 on the Eastern Front. Funny how your own bias lead you to believe that the Western powers were so vital to the war, eh?
I honestly don't know any Americans who believe what you just said, most are aware that other forces played major roles. Methinks you may just be taking American media, like Michael Bay's Pearl Harbor, too seriously. Then again I only know like four Americans and they're all well-informed, so it might just be that.
I honestly don't know any Americans who believe what you just said, most are aware that other forces played major roles. Methinks you may just be taking American media, like Michael Bay's Pearl Harbor, too seriously. Then again I only know like four Americans and they're all well-informed, so it might just be that.
Americans generally do have quite a warped view of the European theater. Many see it as a mainly American effort. In reality it was a joint venture from the Soviets, Americans, British and Canadians. Most of the actual fighting was done by the Soviets with the British stuck largely on the defensive until the shortly before the arrival of American troops in Africa. At that point forward the British and Americans did about an equal amount of fighting in both Italy and France if I remember correctly. Though I doubt the allies could have won the war without American involvement. American supplies did much to aid the Soviets in the East and the British in the West. The American daytime raids were also much more effective in destroying German infrastructure as well, since the British began exclusively doing area effect Night raids. From where I see it without any of the Three we could not have won in Europe.
That being said Americans were by and large the main Allied players in the Pacific Theater. While Americans may not have done all the fighting a vast majority of victories against Japan were American won. Of course the Chinese did a fantastic job of preventing Japan from using many forces they had stationed there against US troops, but they never really ever took a real offensive against Japan, seeing as they could barely hold them off.
That being said Americans were by and large the main Allied players in the Pacific Theater. While Americans may not have done all the fighting a vast majority of victories against Japan were American won. Of course the Chinese did a fantastic job of preventing Japan from using many forces they had stationed there against US troops, but they never really ever took a real offensive against Japan, seeing as they could barely hold them off.
Yeah, well every major allied country had a crucial part in ending the war.
That being said, we Americans did ultimately end the war, the English were pretty fierce, holding out for all those years under constant German torment, and the French, while defeated... Well they tried... Kinda.
But ultimately, without our help the war would have dredged on much longer with many more lives claimed and an uncertain victor. We weren't like the superheroes come to save the day, more or less the final piece in the puzzle or something along the lines of that.
We couldn't have single-handedly won the war just as the English or French couldn't have.
Hell, even Germany, which was scarily powerful at the time, needed allies.
And that's my rambling ramble.
Thanks for trying to start an anti America flamewar, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
That being said, we Americans did ultimately end the war, the English were pretty fierce, holding out for all those years under constant German torment, and the French, while defeated... Well they tried... Kinda.
But ultimately, without our help the war would have dredged on much longer with many more lives claimed and an uncertain victor. We weren't like the superheroes come to save the day, more or less the final piece in the puzzle or something along the lines of that.
We couldn't have single-handedly won the war just as the English or French couldn't have.
Hell, even Germany, which was scarily powerful at the time, needed allies.
And that's my rambling ramble.
Thanks for trying to start an anti America flamewar, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Unfettered optimism?Ninjamedic said:
Wouldn't be surprised if they were written there, too. I'm pretty sure American history is beyond the grasp of the majority of Americans. Especially since Jefferson's being phased out by committee.Judgement101 said:Written in America but made in China
eh the only people who didn't do anything is France even if their country was the battle field since all they had were the French who escaped if anyone "won" the war I would have to give it to the Russians but no one wants to give it to commies.
Hey genius. If the French deserve the credit, why did your own Navy have to sink one of their fleets? The Ameri-hate that runs rampant on the web is just retarded.
I am a US Army officer and I have no problems sharing credit when said credit is due, nor do I have any pressing need to claim credit. Even in such cases where I (or my nation) most deserve it.
ALL nations who took a stand against terror and tyranny deserve praise for their efforts, and for their sacrifices. You may crawl back into your silly little ultra-national world now.
I am a US Army officer and I have no problems sharing credit when said credit is due, nor do I have any pressing need to claim credit. Even in such cases where I (or my nation) most deserve it.
ALL nations who took a stand against terror and tyranny deserve praise for their efforts, and for their sacrifices. You may crawl back into your silly little ultra-national world now.
