Angus said:
You have to be kidding. Are you seriously suggesting that, historically, women had it just as good as men in general?
Poll: (Another) feminism discussion
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You have to be kidding. Are you seriously suggesting that, historically, women had it just as good as men in general?
Can you actually refute my claims instead of acting like what Im saying is ridicolous?CloudAtlas said:
Find a time period where women in general truly
had it completely horrid while being a man was totally swell.
Heck, just look at Africa right now. We hear all the time that "rape is used as a weapon" i the Kongos, whats often left out is the fact that the men also get raped and shamed(often worse,
because now theyre also seen as weak) or just simply killed.
That we both wouldnt know about mens equal hardships without extra research, sort of proves the theory of men being seen in society as disposable.
If you're going to complain about sexist games you have to define what you think is sexist and why. Or to avoid people who take the literal definition complain about games that are offensive since people can't tell you that you're not offended by that (however they may tell you to stop being offended).CloudAtlas said:
It wasn't the dev team who wanted to change it, it was the fans complaining after they saw the trailer. From the devs: "In terms of her body type, I think certainly people on the Internet have spent way more time thinking about Elizabeth's chest than I have. It's something I've barely thought about... It's disappointing when [Elizabeth's appearance] becomes a focus for conversation because that was never my intent and it's sort of a disincentive. I'd much rather talk about what she's going through as a person." [footnote]http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/01/05/focus-on-bioshock-infinites-story-not-its-boobs[/footnote] Do boobs make people unable to take women seriously? Going back to my first post in the thread, sometimes the games aren't sexist but the fans make them so.
You said women were denied their power fantasy and escapism. Unless you think the MC has to be a women for a woman, male MCs can still fulfill that. It's nice to have the MC be your own gender but I don't see it as a requirement, and if someone does they're only limiting themselves. I haven't come across numerous games where women are second class citizens. Then again that fits in with dark and gritty, it doesn't fit into the games I like which are about friendship or kickass action.CloudAtlas said:
That's my view right there.CloudAtlas said:Kronar is by far my favourite barbarian, so I guess I'm not as sensitive as I might come across after all, just... keep in the kind of games where it belongs.Jinxzy said:
Well how do you prefer your manly man games, God of War or Muscle March? I want games for all tastes, manly games included.Jinxzy said:Oh thought you were being sarcastic, like many man game grrr. Still made me laugh.TehCookie said:I meant it as in fanservice for women, hot shirtless guys, ass cam with men as the focus, more than one male character design etc. Then again since you have no problem with character design or role you could still enjoy the game for the gameplayJinxzy said:
I don't know how I would feel about that. When you said "hot shirtless guys, ass cam with men as the focus" I instantly thought of like chip and dale dancers in the game and my face when to horror. Bleh I'm not a butt person, yet in the new DMC dante went full nude. Except for the covenant items floating by his man parts, thinking about it now no one said anything about him being naked.
I don't think anyone cared about Donte. A lot of people hate him, there were more fun parts of the joke about (fuck you) and they were mourning the old Dante.
No. I'm not your history teacher. For starters, since you seem to think so lowly about feminism, why don't you start with some research about the feminist movement, how it came to be, what they wanted, and such? There actually were reasons, you know.Angus said:
That's why I'm more comfortable with complaining about sexualization & bad character design than about sexism. It's simply easier to argue. At least for me, with my limited understanding of the issue.TehCookie said:
What's the issue here? Increasing the bust size of a character means sexualizing her more, sure, whether it's intentional or not. So if you want to focus the audience on the character, not the boobs, you're better off making them smaller. They simply draw less attention.
And I can see why a fair number of people didn't find large boobs on Elizabeth fitting since she otherwise looks like a pretty young girl.
I said some women said that their experience was tarnished, but not necessarily because the protagonist is a female, but because of how female characters were treated in these worlds or by the game itself (and you can probably add revealing attire that doesn't fit to the overall tone of the game here). But if you can rarely play as your own gender, I guess that's a real bummer too. But, well, what should I say, I have to rely on empathy here, I'm a guy, straight and white on top of that, I'm as privileged as I could be, regarding games, I couldn't tell from own experience.
I have two completely different view concerning sexualization and sexism. Sexism is bad, but my view on sexualization is a boys will be boys, they can have some games as long as I get some too. Diversity is good.CloudAtlas said:
A) Why can't people take characters with boobs seriouslyCloudAtlas said:
B) Why is sexy bad?
C) Why are boobs distracting people in the first place?
D) When is it the developers fault of sexualizing a character or the fandoms and does that make a difference?
Some men say they like cheap fanservice (and I'll avoid actual sexism in games), so why should we ignore them for one other group? As for the women why do they play those games instead of ones that don't offend them?CloudAtlas said:
Neither of these refute any of my claims.CloudAtlas said:
If you dont believe in my arguments I can look up my old sources, and some modern statistics from the statistical bureau of Sweden. We are a very equalized country, with a 3% feminist party, so it suprised me a lot when a friend told me the official statistics for suicide were 70-80% men as victims.
Im not trolling when I give you these facts man/miss.
I don't know what you want to prove with modern statistics from Sweden, one of the most equal countries in the world, about the general situation of women, globally, in past or present, but go ahead...Angus said:Neither of these refute any of my claims.CloudAtlas said:
If you dont believe in my arguments I can look up my old sources, and some modern statistics from the statistical bureau of Sweden. We are a very equalized country, with a 3% feminist party, so it suprised me a lot when a friend told me the official statistics for suicide were 70-80% men as victims.
Im not trolling when I give you these facts man/miss.
A) Did you mean to ask: Why can't people take characters with really big boobs seriously?TehCookie said:
B) Sexualization is bad if it does not fit to the character you want to portray
C) Biology
D) What matters is how a message is received, if that's what you're asking me.
I just want the other group to be less ignored. And why don't they play other games? Well, because that's just one aspect of games they otherwise like, I guess?
What Im saying is, even in a very feminist society, we dont really care about men, theyre disposable. My main point is that 1) Men might have certain historical benefits, but also have been seen as disposable. 2) The modern feminism movement doesent really change anything, its just the old "men take care of themselves" and "women are always victims" trope all over again!CloudAtlas said:I don't know what you want to prove with modern statistics from Sweden, one of the most equal countries in the world, about the general situation of women, globally, in past or present, but go ahead...Angus said:Neither of these refute any of my claims.CloudAtlas said:
If you dont believe in my arguments I can look up my old sources, and some modern statistics from the statistical bureau of Sweden. We are a very equalized country, with a 3% feminist party, so it suprised me a lot when a friend told me the official statistics for suicide were 70-80% men as victims.
Im not trolling when I give you these facts man/miss.
Typical swedish article on suicide issues:
http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyheter24.se%2Fnyheter%2Finrikes%2F507093-unga-tjejer-tar-livet-av-sig-med-helt-vanliga-alvedon&act=url
Actual statistics:
"män" means Men.
http://ki.se/ki/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=39494&l=sv
The discrepancy is easy to notice. If youre a man, people dont really care about you dying- its just one of many examples of issues we overlook, because heck, the issue only exists when it happens to a female.
Sure, men might get some of the spotlight sometimes, but notice the phrase "x number of women and children were hit in the blast" in newspapers. We mention women as well as children, as an extra horrible case of death.
Just putting this out there--suicide doesn't necessarily happen when your society views you as disposable; at least assuming there isn't something really important the rest of the world is missing about Sweden's government and it's relationship with the press. It happens when you kill yourself. People generally don't like that happening in a country, and if you called up the police or someone and explained you were going to commit suicide, I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that they'll quickly show that they disapprove of anyone, even men, offing themselves. Is suicide tragic? Yes. Is it sexist? I seriously doubt it.Angus said:What Im saying is, even in a very feminist society, we dont really care about men, theyre disposable. My main point is that 1) Men might have certain historical benefits, but also have been seen as disposable. 2) The modern feminism movement doesent really change anything, its just the old "men take care of themselves" and "women are always victims" trope all over again!
Typical swedish article on suicide issues:
http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyheter24.se%2Fnyheter%2Finrikes%2F507093-unga-tjejer-tar-livet-av-sig-med-helt-vanliga-alvedon&act=url
Actual statistics:
"män" means Men.
http://ki.se/ki/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=39494&l=sv
The discrepancy is easy to notice. If youre a man, people dont really care about you dying- its just one of many examples of issues we overlook, because heck, the issue only exists when it happens to a female.
Sure, men might get some of the spotlight sometimes, but notice the phrase "x number of women and children were hit in the blast" in newspapers. We mention women as well as children, as an extra horrible case of death.
As for the phrase, I can't say I've seen it in years. People talk about victims, and give statistics, but these days (In my culture at least) a civilian man dying is seen as just as tragic as a civilian woman (Obviously, children dying is on a different level.) Sure, people used to say, "Women and children first," but that was in the age of idiotic chivalry, and nobody is trying to prove anything anymore (For the most part, I mean.)
I don't think your impression of feminism is correct. Maybe it is partly due to the circumstance that you live in one of the most equal countries in the world, so, naturally, there are fewer "serious" issues left to complain about than elsewhere, and more policies are passed that do indeed disadvantage men.Angus said:What Im saying is, even in a very feminist society, we dont really care about men, theyre disposable. My main point is that 1) Men might have certain historical benefits, but also have been seen as disposable. 2) The modern feminism movement doesent really change anything, its just the old "men take care of themselves" and "women are always victims" trope all over again!
So, yes, feminists who match your description, they do exist, and quite a few of the more prominent ones certainly belong to that camp. But they are not representative of the feminist movement as a whole.
What true feminists want is equality, nothing less, nothing more. And that includes men's issues too. Your suicide example illustrates this well. Well, first of all, generally, more women then men attempt to suicide, it's just that men are much more successful with it, so this example does not really support your argument all too well.
And what are the reasons for men committing suicide? Is it really (only) because society regards them as disposable? Or could it be that, according to traditional gender roles, men are expected to do well in their jobs, to be the provider, and to fail this expectation is a good reason for suicide? Well... traditional gender roles are just one of the things feminists fight against.
But, back to topic: If you believe that, historically, women didn't have it worse, then you couldn't use the realism argument to justify a game world full of sexism. So, in a way, saying that "feminists" are wrong actually helps their cause.
You dont really read my argument correctly. Im not saying that men kill themselves BECAUSE they are seen as disposable(might be part of it, but its not really my argument) but that we rarely read about the massive unequality there because its not really taken as seriously when men die. Its the same with work related accidents, 90% of people dying at work are men- but thats not mentioned in the papers here. It was only when I read a blog about equality, wich MRAs basically are here, that I got to see wich gender ACTUALLY was more prone to die at work or by suicide.Quantum Glass said:It happens when you kill yourself. People generally don't like that happening in a country, and if you called up the police or someone and explained you were going to commit suicide, I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that they'll quickly show that they disapprove of anyone, even men, offing themselves. Is suicide tragic? Yes. Is it sexist? I seriously doubt it.Angus said:What Im saying is, even in a very feminist society, we dont really care about men, theyre disposable. My main point is that 1) Men might have certain historical benefits, but also have been seen as disposable. 2) The modern feminism movement doesent really change anything, its just the old "men take care of themselves" and "women are always victims" trope all over again!
Typical swedish article on suicide issues:
http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyheter24.se%2Fnyheter%2Finrikes%2F507093-unga-tjejer-tar-livet-av-sig-med-helt-vanliga-alvedon&act=url
Actual statistics:
"män" means Men.
http://ki.se/ki/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=39494&l=sv
The discrepancy is easy to notice. If youre a man, people dont really care about you dying- its just one of many examples of issues we overlook, because heck, the issue only exists when it happens to a female.
Sure, men might get some of the spotlight sometimes, but notice the phrase "x number of women and children were hit in the blast" in newspapers. We mention women as well as children, as an extra horrible case of death.
As for the phrase, I can't say I've seen it in years. People talk about victims, and give statistics, but these days (In my culture at least) a civilian man dying is seen as just as tragic as a civilian woman (Obviously, children dying is on a different level.) Sure, people used to say, "Women and children first," but that was in the age of idiotic chivalry, and nobody is trying to prove anything anymore (For the most part, I mean.)
Still newspapers, support groups, all of these mainly write about women(Alvedon flickorna/ the alvedon girls) or cater to women.
A) Yeah.CloudAtlas said:
B) And if they want to make an attractive character? Sexy and personality aren't mutually exclusive.
C) That only applies to men. Though ironic that the people they're trying to cater to are the ones more annoyed by it.
D) Okay. And now I'm imagining all the fanshippings as canon, I have to go wash my brain now.
CloudAtlas said:I don't think your impression of feminism is correct. Maybe it is partly due to the circumstance that you live in one of the most equal countries in the world, so, naturally, there are fewer "serious" issues left to complain about than elsewhere, and more policies are passed that do indeed disadvantage men.Angus said:What Im saying is, even in a very feminist society, we dont really care about men, theyre disposable. My main point is that 1) Men might have certain historical benefits, but also have been seen as disposable. 2) The modern feminism movement doesent really change anything, its just the old "men take care of themselves" and "women are always victims" trope all over again!
So, yes, feminists who match your description, they do exist, and quite a few of the more prominent ones certainly belong to that camp. But they are not representative of the feminist movement as a whole.
The reason more women are "unsuccessful" is basically because there is support to be had, a society that cares if you show youre suffering physically- pretending or meekly trying is only useful if people really care.CloudAtlas said:
(Im pretty sure neither of us believes that women are less able, to weak to kill themselves than men are.)
As the media example illustrates, young women using pills/alvedon was a huge issue in sweden. But the 80% of suicide victims being swedish male youths are never mentioned in those articles. Unless you specifically google "majority of suicide victims men" or look up statistical bureaus, you will rarely find anyone mentioning the ENORMOUS gender-difference.
Not male-related ones though. There are statistics starting to surface of men being the biggest group in one-sided domestic violence- as victims.CloudAtlas said:
But the majority of feminist do not bother to mention, or access this information.
Mainstream Feminism is still the age old trope of female victims, and male heroes/villains.
I never said that game were realistic. But I wouldnt say it helps "their" cause either, you see, they actually strenghten the tropes they say they disapprove off. When you label women as victims for a culture that only caters to men, that these tropes are somehow victimizing women, you basically say that these trope-filled games ARE realistic.CloudAtlas said:
Youre saying that women ARE weak and that its our job as men to take care of the women, because we ARE running the show.
Theres also a weird insinuation that its an actual INTENT to portray women badly.
Im frankly tired of it!
You're tired of it? So are the people complaining about this stuff! They want games to treat their women just like their men.Angus said:
A) Yeah.TehCookie said:
B) And if they want to make an attractive character? Sexy and personality aren't mutually exclusive.
C) That only applies to men. Though ironic that the people they're trying to cater to are the ones more annoyed by it.
D) Okay. And now I'm imagining all the fanshippings as canon, I have to go wash my brain now.[/quote]
A) Well, the more prominent this feature is, the less prominent are the others. It just diverts attention. And a character with really big boobs is deliberately designed in this way, and you as player know that, and you have to wonder what the reasons were. It's something different to a real woman who happens to have big breasts. And in the real world too there's a reason why you don't wear hot pants to a business meeting.
B) But what makes a character attractive? You can make characters attractive without sexualizing them in cheap, juvenile ways.
C) Men have several reasons for being annoyed by this.
D) I don't really understand what your point is here. If a game included content that simply can be regarded as, say, racist, then that's what it is. Sure, it's even worse if it was intended to be racist, but lack of intent doesn't excuse the result. But of course you can't justify your opinion with stuff that isn't actually there.
Which they are actually. It may sound weird, but both male and female characters are made to appeal to a male audience. The fact the audience thinks a "good" representation of a male character is different from a female has nothing to do with devs and publishers being sexist (i know you didn't say that, i'm just saying it to emphasize it). And these differences don't even imply sexism among consumers, because let's be honest, it's quite normal for a straight male to like women in bikini but not like men in banana hammocks.CloudAtlas said:
Ultimately the standards followed are basically the same: how do we make character X to appeal to our audience?
Congratulations. Your post made me, too, face palm in real life.generals3 said:
Yes, if both genders are made to appeal to the male audience, then they are, in a way, treated equally. But you're distorting the meaning of my statement here in the most perverse way.
I was talking about games that are set in a a world where sexism is frequent, and that some women, by their own account, don't like this, because being reminded of the sexism they face in real life is detrimental for their escapist & power fantasies. But this doesn't mean that games do feature such worlds are necessarily sexist, or their developers, or players who like them.
