Poll: (Another) feminism discussion

[Tsun Tzu]

So...is it wrong to want both sexualized and non-sexualized females in games?

I mean. I, personally, want more variety in both the sexualization of females in games, as well as the non-sexualization of females in games.

I also want to see more variety in male protagonists as well. Handsome, rugged, brown-haired, muscular guys are a bit trite at this point.

Am I allowed to take offense to the continual representation of males within games as strong, courageous, Adonis archetypes? I actually don't view that as a power fantasy. I view it as "a physical ideal" for some people. Coincidentally, that "physical ideal" often coincides with what the opposite sex finds attractive. Many. Many women find the Adonis body type to be sexually attractive.

I don't meet that "ideal." I also don't have any desire to attain that "ideal," as it does not fall under what I would consider to be my personal "ideal."

Under that line of reasoning, I could very well view the rampant portrayal of Adonis male figures to be glaringly sexist. The "male power fantasy" argument doesn't hold any water for me in this instance either. I view these figures to be bulky knuckle dragging lugs and am not really capable of projecting myself upon them sufficiently to be entertained by them.

I could take offense to this. But I don't.

Maybe it's the whole Libertarian bent I have going, but I'm a very, very firm believer in free expression. If a developer wants to depict female characters as buxom beauties? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If a developer wants to depict female characters as strong, independent, adequately clothed, and decidedly average looking? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Invert the genders and, again, there is nothing wrong with that.

The simple fact of the matter is that this, as well as most things in life, is subjective.

What one person views as a horrible affront to gender equality, another views as a girl in a bathing suit playing with a beach ball. The gender, in that instance, is moot. Both genders can view it either way. It just depends on the person; Subjectivity.

Now.

Does the industry exhibit some semblance of "sexism" (God, the internet has made me hate that word)?

I'd argue that the term isn't adequate for explaining the problem. The issue is a matter of capitalism grating against ideals.

Games are products, meant to be sold in as high of a quantity as possible in order to achieve the maximum potential profit. Marketing departments exist specifically to ensure that every possible means of accruing the maximum possible capital is thoroughly explored and acted upon.

If sex sells. It's produced and it subsequently sells. If violence sells. It's produced and it subsequently sells. If hulking males and scantily clad females sell. It's produced and it subsequently sells. If sensibly dressed women in leading roles sell. It's produced and it subsequently sells.

I certainly understand the frustration. I'd love to see more titles with sensibly dressed, smart female protagonists. I also happen to enjoy the T&A. I don't understand the "all or nothing" mindset so many people have with this debate.

 

[Smeatza]

I was talking about games that are set in a a world where sexism is frequent, and that some women, by their own account, don't like this, because being reminded of the sexism they face in real life is detrimental for their escapist & power fantasies. But this doesn't mean that games do feature such worlds are necessarily sexist, or their developers, or players who like them.

I would argue that it's an unworthy point of criticism at all.
What if said game doesn't wish to be an escapist or power fantasy?
What if said game just wants to tell an involving narrative? What if said game aims to make it's consumers uncomfortable as part of it's narrative?

Deus Ex is my favourite VG series, it constantly reminds me about what I hate about the world today, but I love it all the more for that.
I recently finished the last episode of The Walking Dead game. I imagine one of the reasons I found it so devastating, gut-wrenching and heart breaking was because of certain issues

Spoiler: might give something away

I have with my father and abandonment.

But I love it all the more for that, if it wasn't for those issues I may never have had such an intense emotional response to it.

The consumer should not hold the creator responsible for their own personal preference or beliefs. Sexism exists, and if the mere mention of it is enough to prevent one from enjoying a game, then that is their problem and no one else's.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

If I'd seen this poll a few days ago, I would have said "yes".

Then (on the heels of a Jessica Chobot interview, in which she talked about all of the quality female characters in recent games) I did something crazy: I actually looked through my 200+ game library... and found about half a dozen games with overtly sexist imagery and mechanics. There were maybe another dozen or so with sexist bits and pieces tied to story/setting/characterization, which either washes or doesn't based on how you see these things.

The other ~180 games? Not sexist. Dozens of indie games, which are (almost as a rule) totally non-offensive. A bunch of Bioware and Bethesda games, which are usually held up as reasonably gender-neutral (Miranda's ass notwithstanding). Valve's catalogue, which is almost universally lauded for its treatment of women. I wouldn't call my game collection particularly "enlightened" either. Tons of popular AAA games and industry staples.

Now are there a lot of mandatory female leads in there? No. And that probably has something to do with the facts that a) publishers are trying to make money and b) the market for PC, console, and AAA gaming in general is still mostly male. A huge portion of that "almost 50% female" market is of the "Wii and smart phone" variety, which is perfectly valid and encouraging - but shouldn't have much bearing on what happens with development for other demographics.

I'm rambling. Point is: games like Dragon's Crown are already outliers. Unless people are advocating for the complete removal of everything they don't like from an optional entertainment medium, overtly sexual/sexist games will never go away completely - and they shouldn't have to. If this sort of ideology were the pervading one, if the majority of games were treating female characters like pure window dressing, all of this outrage would have a purpose.

What we have here is the internet echo chamber at its finest. The actual meat of the story is disappointingly mild.

 

[VodkaKnight]

I guess sexualization is fine, IF IT FITS THE CHARACTER.
A barmaid? It makes sense to show some skin.
A Steel-Clad warrior? Not okay. Bikini armour would kill you. Look it up.
A homeless person? Fine, it makes sense to have torn clothes.
A political figure? No, a political figure should be a person you can take seriously.

It's fine, if IT FITS THE CULTURE.
A thief? Fine. You want to be light on your feet.
An berserker? Fine, the point of berserkers is that they weren't weighed down.
A hunter? Fine, you want to carry as much as possible.

So sexualization is okay, as long as it makes sense in the scenario.

 

[JarinArenos]

To all the people trying to stop the conversation by facetiously asking "why are we still talking about this?" or similar (talking doesn't do anything, etc.)... we're talking about it because it does make a difference to have the conversation. Developers are actually starting to listen. Not all of them and certainly not all the time, but the concerns are being heard. Ignoring issues doesn't make them go away. Pointing out problems is just like any other criticism of a medium. It's a way to tell developers "do better next time". And you know what? In the long run, it helps.

 

[CloudAtlas]

I was talking about games that are set in a a world where sexism is frequent, and that some women, by their own account, don't like this, because being reminded of the sexism they face in real life is detrimental for their escapist & power fantasies. But this doesn't mean that games do feature such worlds are necessarily sexist, or their developers, or players who like them.

I would argue that it's an unworthy point of criticism at all.
What if said game doesn't wish to be an escapist or power fantasy?
What if said game just wants to tell an involving narrative? What if said game aims to make it's consumers uncomfortable as part of it's narrative?

I would argue the same. But you shouldn't include such sensitive content, be it sexism, racism, whatever, just because. It should matter for the narrative of your game. Although, of course, that is true for all content.
I want to emphasize however that I am not claiming here that games are violating this "rule" with regards to such content often, lest I be accused of complaining about a non-issue or something.

For example, I'm currently playing Bioshock Infinite (for the first time; no spoilers please), and the society of Columbia is pretty racist, but it seems to matter for the narrative, and you can take a stand on the issue as well.

I still wonder whether a revenge fantasy, such as Django Unchained, would make for a good game...

 

[CloudAtlas]

I certainly understand the frustration. I'd love to see more titles with sensibly dressed, smart female protagonists. I also happen to enjoy the T&A. I don't understand the "all or nothing" mindset so many people have with this debate.

Very few people actually demand "nothing".

 

[Yuuki]

It's a way to tell developers "do better next time". And you know what? In the long run, it helps.

Unfortunately I really don't think that's the message that developers are getting.

 

[EternallyBored]

It's a way to tell developers "do better next time". And you know what? In the long run, it helps.

Unfortunately I really don't think that's the message that developers are getting.

That's a common problem with any criticism or success though, it's hard to tell exactly what mechanisms are responsible for a properties success or failure, and even with fan input many publishers and developers still get it wrong. It's why producers and publishers are so obsessed with formulas as they crave the ability to quantify their success or failure.

People complained about the Mako in Mass Effect 1 being hard to drive, and when Bioware took it out of Mass Effect 2 people complained that while the Mako was hard to drive they still wanted to have it in the game. Communication is rife with people missing the point or taking the wrong idea away from a conversation, but it's really all we have. Companies much prefer people speaking out on why they are or aren't buying something, it's much better than leaving them scrambling to try and discover why their product is failing, or paranoid not knowing why their product is so popular. Unfortunately, this means companies will occasionally screw up when they take the wrong message away from something, it will keep happening no matter what the complaint is or who's making it.

 

[Mr F.]

The ayes have it! We are all agreed! There is an issue, whether it is big or small is of no matter. The majority of people here think there is an issue.

Now can we move on?

No. Of course not.

Someone has to insinuate I am only a feminist because I want to have sex (Incorrect. Although I wouldn't mind having a partner again.). Or state that the issue is just as bad for men (Incorrect) or construct a strawman so large that strawman has entered into a civil partnership with another strawman and adopted some straw babies. Maybe someone needs to state that "FEMINISTS ARE ALL HYPOCRITES" and then rage about how they only want to get rid of the things that men like. Or how they only care about quotas for the GOOD jobs. Or how conscription and world war one make it all ok.

There is an issue. Its pretty shit. Women have a bad lot in games. It could be better. We do need to talk about it, because this is a growing site and people might notice, eventually. Yes, we need to talk with our wallets, but we cannot compete with the douchecunt Call of Duty crowd so games like that need to be forgotten. No, boycotting games that do it wrong does not work, because if we boycott games with a strong female character just because they do it badly they might not get the right idea. No, Dead or Alive is NOT a good benchmark and people on my side of the debate would do everyone a favour by dropping it (Seriously, feminists, lets drop it. Its like complaining about violence in the media and then only citing /r/gore or /r/wtf. Yes, reddit is media and yes, those places have violence and gore, but still.)

You know what guys? In a few days I am going to make a feminism thread. I am going to request it gets stickied. I will make it nice and simple, I will try and explain the movement (Past and present) and why it is still relevant. It will probably get ignored, or create a dozen pages of progressively more incoherent vitriol, but whatever, I will have done my bit and justified my degree.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I certainly understand the frustration. I'd love to see more titles with sensibly dressed, smart female protagonists. I also happen to enjoy the T&A. I don't understand the "all or nothing" mindset so many people have with this debate.

Very few people actually demand "nothing".

I meant "nothing" referring to the T&A. Not women in games. If that was the misunderstanding anyway...if not, then I disagree.

I've seen plenty of people across many different forums/sites/comments sections lambasting any and all sexualization of females in games. Which is why they're being met with so much resistance from a sizable chunk of the male gamer demo, I'd imagine.

If the argument were more focused on increasing character variety, rather than demonizing sexuality, then the movement would be getting more traction with its "opposition." Imo.

 

[deadish]

The whole thing is freaking ridiculous to begin with.

It's entertainment people. It's fantasy. It's escapism. Of course they are going to put out whatever appeals to the audience's fantasies. If it doesn't appeal to you ... It just means you aren't part of the target audience.

Yes, most of it are targeted at men. That because men have been known to be "regular customers".

It's like complaining why cosmetic ads don't target men much. Why? Because we aren't "worth it"? Come to think of it, yes, we aren't. Not from the companies' marketing expenditure point of view.

 

[CloudAtlas]

I certainly understand the frustration. I'd love to see more titles with sensibly dressed, smart female protagonists. I also happen to enjoy the T&A. I don't understand the "all or nothing" mindset so many people have with this debate.

Very few people actually demand "nothing".

I meant "nothing" referring to the T&A. Not women in games. If that was the misunderstanding anyway...if not, then I disagree.

I've seen plenty of people across many different forums/sites/comments sections lambasting any and all sexualization of females in games. Which is why they're being met with so much resistance from a sizable chunk of the male gamer demo, I'd imagine.

If the argument were more focused on increasing character variety, rather than demonizing sexuality, then the movement would be getting more traction with its "opposition." Imo.

With "nothing" I meant that very few people demand no sexualization in games whatsoever. Or that they "demonize sexuality", for that matter.

I would be happy if the debate focused on more variety, better characterization (of which the physical appearance is a part of), and better storytelling. You just can't. No matter how modest your wish, there'll be plenty of people fretting about censorship, freedom of art and economic necessities, moral crusaders, the evils of feminism, and all sorts of other things. Doesn't even matter if they agree with you on the subject, they'll fight you no matter what. They fight against enemies that only exist in their head, against demands nobody has ever made. And I just don't know what you could do about that.

Edit: Personally, I don't mind sexuality in games at all. I would just wish that devs would put a bit more effort into titillating me than your average porn director.

 

[Smeatza]

I would argue the same. But you shouldn't include such sensitive content, be it sexism, racism, whatever, just because. It should matter for the narrative of your game. Although, of course, that is true for all content.
I want to emphasize however that I am not claiming here that games are violating this "rule" with regards to such content often, lest I be accused of complaining about a non-issue or something.

Ah I see, and certainly agree. Yeah when reference to a particular issues ventures into the realm of exploitation (which is quite easily done) then there are issues to be addressed.

For example, I'm currently playing Bioshock Infinite (for the first time; no spoilers please), and the society of Columbia is pretty racist, but it seems to matter for the narrative, and you can take a stand on the issue as well.

Very much so, although I find most of the time developers are afraid to address such issues in such a direct (and therefore refreshing) manner, and prefer a metaphorical approach.

I still wonder whether a revenge fantasy, such as Django Unchained, would make for a good game...

I've always thought so, after hearing about but before seeing that kill-the-cat callers game, I was excited for the possible Postal type vibes.

 

[CloudAtlas]

For example, I'm currently playing Bioshock Infinite (for the first time; no spoilers please), and the society of Columbia is pretty racist, but it seems to matter for the narrative, and you can take a stand on the issue as well.

Very much so, although I find most of the time developers are afraid to address such issues in such a direct (and therefore refreshing) manner, and prefer a metaphorical approach.

I can hardly blame them - it's a tricky thing to do well, and many developers already have problems with telling much simpler narratives. Easier to set your game in a fictional universe if you want to weave racism into your narrative. With elves or aliens that think little of the human race, everyone can 'enjoy' the same experience of being subjected to racism. To come up with fictional genders seems like a harder task though...

Edit:

I still wonder whether a revenge fantasy, such as Django Unchained, would make for a good game...

I've always thought so, after hearing about but before seeing that kill-the-cat callers game, I was excited for the possible Postal type vibes.[/quote]

I'd definitely like to try out such a game. Better than saving the world from ancient evil all the time.