Poll: (Another) feminism discussion

[AidoZonkey]

For the most part I don't find the a game sexist by its art style. I find art aspects like "big boobs" or "skin tight suites" a quirk of the game it self. As long as the characters' integrity isn't harmed, or as long as the character is written well the design of the character isn't too important.

Ive see people go on about how characters like Princess Zelda and Princess Peach are sexist because they are always damsel in distress and generally have no other purpose then as a plot point. However, these characters aren't just blank slates, they have a personality and you see them fight for there freedom, more so in Zelda's case as she has helped Link stop Gannon a number of times.

However, what is sexist about games is the community. Women aren't allowed to be gamers, they are often yelled at for playing online and are generally not allowed to have a voice. In a way the worse offenders of sexism are games like Call Of Duty, were there are huge amounts of trolls making life difficult for everyone but especially women.

Folks don't blame the games for being sexist, blame the community

 

[NoeL]

I don't know if it's actually less commonplace, though I would assume so since I can't think of any particularly egregious examples outside the modern military stuff you mentioned yet sexed-up women is pretty common across the whole spectrum (though fighting games are without a doubt the worst offenders). This is completely anecdotal from my perspective (someone with more time than me should conduct a study) but it seems to be less of a problem today.

Looking at the games released in 2013 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_in_video_gaming] there isn't really that many "sexist" games either.

There's actually quite a significant chunk of sexist games in there. :/ Any game where the female characters are disproportionately sexualised compared to the male characters qualifies as sexist. A lot of those games I hadn't heard of, but a quick Google image search showed that many of them fit the bill.

it's negatively portraying the out-group in order to appeal more to the in-group that's problematic.

I guess it depends on whether or not you consider overly sexualized to be a negative portrayal.

It's not that it's overly sexualised, it's that it's needlessly sexualised. Again, I'm totally ok with porn. But what you'll find is that in most games the women are stunning but no one in the game world bats an eyelid. If you have a character that's sexy then by all means make them sexy, but when you take most (if not every) female character and dress them up as whores regardless of their personality/in-game sex appeal, it reduces them from being "female" to being "eye candy". Their character and presence in the narrative is compromised to sate the male gaze, which hurts the representation of women in gaming (or whatever media).

Well I've put forward my case that the games industry has an issue with sexism (predominantly sexism against women) and I invite you to show me why I'm wrong, or why you think that statement carries unjustified negative connotations.

I wouldn't go so far as to say you're wrong, just that calling everyone and everything sexist regardless of their intent, is just going to exacerbate the issue.

Well, would you disagree that Coal Black is a racist cartoon? This is mainly a matter of semantics. There doesn't have to be any malevolent intent for something to be racist, sexist or whateverist, there just has to be a clear difference in representation between different groups (and arguably a derogatory representation of one of those groups). I might have absolutely no qualms with the Chinese, and do my dealings with them and defend their rights exactly as I would a fellow Australian, yet still find their accent and 'Engrish' hilarious. If I was to then make a Youtube video or something where I exaggerated that in order to appeal to others like me that thought Engrish was funny, that would clearly be a racist video - even if it wasn't intended to degrade Chinese.

 

[wulf3n]

Yes, there is sexism in the industry.

sex·ism
/ˈsekˌsizəm/
Noun
Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

I've always felt the definition of sexism to be its greatest problem.

When people say the portrayal of men is as sexist as the portrayal of women they're right by this definition.

The common traits used to infer the strength or heroism of the protagonist are stereotypes based on old fashioned gender roles about what used to considered "manly".

However most only see the sexualisation of woman in games to be sexism, which in itself is sexist.

 

[NoeL]

Bad comparison is bad.

Being sexy is in no way equivalent to being a servant with fat lips. One is an ideal a lot of people strive to (i've yet to hear people say "No i don't want to be sexy", mind not everyone puts efforts in it) while being a servant is something everyone doesn't want to be).

Bad misunderstanding of the issue is bad.

The fact is that women typically don't strive to fit how women are represented in games. They look at someone like the Sorceress (to use the current punching bag) and think "That is ridiculous". They want to be sexy, sure, but they don't necessarily want to be the ridiculous parodies of "sexy" that gets pandered to the male audience. When was the last time you saw a woman out on the town that was wearing something akin to Ivy from Soul Caliber (and wasn't a prostitute)? Women are generally portrayed as the man's ideal, rather than the woman's.

Take an example, if games were to stereotype belgians as being brave based on Caesar's quote about us in "De Bello Gallico" I wouldn't complain at all. I'd be enormously happy. But if games portrayed us as Black Hating fuckers based on what we did in Congo i'd be pissed. Why? The first is a positive stereotype and the latter a negative one.

Likewise, a portrayal that puts someone's character and personality behind overt T&A for the enjoyment of male viewers is generally considered negative. Women would rather be seen as people before eye candy.

Lastly, there is as much racism as there is sexism in VG's so your point is moot. Characters being white: Fan service. Probably less black/Brown/Yellow/Whateveryouwant protagonists than female protagonists, etc. Skin color is as much used, if not more, to cater to the audience as female sexualization.

And let's not forget: Command and Conquer Generals: Awesome americans fighting against the terrorist middle eastern folks alongside the chinese hackers. And what about all the shooters which like to always frame typical sides as the bad guys and others as the good guys. Still waiting for the Good Middle Eastern people to fight off an evil american invasion.

If you're going to be as strict about racism as you are being with sexism you should be starting a topic about racism right now.

You can't say something doesn't exist just by pointing to something else that also happens to exist. That's like saying "It's a moot point prosecuting this guy for rape, because he also hijacked a car. Where's the outrage over that!?" I just don't understand your line of reasoning here - either sexism is an issue and needs to be addressed, or it's not. How does racism factor into that at all?

I wouldn't say I'm exaggerating, but I'll agree the use of stereotypes has rescinded over the years. You know why? Because people recognised the problem and challenged those that propagate it. Call it "exaggeration", but you wouldn't disagree that the "male gaze" is still overwhelmingly prominent in games (and most of 'geek culture' too, e.g. comic books, trading cards, fantasy art, action films involving super heroes and/or giant robots, etc.), right? There's still a huge tendency to sex up only the female characters.

While that is arguable sexist - it is not in symmetry therefore demonstrating a discrimination. I wouldn't say it's necessarily as offensive as previous comparisons.

We still have stereotypical racial casting for instance, but not as offensive bumbling roles.

Again, see above. How does pointing out racism make the sexism go away? How is it even relevant? The only reason I brought up racism was for analogy - to point out how the exact same line of thinking that reliably gets us to 'racism' SHOULD ALSO reliably get us to 'sexism'.

 

[Phasmal]

Yeah, but in my experience the industry is not as bad as the community.

The industry may not care about what I want, but it's happy to take my money, it isn't trying to tell me to stop playing.
Whereas in the community I've been told I'm ruining it for the male gamers and other such horseshit.
(As if telling me I'm ruining something for sexists is going to make me stop doing it. You can't turn ladies into the scary Godzilla's of Gaming Doom and then expect us to apologise and leave... cause it just sounds kind of awesome).

I think the industry's problem is homogenising too much, hyper-focusing on what male bro-gamers want.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Spoiler: snip

Okay, here's the problem with the discussion on sexism in general:
It uses old tools.

It used to be, women couldn't vote, had less rights, and society was pretty blatantly standing on their feet. The obvious solution was to yell, "Hey jackass, get off my feet!" Because honestly nothing short of that was going to work! You can't win big things like rights with calm suggestions.

However, now the problems that face women (aside from reproductive rights, those are still what I'd consider a "major issue") are much more subtle. They have less to do with men actively holding them down, and more to do with passive assumptions that are made about both sexes. Nobody stands up and says "hey, we shouldn't let any girls in our treehouse" anymore, but most of the passive social systems that were in place from that age are still around for the most part, so there are all kinds of invisible, suggestive elements to society that push you one way or another. Just like for boys, you're still put up against some measure of not wanting to appear weak- if sexism didn't exist, we wouldn't have that, either.

But it's not big, obvious sexism, it's very subtle, deeply ingrained sexism- and that's really hard to fight. You can't yell and rally and put up big political bills to fix these very subtle problems with the way our society works; you have to work with people on an individual level and help everyone come to a more enlightened understanding. This happened with gay people: a loud initial cry for more, followed by a passive filling in of enlightenment regarding the people in question. The second part didn't come from a bullhorn; it came over lunch with co-workers and neighbors.

Before I'm accused of posting off topic, that's where it comes down. We can't solve issues like misrepresentation in video games, of all things, with shouting and labels and defamation; we have to convince both women to push down those career paths, and men to reach out in their minds and try a different approach every so often. Asking to take away things like fanservice and the like aren't going to do anything positive- it'll just cause a backlash and the void of more substantial content will still be there. But if we take it as a challenge and encourage people to put their creative powers to the problem, I think we could see a very positive shift that offers new experiences, but doesn't deprive anybody.

Well...yes and no.

Society wasn't blatantly oppressing women as such, because the society that was oppressing them was also who was judging if they were being oppressed or not. In hindsight, yes, massive obvious problems, but totally normal and desirable to many people at the time, who'd been brought up with it and expected it to continue.

Likewise, things that are deemed subtle now are likely to be seen as obvious later on, by a generation that hasn't accepted them as the default way of things.

Being sexy is in no way equivalent to being a servant with fat lips. One is an ideal a lot of people strive to (i've yet to hear people say "No i don't want to be sexy", mind not everyone puts efforts in it) while being a servant is something everyone doesn't want to be).

Possibly why the complaint was about women being caricatures/sex objects, not merely sexy.

Lastly, there is as much racism as there is sexism in VG's so your point is moot. Characters being white: Fan service. Probably less black/Brown/Yellow/Whateveryouwant protagonists than female protagonists, etc. Skin color is as much used, if not more, to cater to the audience as female sexualization.

And let's not forget: Command and Conquer Generals: Awesome americans fighting against the terrorist middle eastern folks alongside the chinese hackers. And what about all the shooters which like to always frame typical sides as the bad guys and others as the good guys. Still waiting for the Good Middle Eastern people to fight off an evil american invasion.

If you're going to be as strict about racism as you are being with sexism you should be starting a topic about racism right now.

Sexism isn't an issue because racism also is an issue? Um...

I've always felt the definition of sexism to be its greatest problem.

When people say the portrayal of men is as sexist as the portrayal of women they're right by this definition.

The common traits used to infer the strength or heroism of the protagonist are stereotypes based on old fashioned gender roles about what used to considered "manly".

However most only see the sexualisation of woman in games to be sexism, which in itself is sexist.

Er...men are portrayed in a wide range of roles as what men want to be. Women are portrayed in a much smaller range of roles as what those same men want them to be. Now, there are certainly some assumptions being made about what those men want, or ought to want, people to be, and I agree that's a problem, but it's hardly an equivalency.

 

[Vegosiux]

Yes, games have an issue with the depiction of women.

I would hope this is obvious to anyone with two functioning brain cells to rub together.

It's not the specific examples that are the problem. It's the trend that is a problem.

A female character being kidnapped then rescued by a guy? Not a problem. Female characters in Dragon's Crown being ridiculously sexualized? Not a problem.

Every single fucking female character ever either being ridiculously sexualized and/or kidnapped? Yeah, yeah... that's a problem.

Thank you. This is totally true. It wouldn't bother anyone (least of all me) if it wasn't the overwhelming majority.

I actually do not think any statistical study has been made which would show that it's true in the overwhelming majority of games. I actually made quite a few posts about how that should be done (unbiased sample, etc.).

I mean, I'd cry bloody murder if all the games which I play had oversexualized and/or kidnap-prone bimbos all over the place, but funnily enough, most games I play don't. Now it might be that it's just my taste in gaming that keeps me away from the sexist games that allegedly infiltrated nearly every pore of the medium. But hardly any game I played in the entire first half of this year had that problem.

I mean, that sorceress in Orcs Must Die 2 is totally a "scantily clad butt-waving slut with kinky fetishes" (and you have to beat the game on hard mode to get the only more modest outfit for her), but then again the male counterpart completely conforms to the "oblivious and stupid male who enjoys carnage and wouldn't know sexy if it hit him over the head with a lamppost" stereotype...

Then again I do play a lot of strategy and puzzle games which will inherently be less likely to have such a problem, but they are still videogames, so one cannot argue that they don't count.

 

[wizzy555]

Again, see above. How does pointing out racism make the sexism go away? How is it even relevant? The only reason I brought up racism was for analogy - to point out how the exact same line of thinking that reliably gets us to 'racism' SHOULD ALSO reliably get us to 'sexism'.

No, the point is that there is still these sorts of prejudices all over the place and video games are not worse (which is not to say everything is fine, but is adding some perspective).

On a related point I'm not convinced every form of social privilege can be got rid off, just controlled to benign levels.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Yes, there is sexism in the industry.

sex·ism
/ˈsekˌsizəm/
Noun
Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

I've always felt the definition of sexism to be its greatest problem.

When people say the portrayal of men is as sexist as the portrayal of women they're right by this definition.

The common traits used to infer the strength or heroism of the protagonist are stereotypes based on old fashioned gender roles about what used to considered "manly".

However most only see the sexualisation of woman in games to be sexism, which in itself is sexist.

I gotta disagree with your saying it's as bad for guys as it is for women. While sexism vs men is there, and I won't deny that, IMHO, it's -not- as bad/abundant as is it vs women.

I've never seen any reports of a male character being replaced by a female character, especially as a protagonist.
I've never seen an incident whre a man was cut from a game over a woman.
I've never heard of stories whre male protagonists were denied a relationship.
I've never really seen the agency of male characters get tampered with.

Men can be ugly in games. Women? Not so much.

Men are sexualized? It's usually because they're the protagonist, and protagonists need to look appealing, don't they? And who are the games aimed at? Guys. Not women. That sexualization isn't done for the ladies as far as I'm concerned. If it is, it's secondary to appealing to guys.
I can't say it's the same case for women.

Even in the case of NPCs, men generally run a gamut of appearances while women are atleast inoffensive to look at, if not downright sexualized.

Yes, Men are generally the people we kill in a game, but it's generally them or us, isn't it? How often is that the case with women getting killed?
How often is a man, or woman killed by a man vs killed by a woman?

Lets look at diversity of characters between the gender, nevermind the number.

People might say "Oh, but look at how much trouble, pain, death, and agony the guy goes through in a game! Especially to save a woman!" Well, if that's a problem, then lobby for more female protagonists to share the burden. <.<
Or more guys to be the victims to be rescued from their peril.

Frankly the more women we have in games, the less people have to complain about, and the less these topics are going to come up because people who complain about female representation in games will have a more subject matter, and opinions. It won't be a lightning rod topic because there's less problems to be had.

The sexism imbalance is very clear to me as far as gaming goes. Guys have it bad, but women have it worse.

Society's views on the traits aren't vert relevant to me as games don't need to adhere to any social norms, nevermind reality. I'm not sure what more I can say on that, or even if I am talking about what you are.

I do agree that most only see the way a woman is dresed, or the shape of their figure and call it sexism. I'm not saying they're wrong, necessarily, but they're not likely digging very deep.

 

[wulf3n]

There's actually quite a significant chunk of sexist games in there. :/ Any game where the female characters are disproportionately sexualised compared to the male characters qualifies as sexist. A lot of those games I hadn't heard of, but a quick Google image search showed that many of them fit the bill.

I'd have to look into more than I did before before I agree/disagree.

It's not that it's overly sexualised, it's that it's needlessly sexualised. Again, I'm totally ok with porn. But what you'll find is that in most games the women are stunning but no one in the game world bats an eyelid. If you have a character that's sexy then by all means make them sexy, but when you take most (if not every) female character and dress them up as whores regardless of their personality/in-game sex appeal, it reduces them from being "female" to being "eye candy". Their character and presence in the narrative is compromised to sate the male gaze, which hurts the representation of women in gaming (or whatever media).

I don't necessarily disagree with this point, though I find the distinction that porn is ok interesting.

I get that prevalence can be an issue, but mostly it's a select few games that are considered the problem, games which aren't much different to porn.

Well, would you disagree that Coal Black is a racist cartoon? This is mainly a matter of semantics. There doesn't have to be any malevolent intent for something to be racist, sexist or whateverist, there just has to be a clear difference in representation between different groups (and arguably a derogatory representation of one of those groups).

Yes it's racist. But I wouldn't compare it to say... something produced by the KKK.

I might have absolutely no qualms with the Chinese, and do my dealings with them and defend their rights exactly as I would a fellow Australian, yet still find their accent and 'Engrish' hilarious. If I was to then make a Youtube video or something where I exaggerated that in order to appeal to others like me that thought Engrish was funny, that would clearly be a racist video - even if it wasn't intended to degrade Chinese.

Is it Racist? or is it making fun of someone who can't speak english who just happens to be another race? If I did the same thing with a German accent is that Racist?

 

[generals3]

Bad misunderstanding of the issue is bad.

The fact is that women typically don't strive to fit how women are represented in games. They look at someone like the Sorceress (to use the current punching bag) and think "That is ridiculous". They want to be sexy, sure, but they don't necessarily want to be the ridiculous parodies of "sexy" that gets pandered to the male audience. When was the last time you saw a woman out on the town that was wearing something akin to Ivy from Soul Caliber (and wasn't a prostitute)? Women are generally portrayed as the man's ideal, rather than the woman's.

A cartoon is a cartoon. Anime girls also have ridiculous proportions. These are games not movies with RL actors. On top of that the whole art style in that particular instance is "ridiculous" in its human representation.

And about ivy. When was the last time you saw a man wear full weird looking plate armor on the streets? You can't just compare a clothing style from a 100% fictional universe with people not even being real humans but just lines of codes with the clothing style in RL.

]Likewise, a portrayal that puts someone's character and personality behind overt T&A for the enjoyment of male viewers is generally considered negative. Women would rather be seen as people before eye candy.

Actually the problem here is people being stuck at the "looks" part. Something many women fight against in RL, the right to be sexy and still being seen as real people.

You can't say something doesn't exist just by pointing to something else that also happens to exist. That's like saying "It's a moot point prosecuting this guy for rape, because he also hijacked a car. Where's the outrage over that!?" I just don't understand your line of reasoning here - either sexism is an issue and needs to be addressed, or it's not. How does racism factor into that at all?

It was YOUR logic that what justified this fight against sexism was that racism wouldn't fly by. However since plenty of racism (well based on the definition some angry people use for sexism) exists and it's not addressed at all, your argument to why this type of "sexism" shouldn't fly by falls apart.

PS: Something everyone carefully forgets is that male characters are also given looks to appeal to the audience. Just look at how much flack Raiden got in MGS2. There is a reason you won't see a lot of skinny effeminate male characters => They don't appeal to the audience. It's all marketing. If you think it's wrong for companies to try and make money than your fight lies elsewhere. (PPS: it's not a coincidence a lot of feminists are anti economic liberalism (=> referring to classical liberalism which is free market, capitalism, etc.)

 

[wulf3n]

Men can be ugly in games. Women? Not so much.

How many truly ugly playable characters are there? While not necessarily sexist it does raise concerns that to be heroic one must be attractive.

Men are sexualized? It's usually because they're the protagonist, and protagonists need to look appealing, don't they? And who are the games aimed at? Guys. Not women. That sexualization isn't done for the ladies as far as I'm concerned. If it is, it's secondary to appealing to guys.
I can't say it's the same case for women.

I'm not saying male protagonists are sexualised, simply that they're idealised based on archaic gender roles, which is sexist.

Now I don't really disagree with any of your points, I'm merely pointing out that "sexism" as a term is too broad and with enough finagling pretty much anything is sexist.

 

[Meatspinner]

I've noticed the last few weeks, and the last few days in particular, have been pretty heavy on the feminism topic...

That's pretty much the norm around here. Been so since Susan became editor.

Welcome to the escapist

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Men can be ugly in games. Women? Not so much.

How many truly ugly playable characters are there?

Men are sexualized? It's usually because they're the protagonist, and protagonists need to look appealing, don't they? And who are the games aimed at? Guys. Not women. That sexualization isn't done for the ladies as far as I'm concerned. If it is, it's secondary to appealing to guys.
I can't say it's the same case for women.

I'm not saying male protagonists are sexualised, simply that they're idealised based on archaic gender roles, which is sexist.

Now I don't really disagree with any of your points, I'm merely pointing out that "sexism" as a term is too broad and with enough finagling pretty much anything is sexist.

Truly ugly guys? Stubbs the zombie, pretty much every guy in Brink, Deadpool, Kane and Lynch, Trevor in GTA V, whazzizname alien from Destroy All Humans, every guy in Gotham City impostors, splosion man, super meat boy, the guy from labyrinth legends.
I can potentially add Big daddy, every playable guy in Gears of War, Kratos, Travis Touchdown, Maio, Luigi, Wario, Frank West (Kinda that uncanny valley thing to me), and Raiden from Metal Gear as far as the cyborgization took him.
That's just off the top of my head, here.
You're free to argue anyone on this list, but these people generally don't conform to typical Handsome stereotypes, IMO.

Oh, and Old Snake. He may not be ugly, per say, but he's old. When was the last time you saw a woman his physical age as a protagonist?

Women? Ms. splosion man. Super Meat Boy's girl friend. uhm. Have anyone ya wanna add?

I never said you said guys were sexualized. Sorry. I've just brought that up to counter the "men are sexualized" complaint people like to lob.
I agree they're generally idealized more than sexualized.

Sexism's definition might be too broad, but I'm not having to try very hard, imo, to apply it to videogames. It's when one has to make an effort to make it fit is when people should worry, IMO.

 

[oreso]

Is it? There are bigger issues, surely. Putting these problems in some kind of perspective might be valuable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_worse_problems

The fact there are bigger issues is utterly irrelevant as to whether or not this particular issue is worth addressing.

Arguments get judged individually based on their own merits. They are not ranked in a global hierarchy according to their significance.

Sure thing. Sorry, I wasn't meaning to dismiss the statement "games are sexist" by saying "other things are more sexist", but perspective is still valuable. The level of emotion that seems to be involved is frankly astounding, and I think if we can consider the bigger picture a little more then it might be more productive.

Still, you can hardly argue that gigantic bouncing breasts or ridiculously impractical bikini armour are meant to attract women to these games. I'm not saying every game ever is to appeal to everyone (that would be stupid and an impossible request) and nor am I saying there should never be fan service ever again. But certainly games and other media are designed towards a certain demographic, and when there's painfully few examples of good female characters it's just dreadful.

But unfortunately we can't demand that a market for non-sexualised female characters -should- exist. If the market isn't there, then it just isn't there (we'd need to look at other reasons).

Games designers aren't supposed to set a good moral example, or educate people about the role of women in society, they're just supposed to make games that will sell. And giving people what they want is not somehow a slight on all the people who don't want it.

It sucks if you happen to be in a niche market yourself, but it's not like the market is conspiring or anything. There's no victim and no sexism. Heck, it isn't even as if men and women all like the same things. I'm right there with you with some niche tastes. And pleeeenty of women like the stuff that is often decried as sexist, misogynistic or objectifying (because, hey, some women like playing as manly dudebros or sexy chicks or whatever).

And besides, things -are- changing. Markets -are- shifting. We -do- have pretty good diversity in representation, even compared to media which have been around much longer than us (I'm thinking movies here). But shaming folk for liking sexy stuff (or whatever else) isn't a great way to speed up the process.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

My only beef with sexism being brought up ad nausea is that it turns dev's away from making female characters, period. I would happily take an 'attractive' character with some depth and nuance than a plain Jane that was shallow as fuck, but all this talk of sexualizing and objectification and the following shit storms that follow just convince dev?s and publishers that having a female character isn't worth the public backlash.

So now we have all these games that either won't be localised or even made. All this is supposed to help, but it?s actually having the opposite effect, they're just cutting women out entirely. I suppose the racial equivalent is being overly cautious that you're going to offend somebody, so you don't even engage them, which I'd personally find more offensive.

All these topic's seem to do is put a magnifying glass over the problem and setting it alight rather than actually doing anything to solve the problem. Frankly to the people that find Dragon's Crown offensive and then giving it articles and thread's is just giving Vanillaware a marketing campaign that couldn't have paid for, and besides a couple of characters the rest of the game looks gorgeous. People complain about the homogenisation of media and yet they want the game to follow step with what the masses want (or at least a vocal minority want).

 

[NoeL]

We still have stereotypical racial casting for instance, but not as offensive bumbling roles.

Again, see above. How does pointing out racism make the sexism go away? How is it even relevant? The only reason I brought up racism was for analogy - to point out how the exact same line of thinking that reliably gets us to 'racism' SHOULD ALSO reliably get us to 'sexism'.

No, the point is that there is still these sorts of prejudices all over the place and video games are not worse (which is not to say everything is fine, but is adding some perspective).

On a related point I'm not convinced every form of social privilege can be got rid off, just controlled to benign levels.

Again, you're making the same faulty appeal. That sexism exists elsewhere is just as irrelevant as the presence of racism to whether or not the games industry has sexism.

It's not that it's overly sexualised, it's that it's needlessly sexualised. Again, I'm totally ok with porn. But what you'll find is that in most games the women are stunning but no one in the game world bats an eyelid. If you have a character that's sexy then by all means make them sexy, but when you take most (if not every) female character and dress them up as whores regardless of their personality/in-game sex appeal, it reduces them from being "female" to being "eye candy". Their character and presence in the narrative is compromised to sate the male gaze, which hurts the representation of women in gaming (or whatever media).

I don't necessarily disagree with this point, though I find the distinction that porn is ok interesting.

I get that prevalence can be an issue, but mostly it's a select few games that are considered the problem, games which aren't much different to porn.

It's actually those "select few" that I have the least problem with, and then it's mainly because the porn is unevenly distributed. But yes, the issue is mainly the prevalence - particularly among otherwise non-pornographic games. You don't need to seximafy your characters just because they're girls. Also, visual depictions of women is only part of the pie - there are other behavioural stereotypes (damsel in distress anyone? *shot*).

Well, would you disagree that Coal Black is a racist cartoon? This is mainly a matter of semantics. There doesn't have to be any malevolent intent for something to be racist, sexist or whateverist, there just has to be a clear difference in representation between different groups (and arguably a derogatory representation of one of those groups).

Yes it's racist. But I wouldn't compare it to say... something produced by the KKK.

Neither would I, but I'm hardly comparing the representation of women in games to the representation of women in the GOP's manifesto. I said they were sexist, not necessarily misogynist.

I might have absolutely no qualms with the Chinese, and do my dealings with them and defend their rights exactly as I would a fellow Australian, yet still find their accent and 'Engrish' hilarious. If I was to then make a Youtube video or something where I exaggerated that in order to appeal to others like me that thought Engrish was funny, that would clearly be a racist video - even if it wasn't intended to degrade Chinese.

Is it Racist? or is it making fun of someone who can't speak english who just happens to be another race? If I did the same thing with a German accent is that Racist?

It's making fun of the race as a whole rather than a specific individual, so yes it's racist. Assuming you're a white guy it might not technically be "racist" to do the same thing with a German accent, but it would be "nationist" I guess.

Bad misunderstanding of the issue is bad.

The fact is that women typically don't strive to fit how women are represented in games. They look at someone like the Sorceress (to use the current punching bag) and think "That is ridiculous". They want to be sexy, sure, but they don't necessarily want to be the ridiculous parodies of "sexy" that gets pandered to the male audience. When was the last time you saw a woman out on the town that was wearing something akin to Ivy from Soul Caliber (and wasn't a prostitute)? Women are generally portrayed as the man's ideal, rather than the woman's.

A cartoon is a cartoon. Anime girls also have ridiculous proportions. These are games not movies with RL actors. On top of that the whole art style in that particular instance is "ridiculous" in its human representation.

What's your point? That women strive to look like ridiculously proportioned cartoon representations? I don't think that's true...

And about ivy. When was the last time you saw a man wear full plate armor in weird styles on the streets? You can't just compare a clothing style from a 100% fictional universe with people not even being real humans but just lines of codes written with the clothing style in RL.

Fair point. In that case, when was the last time you saw a woman wearing a contemporary clothing style equivalent of Ivy? Fact is you won't see many, because it's not considered tasteful to show that much skin.

Likewise, a portrayal that puts someone's character and personality behind overt T&A for the enjoyment of male viewers is generally considered negative. Women would rather be seen as people before eye candy.

Actually the problem here is people being stuck at the "looks" part. Something many women fight against in RL, the right to be sexy and still being seen as real people.

I've been over this in other comments. There's nothing wrong with writing a sexy character and designing them to look sexy. But all too often we have "sexless" characters that are tarted up like prostitutes for no other reason than to give the guy something to look at. None of the other characters seem to notice that their tits are hanging out of their top. This prioritises the character as eye candy - a sex object - above an actual person, and breaks immersion for every game that's somewhat modeled after the real world (including "cartoony" things like WoW).

You can't say something doesn't exist just by pointing to something else that also happens to exist. That's like saying "It's a moot point prosecuting this guy for rape, because he also hijacked a car. Where's the outrage over that!?" I just don't understand your line of reasoning here - either sexism is an issue and needs to be addressed, or it's not. How does racism factor into that at all?

It was YOUR logic that what justified this fight against sexism was that racism wouldn't fly by. However since plenty of racism (well based on the definition some angry people use for sexism) exists and it's not addressed at all, your argument to why this type of "sexism" shouldn't fly by falls apart.

I have no idea what you mean by "fly by" but I'm pretty sure you've completely misunderstood me.

PS: Something everyone carefully forgets is that male characters are also given looks to appeal to the audience. Just look at how much flack Raiden got in MGS2. There is a reason you won't see a lot of skinny effeminate male characters => They don't appeal to the audience. It's all marketing. If you think it's wrong for companies to try and make money than your fight lies elsewhere. (PPS: it's not a coincidence a lot of feminists are anti economic liberalism (=> referring to classical liberalism which is free market, capitalism, etc.)

That was equal parts redundant and offensive. As I said earlier (either to you or someone else - I've posted a shitload in this thread and repeated myself several times already) marketing to a particular demographic isn't inherently bad. What IS bad is when you derogate the "out-group" to appeal to the "in-group". For example, if Sony decided to market the PS4 by making derogatory comments about Xbone owners, the fact that Sony fanboys might LOVE that campaign doesn't make it ok to do. Likewise, it's not ethical to portray women in a manner they deem derogatory just because it may be seen favourably by men (at least those that don't care too much about what women think, anyway). Can you see how that's quite different to making the protagonist a male with a medium build, brown hair and masculine features in order to appeal to what men tend to want to identify with?

 

[wulf3n]

Truly ugly guys? Stubbs the zombie, pretty much every guy in Brink, Deadpool, Kane and Lynch, Trevor in GTA V, whazzizname alien from Destroy All Humans, every guy in Gotham City impostors, splosion man, super meat boy, the guy from labyrinth legends.
I can potentially add Big daddy, every playable guy in Gears of War, Kratos, Travis Touchdown, Maio, Luigi, Wario, Frank West (Kinda that uncanny valley thing to me), and Raiden from Metal Gear as far as the cyborgization took him.
That's just off the top of my head, here.
You're free to argue anyone on this list, but these people generally don't conform to typical Handsome stereotypes, IMO.

Oh, and Old Snake. He may not be ugly, per say, but he's old. When was the last time you saw a woman his physical age as a protagonist?

While some I'd argue are stylistic not ugly, and others the ugliness is used to demonstrate the "corruption" of their character, yeah some are just ugly.

Women? Ms. splosion man. Super Meat Boy's girl friend. uhm. Have anyone ya wanna add?

... I've got nothing.

Sexism's definition might be too broad, but I'm not having to try very hard, imo, to apply it to videogames. It's when one has to make an effort to make it fit is when people should worry, IMO.

I guess I'm just a bit obsessive when it comes to distinction/definition But I also think the issue would be a lot harder to "discredit" if the word wasn't so broad.

 

[generals3]

What's your point? That women strive to look like ridiculously proportioned cartoon representations? I don't think that's true...

No my point is that being offended by ridiculous proportions in a cartoon which goes for that art style is stupid.

Fair point. In that case, when was the last time you saw a woman wearing a contemporary clothing style equivalent of Ivy? Fact is you won't see many, because it's not considered tasteful to show that much skin.

You'd be surprised.

I've been over this in other comments. There's nothing wrong with writing a sexy character and designing them to look sexy. But all too often we have "sexless" characters that are tarted up like prostitutes for no other reason than to give the guy something to look at. None of the other characters seem to notice that their tits are hanging out of their top. This prioritises the character as eye candy - a sex object - above an actual person, and breaks immersion for every game that's somewhat modeled after the real world (including "cartoony" things like WoW).

So what? No but so frigging what? If a character is wearing sexy clothing, so what?! You don't need to be a horny hooker to like sexy clothes.

And it doesn't prioritize anything unless YOU want it to. If you get stuck at staring at tits that's not my problem.

I have no idea what you mean by "fly by" but I'm pretty sure you've completely misunderstood me.

Not at all. Let me quote you: "Scratch that - there's plenty of sexism in games. Want to know what changed my mind?

Racism.

If there's a game (or movie, book, tv show, cartoon, whatever) that portrays a black person as a bumbling fat-lipped servant we don't care if the creator likes portraying blacks that way or is catering primarily to whites - we call it for what it is: racism. So how is it any different for a creator portraying women as busty, lusty pinup girls - a stereotype of their ideal woman that isn't exactly looked favourably upon by actual women? If there's a distinction there, I'm not seeing it.

So yeah, I guess the game industry (and comic industry, and much of pop culture in general) is quite sexist.

EDIT: Oh, and there's definitely an issue with sexism among gamers - possibly more so than the industry itself."

A: You said that what changed your mind was racism
B: You said that if games are racist it's being seen as racist.
C: You said, so why act any different with sexism?

Since B is false, and should be "Games are only seen as racist if over the top and trying to pander to racists but are not if they are being racist the same way games are sexist" following C's logic, there is no sexism issue.

If racism changed your mind once, it should again, no?

That was equal parts redundant and offensive. As I said earlier (either to you or someone else - I've posted a shitload in this thread and repeated myself several times already) marketing to a particular demographic isn't inherently bad. What IS bad is when you derogate the "out-group" to appeal to the "in-group". For example, if Sony decided to market the PS4 by making derogatory comments about Xbone owners, the fact that Sony fanboys might LOVE that campaign doesn't make it ok to do. Likewise, it's not ethical to portray women in a manner they deem derogatory just because it may be seen favourably by men (at least those that don't care too much about what women think, anyway). Can you see how that's quite different to making the protagonist a male with a medium build, brown hair and masculine features in order to appeal to what men tend to want to identify with?

There is no derogating of anyone. Games are not insulting women. Portraying women as sexy is not "derogatory". Women being targeted by bad guys is also not "derogatory" either. What games do is make the male protagonist shine out, but there is a difference between portraying certain men as exceptional and women as shit. Sexiness =/= shit. If all people have is "the hero is often male" and "women are sexualized" there is no case here.