Poll: (Another) feminism discussion

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Fox12

AccursedT- see you space cowboy
Jun 6, 2013
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I've noticed the last few weeks, and the last few days in particular, have been pretty heavy on the feminism topic, and how women are portrayed in video games. With the newest Sarkeesian video being released on the heels of the controversial Dragons Crown game, it seems like this has been one of the more common threads. Even the newest Jimquisition touched on the subject. While certain threads tended to deal with a specific example of (supposed) sexism, I was curious to see what people thought about the issue as a whole.

I noticed I seemed to be with the minority on this particular topic, in that I felt that a strong argument could be made that Dragons Crown and Hitman Absolution had some very sexist elements in them, and I even found myself agreeing with *some (certainly not all) of what Anita Sarkeesian said. A lot of people argued that games like Dragons Crown were a throw back to classic games, and shouldn't be taken seriously. Others said that the art style was an artistic choice that should be respected. Still more said that there was nothing wrong with sexualized women in games, because sex is natural, and is nothing to be ashamed of. The insinuation is that if you have a problem with scantily clad women, you must be a prude who opposes women expressing their sexuality, or you must be uncomfortable with sex in general.

In all honesty, I can't help but feel like these comments miss the point. I think a lot of people are irritable about the above games, not because there are sexually attractive women in them, but because sexual attraction seems to be their defining, and sometimes only, trait. They are typically valued or noticed for their sexuality, and nothing more. The creator of Dragons Crown basicly said he exagerated all the characters features to stand out, and it is pretty obvious which features he chose to emphasize. It also seemed a little juvenile to respond to criticism with what amounts to a gay joke.

I don't think video games being throwbacks necessarily validates keeping old fashioned ideas either. Plenty of Indie games kept the best aspects of classic games while successfully tailoring them to modern audiences through game play features.

I guess my main point is that there is a difference between a female character who is comfortable with her sexuality in a healthy and mature way, and a character who is essentially being exploited. A female warrior walking around in a metal bikini and high heels is clearly being exploited, as they are wearing completely inappropriate (in a practical combat sense) clothing. Was the new tomb raider really less attractive because she wasn't sporting an unrealistically massive chest? Personally I always found a well written character with an engaging personality more attractive, and kind of feel like a lot of creators try to cover up for a lack of writing skill by applying fan service.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against attractive women in games, I just feel that when their looks are their primary character trait, there's an issue. You really do begin to think of that person as an object. Tifa Lochheart, Aerith Gainsborough, Elena Fisher, and several characters from Mass Effect are quite attractive, but they are all well written characters with fully defined personalities completely independent of their appearance. I also don't have problems with sexual content in video games, as long as it serves the story (Mass Effect). The difference is that one is a sexy character who may or may not have a personality tacked on, while the other is a well rounded, confident, believable character who just happens to be attractive.

I wan't emphasize that I'm not insulting the taste of people who like the above games, most people seem to agree that their quite fun. It's easy, I'm sure, to appreciate them completely independently of any fanservice whatsoever, and that's fine. All I'm saying is that I think some of these criticisms atleast make a few good points, so for the sake of it I'll play devils advocate.

But what do you think? Should games cut out some of the fanservice, or are they fine as they are?
 

Norithics

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Jul 4, 2013
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Okay, here's the problem with the discussion on sexism in general:
It uses old tools.

It used to be, women couldn't vote, had less rights, and society was pretty blatantly standing on their feet. The obvious solution was to yell, "Hey jackass, get off my feet!" Because honestly nothing short of that was going to work! You can't win big things like rights with calm suggestions.

However, now the problems that face women (aside from reproductive rights, those are still what I'd consider a "major issue") are much more subtle. They have less to do with men actively holding them down, and more to do with passive assumptions that are made about both sexes. Nobody stands up and says "hey, we shouldn't let any girls in our treehouse" anymore, but most of the passive social systems that were in place from that age are still around for the most part, so there are all kinds of invisible, suggestive elements to society that push you one way or another. Just like for boys, you're still put up against some measure of not wanting to appear weak- if sexism didn't exist, we wouldn't have that, either.

But it's not big, obvious sexism, it's very subtle, deeply ingrained sexism- and that's really hard to fight. You can't yell and rally and put up big political bills to fix these very subtle problems with the way our society works; you have to work with people on an individual level and help everyone come to a more enlightened understanding. This happened with gay people: a loud initial cry for more, followed by a passive filling in of enlightenment regarding the people in question. The second part didn't come from a bullhorn; it came over lunch with co-workers and neighbors.

Before I'm accused of posting off topic, that's where it comes down. We can't solve issues like misrepresentation in video games, of all things, with shouting and labels and defamation; we have to convince both women to push down those career paths, and men to reach out in their minds and try a different approach every so often. Asking to take away things like fanservice and the like aren't going to do anything positive- it'll just cause a backlash and the void of more substantial content will still be there. But if we take it as a challenge and encourage people to put their creative powers to the problem, I think we could see a very positive shift that offers new experiences, but doesn't deprive anybody.
 

ShinyCharizard

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Oct 24, 2012
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I still don't have a fucking clue what the issue is here. Why do people care so much about the artstyle in these games? How does it possibly affect anyone negatively at all?

Frankly anyone who seriously finds this kind of thing offensive needs to fucking reconsider their priorities in life.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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I think people have the right to ***** about whatever they want to ***** about, but at the same time I think artists/developers have that same right to make whatever video game they want, and put whatever they want in it, it's a fucking video game, not real life, if you can't seem to handle sexism/racism/etc... in video games (just as there are in books/movies/etc..) then maybe you shouldn't be playing those games.

if a developer wants to cater to an audience and make a fulfilling game that doesn't have any sort of "isms", then shoot, go for it. if a dev wants to make a game that has some material that could be considered sexist by some, by all means, MAKE THE GAME. if it doesn't sell, then the game will just sink as it is and the dev will have to make a choice about it after the fact on what to do next, if it sells well then clearly people either can A)deal with things or B) they realize it's a game and can just enjoy it for what it is. (glares at news stations for constantly putting violent games under the magnifying glass)
 

thebakedpotato

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Jun 18, 2012
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Fox12 said:
In all honesty, I can't help but feel like these comments miss the point.
Everybody's missing the point.
Rather than, ya know, researching your job and pay, comparing it to your coworkers to establish pay queality and if not, securing it. Then using said pay equality to say... leverage your wealth to engage in a relationship with less dependence on gender roles and stereotypes. And overall advancing the cause of gender equality and stereotypes. You're making a thread. On the internet. About video games.

Crusading for equal representation in a medium that is, at its core, interactive escapism.

It seems very much like people arguing over burning an effigy to the real issues and inequality. Because it is easier than building something up for themselves.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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Yes, games have an issue with the depiction of women.

I would hope this is obvious to anyone with two functioning brain cells to rub together.

It's not the specific examples that are the problem. It's the trend that is a problem.

A female character being kidnapped then rescued by a guy? Not a problem. Female characters in Dragon's Crown being ridiculously sexualized? Not a problem.

Every single fucking female character ever either being ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped? Yeah, yeah... that's a problem.
 

Abomination

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Dec 17, 2012
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Zhukov said:
Every single fucking female character ever either being ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped? Yeah, yeah... that's a problem.
But... not every single female character is ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped...

So there's no problem! Hooray! We solved gender equality in games!
 

thebakedpotato

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Jun 18, 2012
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Abomination said:
Zhukov said:
Every single fucking female character ever either being ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped? Yeah, yeah... that's a problem.
But... not every single female character is ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped...

So there's no problem! Hooray! We solved gender equality in games!
What about the rest of the world?
 

Abomination

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Dec 17, 2012
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thebakedpotato said:
Abomination said:
Zhukov said:
Every single fucking female character ever either being ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped? Yeah, yeah... that's a problem.
But... not every single female character is ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped...

So there's no problem! Hooray! We solved gender equality in games!
What about the rest of the world?
That's fine too, because not every single woman is ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped!

I guess what I'm not being very direct about here is that the idea of if someone is being sexualized or disrespected or portrayed in a negative light is subjective.

Some might view Dragons Crown as the worst thing ever for women, while others don't see what the issue is, and some might think "that's exactly how I want my women to look, they should ALL conform to those standards!".

And all the grey areas between those three... though I imagine many won't be anywhere near camp that thinks all women should conform in that manner.

As per usual folks are kicking up a stink about shit that doesn't matter and about something they're not willing to put the effort in to proving there is an alternative that could be pursued.
 

thebakedpotato

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Jun 18, 2012
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Abomination said:
thebakedpotato said:
Abomination said:
Zhukov said:
Every single fucking female character ever either being ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped? Yeah, yeah... that's a problem.
But... not every single female character is ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped...

So there's no problem! Hooray! We solved gender equality in games!
What about the rest of the world?
That's fine too, because not every single woman is ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped!
Gender equality in the rest of the world solved, then?
 

Abomination

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Dec 17, 2012
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thebakedpotato said:
Abomination said:
thebakedpotato said:
Abomination said:
Zhukov said:
Every single fucking female character ever either being ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped? Yeah, yeah... that's a problem.
But... not every single female character is ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped...

So there's no problem! Hooray! We solved gender equality in games!
What about the rest of the world?
That's fine too, because not every single woman is ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped!
Gender equality in the rest of the world solved, then?
Exactly! Well done people, we can all go home.
 

Caiphus

Social Office Corridor
Mar 31, 2010
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thebakedpotato said:
Abomination said:
thebakedpotato said:
Abomination said:
Zhukov said:
Every single fucking female character ever either being ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped? Yeah, yeah... that's a problem.
But... not every single female character is ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped...

So there's no problem! Hooray! We solved gender equality in games!
What about the rest of the world?
That's fine too, because not every single woman is ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped!
Gender equality in the rest of the world solved, then?
As long as one woman is perfectly safe, then we have solved gender equality!

Completely serious about that, of course.

Also, OP even added "(Another)" into the title of his thread, and still made it. HE KNEW.

Edit: Stick Gloria Estefan in a concrete bunker and call it a day.

Edit2: Waitthat'skidnappingohnoooooo
 

IllumInaTIma

Flesh is but a garment!
Feb 6, 2012
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I think the problem is not that we have poorly written/overly sexualized/damsel in distress/etc female characters. Problem is that we have TOO much of them! Just like we have too much grizzled/middle-aged/alcoholic male characters.
All my favorites character are mostly females, like Chie, Arya and Ellie and that's why I want more of them! I want more well written and strong female characters simply because those characters really click with me.
As Ashly Burch once said "if all you got is titties it makes titties less sweet". Just watch this god damn it.
<youtube=MA-g-1ebGEM>
 

Voulan

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Jul 18, 2011
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ShinyCharizard said:
I still don't have a fucking clue what the issue is here. Why do people care so much about the artstyle in these games? How does it possibly affect anyone negatively at all?

Frankly anyone who seriously finds this kind of thing offensive needs to fucking reconsider their priorities in life.
It's not just about art style, but about sameness and pandering to only one demographic. Is it really too much to want to play as a reasonable female character more often than 30 year old white guys, or a even remotely realistic character that isn't exaggerating what is often considered the only marketable aspect of women? When the few female options are ridiculous to the point that they have no agency or purpose other than to sell the game, there's no point to them at all, and it's high time gaming started diversifying itself.

Also, telling people to effectively get over it is incredibly rude and bigoted. You are a male that gets pandered to, so of course you have no issues with it - but about about women like me?
 

ShinyCharizard

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Oct 24, 2012
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Voulan said:
ShinyCharizard said:
I still don't have a fucking clue what the issue is here. Why do people care so much about the artstyle in these games? How does it possibly affect anyone negatively at all?

Frankly anyone who seriously finds this kind of thing offensive needs to fucking reconsider their priorities in life.
It's not just about art style, but about sameness and pandering to only one demographic. Is it really too much to want to play as a reasonable female character more often than 30 year old white guys, or a even remotely realistic character that isn't exaggerating what is often considered the only marketable aspect of women? When the few female options are ridiculous to the point that they have no agency or purpose other than to sell the game, there's no point to them at all, and it's high time gaming started diversifying itself.

Also, telling people to effectively get over it is incredibly rude and bigoted. You are a male that gets pandered to, so of course you have no issues with it - but about about women like me?
I can respect that. However I find the notion of someone being actually seriously offended by this to be completely ridiculous.
 

TehCookie

Elite Member
Sep 16, 2008
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Games don't need less fanservice, they need more MANSERVICE!

I don't see anything wrong with games made for guys, they can have their titty monsters (as long as they don't try to defend it with some deeper meaning, there is nothing wrong with liking hot women). I wish there were more games that sexualized men, DMC and MGS are really the only ones I can think of that have obvious manservice scenes.

When it comes to writing, games need better writing overall, not just women. However I don't see how a well written eyecandy makes it better when people can choose to ignore it. Lara Croft was suppose to be female Indiana Jones but the fans were the one who just wanted sex. I couldn't take Miranda seriously when all I hear is her ass talking. Women aren't any better with turning Cloud into an angst machine. So the fandoms need some work as well, it's not all on the developer.
 

tilmoph

Gone Gonzo
Jun 11, 2013
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One of the biggest problems I have with all these sexism in games are arguments is; what the hell do you want me to do about it? What specific action do you want me, personally, to take to try and fix these things? Letter writing campaigns to devs? Boycotting products? What is to be done?

I care to the extent that most of the complaints that seem reasonable to me (too many being kidnapped.used as macguffins, far too sexualized for no reason, absurdly tacky skimpy clothing) don't seem like they would take that much effort to sort out, and it seems weird that they aren't being sorted out. But that isn't enough to convince me not to buy a game. If you give me an free-world rpg, with a deep and heavily customizable character development system and a large amount of choice in plot direction and choice in character actions, wiht great, side quest filled side villages to uncover in my wanderings, then set that game in Titopolis, the land of Eternal Tits, where all breasts are unbound and perfect and forever jiggling for your enjoyment, I will buy and play that game because of how it plays. I will feel like a really creepy pervert for doing so, I will definitely be looking for a De-pervetization mod so I don't feel icky when I play it, but at the end of the day, I'm going to give those devs and those publishers my money because they crafted a game I can enjoy.

And that's the rub; nothing I listed as a positive for a game requires the drawback. Nothing in any of the game plots demands it be a dude rescuing a chick. Nothing requires the women to be sexualized to the extent that they are, and that does annoy me, but at the end of the day, most of these games are very fun to play. So were left with a choice; don't enjoy the fun, entertaining thing, or do and just deal with the more overdone aspects because of how little they detract from the experience?

No-one seems to be addressing that conflict; we've managed to turn it into a some kind of feminist vs. market forces vs. freedom of expression debate that completly blanks on the core question. Give me actual options here. Develop fun independent games staring the types of women you want. Do a bloody kickstarter. The big boys ain't changing shit till they see the profit in change, and they aren't going to lose profit from not changing as long as everything else is enjoyable. I can't play nonexistent games. I can't vote with my wallet for candidates that don't exist. Critiques won't do a damn thing except have people on the internet yell at each other. We see how much cash Anita got to make a bloody youtube series? Why couldn't an actual example of the product that's being requested get that kind of funding?
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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Abomination said:
Zhukov said:
Every single fucking female character ever either being ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped? Yeah, yeah... that's a problem.
But... not every single female character is ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped...

So there's no problem! Hooray! We solved gender equality in games!
I'm not sure if you're trying to make a point here or if you're just being cute.

No, not every female character is sexualized or victimized, but you have to search pretty bloody hard to find the ones that aren't.
 

Voulan

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Jul 18, 2011
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ShinyCharizard said:
I can respect that. However I find the notion of someone being actually seriously offended by this to be completely ridiculous.
I think it's more of an enough-is-enough attitude than outright offence. It just so happened that The Soceress was the final straw in a long line of people slowly becoming more fustrated and aware of the issue. I was more angry at the immature way the artist handled the issue (calling anyone who didn't like it gay as though it was an insult). But that's another issue.
 

oreso

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Mar 12, 2012
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Voulan said:
Also, telling people to effectively get over it is incredibly rude and bigoted. You are a male that gets pandered to, so of course you have no issues with it - but about about women like me?
Is it? There are bigger issues, surely. Putting these problems in some kind of perspective might be valuable.

And ya know, males and females aren't distinct homogenous masses that get 'pandered to'. Tastes vary (certainly I don't feel my own tastes are pandered to). You're assuming a lot. There are markets, and there are products that appeal to them, and there are individual developers driving things; there's not actually a big oppressive pandering machine that's out to ignore your feels or anything.

Personally, I'd like more hawt males and ugly females in my games. But this is a minority view, unfortunately.

Cheers!