Poll: Anti-BioWare backlash?

[Aircross]

The vicious cycle of the greedy publisher running the talent out of amazing developers continues.

Quantity over quality.

Nothing new.

F*ck you EA for ruining BioWare.

 

[Epona]

The vicious cycle of the greedy publisher running the talent out of amazing developers continues.

Quantity over quality.

Nothing new.

F*ck you EA for ruining BioWare.

...and the vicious cycle of apologists defending it continues. Now they want polls or you MUST be lying. If you had a poll, they would say the sample size is too small or whatever.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

...and the vicious cycle of apologists defending it continues. Now they want polls or you MUST be lying. If you had a poll, they would say the sample size is too small or whatever.

No, we just want you to speak for yourself, and not imply that you have the support of "most people", or "most true fans", or whatever other fallacy you're propping your argument up with. You think Bioware abandoned you? Fine. You prefer old school RPGs? Fine. Leave this "most people" crap at the door, though. You are not the voice of the common man. You are not the voice of the forgotten RPG enthusiast. You are the voice of Crono1973, and that is all.

 

[Epona]

...and the vicious cycle of apologists defending it continues. Now they want polls or you MUST be lying. If you had a poll, they would say the sample size is too small or whatever.

No, we just want you to speak for yourself, and not imply that you have the support of "most people", or "most true fans", or whatever other fallacy you're propping your argument up with. You think Bioware abandoned you? Fine. You prefer old school RPGs? Fine. Leave this "most people" crap at the door, though. You are not the voice of the common man. You are not the voice of the forgotten RPG enthusiast. You are the voice of Crono1973, and that is all.

I am speaking for myself and all that I have read about the subject.

Perhaps you have a poll to prove me wrong?

 

[Uriain]

The vicious cycle of the greedy publisher running the talent out of amazing developers continues.

Quantity over quality.

Nothing new.

F*ck you EA for ruining BioWare.

I fail to see how BioWare is ruined?. You dont seem to like the new direction that DA2 and ME2/3 took/are taking?? then, that is your opinion. My opinion is that DA2 was a good game, as was ME2. ME3 (to me) is looking good, and I like the options they are giving us.

So with our difference of opinion what do we do... You say "F*ck you EA for ruining BioWare" and I say "maybe hold judgement on a game not out yet until you get to at least test on the demo".

The amount of instantaneous backlash continues to amaze me.

 

[DustyDrB]

I still liked Dragon Age 2 quite a bit, though not as much as most other games they made. It's not my least favorite by them (that would be Jade Empire. I like the idea, but not the execution), and it doesn't change my opinion of them. Mass Effect 3 is truly looking like it will be the best in the series, with both improved combat and RPG mechanics. We'll see, though. But, no, I still love BioWare.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I am speaking for myself and all that I have read about the subject.

Perhaps you have a poll to prove me wrong?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

I'm not the one arguing that "most people" support my perspective. In fact, I'm willing to bet you don't actually know what my perspective is. You just labelled me a "Bioware apologist" reflexively and went straight to the attack.

 

[Epona]

I am speaking for myself and all that I have read about the subject.

Perhaps you have a poll to prove me wrong?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

I'm not the one arguing that "most people" support my perspective. In fact, I'm willing to bet you don't actually know what my perspective is. You just labelled me a "Bioware apologist" reflexively and went straight to the attack.

Yes, it's true. Instead of giving us your perspective, you have spent your time attacking mine.

At this point, I don't really care.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Yes, it's true. Instead of giving us your perspective, you have spent your time attacking mine.

At this point, I don't really care.

I actually gave a cursory outline of my perspective in the 2nd post of this thread.

I've not attacked you once. I've asked you to clarify your position, and to stop using logical fallacies. Neither of those qualifies as an attack. Calling people "Bioware Apologists" qualifies as an attack. Spamming the forums with all caps profanity qualifies as an attack. Asking you what Bioware's roots are, or saying that you can't lay claim to "most people" as phantom support for your position...those are not attacks. That's having a discussion, which you repeatedly state is what you come into these threads for.

 

[boag]

The only Game from Bioware I ever really played was Mass Effect.

TOR never really attracted my attention, and I almost started playing Dragon Age, until reviews of the second game hit around and I was able to get more informed.

So yeah, I dont have much experience with the company aside from the ME franchise, and I dont expect to carry on with them for any future projects unless something comes along that entices me.

 

[Aircross]

I fail to see how BioWare is ruined?. You dont seem to like the new direction that DA2 and ME2/3 took/are taking?? then, that is your opinion. My opinion is that DA2 was a good game, as was ME2. ME3 (to me) is looking good, and I like the options they are giving us.

So with our difference of opinion what do we do... You say "F*ck you EA for ruining BioWare" and I say "maybe hold judgement on a game not out yet until you get to at least test on the demo".

The amount of instantaneous backlash continues to amaze me.

Dragon Age 2 is a soulless abomination that EA forced BioWare to develop in one year to cash in on Dragon Age: Origin's success.

 

[Wolfram23]

I never cared one way or the other. I had heard all about Baldur's Gate back in the day and really wanted to play it, but never had a chance until it was waaaayyy past it's prime. I did play a bit of Planescape Torment with my cousin, and I thought it was neat but that's about it (granted we're talking only several hours of playing it).

I didn't really see BioWare again until Mass Effect, which I never got around to playing for a long time. I don't own an Xbox, and it took a while to come out on PC. First I bought DA:O on PS3, which I thought was ok but it had elements I really didn't like much, from day 1 DLC to a pretty much non existant item leveling system (seriously - sell to vendor and buy back is how you level your gear??).

After that I did try ME, and after about 9 hours I was bored of it completely and never went back. Shoddy gameplay (combat) and overly long/boring socializing.

I got ME2 for free with DA2 on PC, but I don't think I've even installed it yet. DA2 I enjoyed for a while. I liked the action but still found there was a lot to be desired as far as character progression goes. I also didn't appreciate the non epicness of the game (as in, 1 city and about 4 outskirt locations).

So here we are, and I just don't give a shit about BioWare. I know they have talent so I do keep an eye on what they're coming out with, but it's rarely exciting to me.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

ouch

some major butthurt going on in this thread already.

butt I do believe they have shifted styles a bit, the roots are still clearly there however. They opened up new studios, hired new people, and are owned by EA....what the fuck do you expect? for everything to stay the same?

if so, then that's your viewpoint, but from the business/artistic sides, hell no is it going to stay the same, especially in this kind of economy, they are going to make money, they aren't going to please the few original fans that probably are the same ones who pirate the new games now.

 

[Oroboros]

I used to love Bioware, but I think they have been sliding down the slippery slope for quite some time. I liked the Baldur's Gate series, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect I, KOTOR, and Jade Empire, but even those games are not without their flaws. Mass Effect 2 and the Dragon Age series I do not like nearly so much. Bioware seems to constantly be tryingn to rewrite their own series through use of retcons and what many call 'casualization'-simplification of gameplay elements, basically. I suspect a lot of this plays into a desire to appeal to a wider audience, but it comes at a cost of inconsistancy within their own series in tone, plot, and gameplay, sometimes to the point of almost becoming a different genre then when a series started out. In addition, I would say that their 'original' settings of Dragon Age and Mass Effect aren't terribly original, and in fact have a tendancy to be a derrivitive mish-mash of other (In my opinion, better) settings. This is especially painfully obvious with Dragon Age in particualr-anyone who has any experience with Warhammer, Wheel of Time, LoTR, etc can tell you this.

In a nutshell, I stpped liking Bioware because they keep on retconning their settings, changing gameplay elements/genres, and seem to have lost the ability to create original settings of their own.

It's a bit disheartening for me, especially considering how much I liked their older games, but I have pretty much given up hope on them. At least there old games are still out there to be enjoyed though, as well as those of other developers.

sorry to double post here, but we posted apparently at the same time, and I have a couple of issues with your comments.

While its perfectly fine to not like (using your term) 'casualization' in games, that trend is not new to the industry, as games in General (minus a clear few like Ninja Gaiden/Demon Souls etc) have also been 'casualization' throughout the last 5-10 years. To put in perspective.. Contra as a kid (SNES) was bloody hard. Go play it now, its still bloody hard. There is a vast majority of games which are effected by this 'casualization'.

Secondly, your initial comments where how you really enjoyed games like NWN, Baldurs Gate, Jade Empire etc, but then say you didnt like ME2/DA series because they are copying other material. To me, that seems a bit of a catch 22, as NWN and Baldur's gate had heavy ties with the fantasy novels/D&D at the time.

I guess my main point I am trying to make is this. All of these games have some sort of "link" to other books/movies/games/lore.. So the "original settings of their own" I personally find to be a bit of a awkward statement, as (at least from my perspective) Jade Empire is really their biggest "standalone" title from the ones you listed.

Now dont get me wrong. If you dont like the games, that is totally fine.. I just think that the discussion of the REASONS for not liking or liking something is a good thing to discuss

I apologize, but I really don't think that an overaly trend of simplification in video games is good excuse for Bioware following suit. It does not automatically make Bioware's choice a good one. It just makes Bioware another developer that is giving in to the lowest common denominator. I do not mean that as an insult to anyone who lieks their games, mearly that they are trying to appeal to a broader audience with moves such as this. This may mean that a broader may enjoy their games, but they are less enjoyable to the narrower band which they targeted previously. This means that there is increasingly less games to turn to for those who used to enjoy that particular style of rpg. And yes, I agree that there is something of a simplification trend across the board, and my stance is that this is rather stiffling for diversity-this is why so many shooters are starting to blend together, and why genres like platformers and flight simulators are disappearing altogether. What we get are a bunch of jack of all trade games-games that cover as large an audience as possible-but also masters of none in that they don't cover any particular niche very well.

Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights were set in the Forgotten Realms D&D setting. KOTOR is set in the Star Wars setting. Working within an existing setting is not necessarily lazy-you have to make it consistent within said setting, which will invariably have limitations, rules, etc with varying degrees of elasticity with which the developer of a video game can work without breaching the setting. The fact that Bioware was able to work within the limitations of Star Wars and Forgotten Realms to deliver as gripping tales as they did without bastardizing the setting is to their credit as writers.

Likewise, creating new and original setting, while still having it be relatable has its own challenges. It has to be familiar enough for the player to not be drawn out of the game, while being unique enough to be memorable and hold the audience's attention. You can draw from existing sources as inspiration (see the plethora of dwarves and elves in various fantasy settings)It's best to attempt to put one's own spin on things though to make them stand out (and thus be more memorable and more likely to hold the audience's attention) For example, the Dwarves of Morrowind and LoTR are pretty different. Likewise, the Shadowspawn from Wheel of Time are quite different from the orcs of LoTR despite the setting being inspired from LoTR.

What Bioware has increasingly been doing has been just taking parts from various other settings and changing the names, sometimes not even bothering with that. Anyone who has watched Farscape for instance, will likely notice the similarity between Zhan and the Asari, likewise for Babylon 5, and the Whitestar and the Normandy. They got even lazier with Dragon Age though. The most obvious for me being the similarities between Wheel of Time and Dragon Age. Wheel of time has Shadowspawn, Dragon Age has Darkspawn. Wheel of time has Trollocs, Dragon Age has the Hurlocks. Wheel of Time has the Blight, Dragon Age has the...Blight. All of these things not only have similar names, but also analogous in their function: Trollocs are once-human Shadowspawn who serve the dark lord and live in the Blight, a region of chaos that corrupts and mutates anythign that lives in it for long. The Hurlocks are once-human Darkspawn that serve the archdemon, and invade in an occurance called a Blight. Anythign that comes in contact with a a darkspawn for long can become corrupted, mutated and evil.

The worst part however, is that Bioware cannot keep their own (rather derivitive) settings and plots in line with previous games from the same setting. Witness the heat sink fiasco in ME2, retconning the Geth to switch sides, and and the convoluted railroading Bioware had to go through to get Shepard working for Cerberus, etc. Or Qunari suddenly getting horns and ridiculous gorilla musculature in DA II, or TOR being as far removed from KOTOR and KOTOR II as earth is from the moon.

Bioware has been exhibiting less and less creative drive, less complexity in their games, and a disregard towards their own plots and settings, fiddling with them with each new game like Lucas and Star Wars (some people may not find it distracting, but others do.) While they may still amke decent games, in the big picture of things, compared to their past games, they have been going downhill. This is why I voted them as not being the developer they used to be.

 

[AlternatePFG]

I don't really like BioWare much anymore at all (It's not like I even dislike them, it's just that their games don't appeal to me anymore. Not that they're bad, it's just that I'm not into them) but the massive amount of hate they get now in general is absurd. I used to remember when I complained that this forum spent too much time drooling over them, it's funny how much can change in such a short period of time.

 

[Sabertooth]

By taking the "mainstream" path over the wishes of their fans.

Most people didn't like the changes from ME1 to ME2. Likewise, most people didn't like the changes from DAO to DA2. Most people would have preferred a KOTOR 3 instead of another MMO.

Selling out means abandoning the fans that made you successful.

Most people. Most people.

There's literally no response to this. Can I see the metric you're using, other than RAGING CONFIRMATION BIAS?

NO FUCKIN GRAPHS OR POLLS. IF THAT IS REQUIRED TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH BIOWARE ASSKISSERS THAN I AM DONE HERE.

Look I dunno where you come from, but here, there´s something called burden of proof. You made the claim, therefore you have to present evidence that supports your claim. Do so and I will conceded that you are right. Big angry letters won´t change that. We don´t have nothing to prove, you do.

 

[ResonanceSD]

Yup, they've gone down the drain. But who's surprised? They've cosyed up to EA, what did the community at large think was going to happen?

Remember kids, KOTOR and DA2 were made by the same developers. However, LucasArts published Kotor (same guys famed for ruining star wars) and Electronic Arts published Dragon Age 2.

 

[Loop Stricken]

I'm just blaming EA for everything at this point.

Mass Effect 3, the last EA game I knowingly buy, seems to be about 45% DLC at this point.

 

[Erttheking]

I feel like people are too eager to abandon ship with just about everything today...but then again I think that ME2 was a massive improvement over the first, so what do I know? I eagerly await ME3 with baited breath. Maybe I'm not that worked up because I have 0 interest in Dragon Age and by extent dragon age 2. I really only care about ME when it comes to Bioware frankly, and the way I see it they are handling it masterfully. But hey, people constantly bash Bungie for "catering to casuals" with Halo Reach, and it's my favorite game by them, so you'll forgive me if this tidal wave of cynicism isn't getting me down.

Also I would like to quote my father here. "When you're in business, trying to appeal solely to the same audience is the stupidest thing that you can do"