Poll: Are core gamers too harsh on Nintendo?

[Guitarmasterx7]

I don't get the point you're making. Nobody really claimed nintendo wasn't doing anything new, because the wii is probably the most original console out right now, the complaint is that they suck now because they're replacing the good stuff with their "new" ideas which are quite frankly, not as good. The things you listed are the main issue. Take this for example

DK has been a music game and a racer

When people think "donkey kong" they don't think "crappy rythm game in which you play the bongos." they think games like Donkey kong country or donkey kong 64. First of all, not only are rythm games and racers not a new concept, but these games ARE donkey kong games now, and since the previous DK games haven't been this kind of thing fans of the series who have supported nintendo over the years are left in the dust completely. If nintendo made a racing game, made it a new IP, and continued to make donkey kong games similar to the old ones, nobody would have a problem with that. But since new gimmicky crap games like this have replaced the DK franchise completely, people get pissed, and rightly so.

Plus a lot can be said about the fact that I have a wii and so far there's only 2 games for it that I thought where worthy of being called "good"

 

[UberMore]

Nowadays, yes. It's not Nintendo I despise, it's the Wii. Here, I'll count the games I give a fuck about on the Wii

Twilight Princess
Metroid 3(Maybe)
Red Steel 2
No More Heroes
No More Heroes 2
SSBB
Silent Hill: Shattered Memories

In comparison

PS3

Demon's Soul's
MGS 4
God Of War 3
Killzone 2
Star Wars The Force Unleashed
Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2
Dante's Inferno
Splinter Cell Conviction
Heavy Rain
Bayonetta
GTA IV
Borderlands
GTA: The Ballad Of Gay Tony
GTA: The Lost And Damned
Dragon Age Origins
Yakuza 3
Mafia II
Alpha Protocol
Bioshock
Bioshock 2


360

Halo 3
Dead Rising
Dead Rising 2
Mass Effect
Mass Effect 2
Alpha Protocol
Star Wars The Force Unleashed
Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2
Dante's Inferno
Borderlands
Gears Of War 2
Red Dead Redemption
Bioshock
Bioshock 2
Splinter Cell Conviction
Mafia II
GTA IV
GTA: The Ballad Of Gay Tony
GTA: The Lost And Damned

Should I go on?

I agree with this comparison.
We core gamers had to grind our way from youth to perfect that headshot, map that level, learn that combo, solve that goddamn Prince of Persia SoT puzzle(!!) to get to where we are as gamers now...I'm guessing it's just a little annoying that people can become good at a game that requires none of that same grinding, just a flick of the wrist.

 

[zhoominator]

Honestly, no. Because Wii has like 2 or 3 games going for it right now, the rest are all either bad, or should really be classified as casual games. Not to mention that the main Nintendo franchises like Mario have all been pretty much milked dry. The games are still good don't get me wrong, its just that the concept really hasn't changed much, and its gotten stale.

I always love how people bashing Nintedo almost never beat on the DS. Why? Because it's awesome IMO. It has a wide selection of great new titles and updated classics, the only good Sonic games left and they manage almost every genre pretty well. My game breakdown collection:

PC: 10 games
PSOne: 13 games
PS2: 21 games
PS3: 3 games
Xbox360: 0 games
Wii: 0 games (I own neither of these)
SNES: 12 games
Mega Drive: 10 games
DS: 36 games (and all of them are good)

People like to beat on the franchises too but I've seen more variation between 14 Zelda games than I have in 100s of FPS and RTS games.

 

[morpher80]

I have always liked nintendo my first game system was the N64 and my favorite games are the zelda series. Yea sure the changed it around a little its not bad. The main reason i think people bash at the Wii is because Nintendo said they were going to make games for the hardcore gamers and theres only been a few games to please that group. Also the few games that have been out for hardcore gamers ie madworld they didnt get very good reviews so people didnt buy them. The only good FPS ive played on the Wii was Medal of Honor Heros 2 mainly because it had the online play so if you got mad or stuck in single player you could just go online and take it out on other people.

 

[Jark212]

It's like meth users making fun of cocaine users because there not "hardcore"...

I'd be a meth addict...

 

[Treblaine]

I like violent games as much as the next red blooded male (and err, I guess chicks like em too, huh) but damn it if it doesn't drain you after a while incinerating your umpteenth Japanese Soldier with a Flame thrower seconds before he bayonets you through the eye socket... that's where a fun adventure platformer can come in perfect, exploring, looting, leveling up.

I don't mean to paint you as some square headed jock who can't have bloodless fun, I'm sure that's not the case, but you may have left that unintended impression with your post.

I left the impression that I'm some square headed jock? How? I can't help but feel that this is some kind of gigantic stereotypical generalisation you're placing on me. Yes because I dislike things that don't have me in mind as their target audience, I must be some square headed jock who can't have bloodless fun. Bravo. *slow clap*

I've never owned an xbox and I don't play first person death match multiplayer type games. I also dont play sports games, racing games, or even play physical sports (so much for that jock comment huh?). I enjoy a good adventure game, in fact Beyond Good and Evil was an amazing game I can point to and say, "hey this game would be good for kids, but do you know what, it also had some thought provoking and quality content in there for more mature people to enjoy" because well it kind of did. Sometimes (read: most of the time) I just need a bit more from my games then "you need to save this person because... you are the good guy and thats what good guys do... and you need to defeat this guy because... he is bad... and thats what you do with bad people... grey areas? screw that! motivation? pfft whatever"

I find it hilarious that apparently you think in extremes. I don't like lighthearted games so I must be the opposite! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!! Whatever dude... stick with logical arguements, reasoning, and making points, leave the gross generalisations to the rest of the Escapist community.

I said I DON'T mean to paint you as a square headed jock! I said that was surely NOT your case.

Don't get so worked up with fisking random people over small semantic details or similarly moan about whether you are in Nintendo's "target market". Games like Zelda: Twilight Princess and Mario Galaxy transcend any "target market" bullcrap and are just really really great games that I (and many others) cannot recommend enough to ALL gamers. And these are the games that Nintendo does best even on the Wii, even though they are ostensibly "made for kids" like Toy Story.

You are entitled to your opinion but personally I don't think games necessarily need to have enemies with "shades of grey" for them to be good when that rule certainly does not apply for films or books or most other media where it is perfectly accepted to have a clear cut and unambiguously bad bad guy. Games are all about objectives and achieving them... unclear enemy, unclear objective... I don't know, there is a reason very few games do that successfully.

I mean is it really Nintendo's problem having black and white enemies? Where is the grey in Modern Warfare 2? Where is the grey in Batman Arkham Asylum? Where is the grey area in Uncharted 2?

Games have to be enjoyable to play above all else, plot is important but far from paramount.

 

[LitleWaffle]

A lot of games on the wii are good.
Sensitivity wise, i have never had a problem with it. Sometimes if i move it off the screen it takes like 2 seconds to get back, but you get used to keeping it in the screen.
Games are actually really good, though i normally like to play games that use the gamecube controller. However, some of the motion games are pretty fun. These games feel like classic fun to me other than just frustration (MW2, Halo 3 etc).

 

[commasplice]

You can play pokemon red/blue and you can get damn near the same experience.

Not true. While, yes, the fundamental concept of "collect pokemon, make them fight each other" is still the same, they've added a lot of stuff to the gameplay over the years. Yes, it's still turn-based and yes, a lot of the changes were rather minor, but the sheer amount of minor changes that they've made add up to bigger ones. Basically, what you're saying is that, because FFX and FFI both revolve around the concept of exploration and turn-based combat, they're interchangeable.

Racers: Every other twat gets a racer...They aren't really an involvement in the series and have pretty much 0 impact. It is just a side thing. In terms of music games and the sports games, nintendo just slaps their characters on various sports games, and a lot of them suck, or are just ways of making cash.
Nintendo doesn't like to go outside the formula that works, and while the general phrase "if it isn't broken don't fix it" usually applies, why should anyone want to play essentially the same thing over and over. People want some sort of evolution in a game when it is applicable.

So...Let me get this straight: Nintendo doesn't deviate from their formula enough, but every time that they do, it doesn't count because some of those games aren't cannon and you don't like them? Say what you will about them, but Diddy Kong Racing, Pokemon Snap and Pokemon Pinball were some of my favorite games as a kid and discounting them because they're not main parts of the franchises is just retarded. And don't you think that excusing CoD from the same demands of every other game simply because it's "trying to be realistic" is kind of a cop-out? Half-Life is also a first-person shooter and it manages to feel plenty realistic despite all of its future weapons and interdimensional what-have-you. Hell, Valve even managed to take the same engine and apply it to a vastly different genre simply by changing the immediate setting and giving the player a single, new weapon.

And that is annoying to someone like me, who is trying to build of a collection of home entertainment systems based around everything being in HD resolution or using HDMI etc... Nintendo just seems to be the one dwelling in the past.

I'm gonna tell you a secret:

Spoiler

Many gamers can't afford giant, hi-def plasma TVs and surround sound speakers. Likewise, many gamers were attracted to the Wii because of its comparatively low price. Yeah, maybe the 360 and PS3 have caught up now, but they started off much higher up the in the price range.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Nintendo can make great games if they're not waggle controlled.

 

[dragontiers]

They are constricted by reality, you can't all of a sudden have a baseball player pull out a glock while he is running towards first shoot the firstbase man in the head, round towards second a melee the 2nd baseman, people would be like WTF?!

Have you never played Base Wars [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_Wars]? That and Mutant League Football are two of the very few sports games I actually enjoyed playing. Sorry, that's all I could think off when I read that.

 

[jdnoth]

Back in the day, Nintendo was fantastic, and developed some of the best games I've ever played: Zelda, Golden Sun, Pokermons, Super Smash Bros etc. They still make new games for 3/4 of the franchises I just mentioned, but they're no longer the main point of their focus. This means that whilst we may still get fantastic additions to the old franchises, we probably won't be getting any new incredible franchises, and the old classics will become stale(er) as they're rehashed for the fiftieth time.

I also have a problem with the gimmicky control systems. There are some DS games I'd really like to play, but I don't want to fiddle around with a microphone and a stylus whilst doing so; It's just not my cup of tea.

I just don't like the direction they're moving in.

 

[Taerdin]

Don't get so worked up with fisking random people over small semantic details or similarly moan about whether you are in Nintendo's "target market".

Moan? Really? I like to think of it as discussing... on a discussion forum no less. I'm sorry if you don't 'see it that way' but when businesses make products they certainly have a target market. Peope don't just make something and say "EVERYONE WILL LIKE THIS EVER" because... uhh... that doesnt ever happen. They have to say, hmm this will appeal to these people because this so lets make it with them in mind.

Games like Zelda: Twilight Princess and Mario Galaxy transcend any "target market" bullcrap and are just really really great games that I (and many others) cannot recommend enough to ALL gamers. And these are the games that Nintendo does best even on the Wii, even though they are ostensibly "made for kids" like Toy Story.

I don't think anything transcends the idea of a target market, that just sounds like a silly statement to me. I realize you must have a 24/7 hardon for nintendo to even be in this discussion with me, but I'm sure even you can see that Mario is targeted towards younger players. I mean the way they hand hold you through the beginning of the game, the colorful 'out of a kids picture book' worlds, the one dimensional easy to understand characters, etc.

I'm sure I could get some enjoyment out of Mario Galaxy but its not on the top of my list. Zelda has seemed too formulaic for far to long for me to try it again, plus I've heard a pretty resounding 'meh' from nonfanboys about it so I doubt that particular installment is going to change my mind.

You are entitled to your opinion but personally I don't think games necessarily need to have enemies with "shades of grey" for them to be good when that rule certainly does not apply for films or books or most other media where it is perfectly accepted to have a clear cut and unambiguously bad bad guy. Games are all about objectives and achieving them... unclear enemy, unclear objective... I don't know, there is a reason very few games do that successfully.

They certainly don't have to have shades of grey, but thats just an idea of how a game could have slightly more dimension and depth. I was also talking a lot about motivation, I mean I guess the motivation for saving the princess is pretty apparent, but why does she really get kidnapped in the first place? What are your villains goals? Whats his story? What about your character? I could go on but I'm not trying to prove myself in front of a jury of my peers for fear of death or something, you should get the general idea of what I mean. Mario's plot reads like a childrens story, its not a concidence.

I mean is it really Nintendo's problem having black and white enemies? Where is the grey in Modern Warfare 2? Where is the grey in Batman Arkham Asylum? Where is the grey area in Uncharted 2?

I had written out this giant piece highlighting possible grey areas in these games, but really it doesn't matter. I havent actually played any of those games, and even if those games didn't have grey areas that doesn't disprove my point. To say that the plots of those games is less mature than say Mario or Zelda is laughable at best, or completely pathetic insane fanboyism at worst.

Games have to be enjoyable to play above all else, plot is important but far from paramount.

This is true. But when the less important plot is simple and childish, I can easily see how that would detract from the experience for someone of an older age. For instance, I don't need to spend an hour listening to laughable plots like this




"Wow sure is peaceful today, eh Bro?
...
It just makes you want a.... KERBLOOEY! Y'know? Some kind of shocking event..."

Yes Luigi... a Kerblooey. I can't see how you can debate with me that this is not written with children in mind. I mean besides the fact that the last time I've heard someone say kerblooey is... never... if you can actually sit through that entire video without skipping ahead or navigating away then I dont know what to say to you. This is the kind of thing that might be entertaining to my child, but to me its just nonsense that I would hastily skip through in order to get to the 'game' part of the game. In fact I watched someone about my age play that, and he was "mashing the button like the fist of the north star" and saying "words words words" like he couldn't care less about the childish plot, and I'd have to agree.

 

[DustyDrB]

As a game developer, Nintendo is insanely consistent. The third parties are the ones making the awful games (not to say that there aren't any good 3rd part Wii games, because there are).

 

[RUINER ACTUAL]

Nintendo was known for making the core gamers console. NES, SNES, N64. Then the GameCube came out. People didnt really question it, except it looked a bit funny- purple lunch box jokes and such. Than the Nintendo Revolution was announced. "This is going to be another great console." one thinks. They change the name to the Wii. Did you defend this name change? Then games start rolling out. They don't play like everyone thought. You can play the games by putting the controller into a clothing dryer. If they stop copying and pasting Mario games and put some effort towards some of these games, then the criticism will be lifted some. Also, HD has exploded in the time since the 360 launch (partly because of it and the PS3), and who wants to look at 10 year old graphics on their LCD TV?

 

[almostgold]

Forgive them, Yahtzee says rags on Nintendo. Thay cant help it. Maybe a good point about reusing franchies though. Tell you what: Play Station gamers, you can response to my allegations after you finish playing FF XIII. Xbox kids, you have some time before the SIXTH HALO GAME IN A DECADE comes out.

 

[DustyDrB]

who wants to look at 10 year old graphics on their LCD TV?

I do. I stopped caring about graphics getting better about 5 years ago.

 

[Treblaine]

And that is annoying to someone like me, who is trying to build of a collection of home entertainment systems based around everything being in HD resolution or using HDMI etc... Nintendo just seems to be the one dwelling in the past.

I'm gonna tell you a secret:

Spoiler

Many gamers can't afford giant, hi-def plasma TVs and surround sound speakers. Likewise, many gamers were attracted to the Wii because of its comparatively low price. Yeah, maybe the 360 and PS3 have caught up now, but they started off much higher up the in the price range.

Well now things have changed quite a bit and I can no longer afford Standard Definition(!) in a round about way.

Look, you can buy a 24inch computer monitor with HDMI input (native res = 1920x1080) for about £160, that will handle all the high resolution output of my PC, Xbox Arcade and good old 1st-Gen PS3. Don't ask me why a computer monitor can be so much cheaper than a HDTV (I assure you they have the same quality screens + superior refresh rate), it has something to do with market dynamics.

£160 is NOT too expensive for 1080p resolution, and a monitor that can provide output for THREE different platforms. I live in small student digs, I don't have a computer space and then a TV space, I have one space for EVERYTHING.(they have component inputs) = 3-4x more expensive for virtually the same specs! Also, buying a HDTV I will then have to pay the TV licence in my country = £150 per year

I know there are work around such as using a VGA box or video capture card... but this is all getting too complicated and more added expenses.

Look, I know Nintendo is a business and they want to appeal to the widest audience possible, but failing to include a digital output means they fail to cater to young adults like me who are leaving home (and their parents' TVs) and trying to assemble an all-digital home entertainment setup.

Actually, Nintendo wouldn't need to make a DVI/HDMI cable... no no no, just an official VGA cable. I hear that one does exist in many unsubstantiated forum rumours but they seem to be as rare as hen's teeth! I've been using the official VGA cable with my Xbox Arcade faultlessly.

There are a lot of games on the Wii that really interest me... but at the moment It just doesn't fit with the setup I have.

 

[HassEsser]

I think regular gamers are too harsh on Nintendo. You know, people who only play 360 or only play PS3. Casual gamers are loving Nintendo, and these "Core" gamers (aka Hardcore gamers)whom you refer to in your title play Nintendo games. That is why they are considered Hardcore gamers, because they play everything.

And since there are more regular gamers than either of the other two, you are right in saying that gamers are hard on Nintendo. Although, wrongfully so. I am eagerly awaiting the new Zelda and new Galaxy games, because I loved their first iterations.

 

[Mr. Gency]

I voted yes not becaus of Nintendo's game liebery, but because Nintendo waited 3 years to fix their motion controls, showed no suport for 3rd parties (most companies didn't hear about wii motion+ until they annouced it at E3), and the Vitality Sensor what the fuck is a Vitality Sensor!?

 

[Treblaine]

.... (snipped out excessive fisking)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisking

Seriously... dude.

I'm not a Nintendo fanboy, I don't own a Wii nor have any current plans of getting one, I bought a 2nd hand Gamecube just as soon as the market for them completely collapsed and I could get one for £20. FYI I have already made a long post about how much I find the Wii annoying though I cannot deny that nentendo has some good 1st party games and other exclusives too.

Zelda and Mario games have consistently achieved universal acclaim, you don't need to hear it from me to know how well they do it, just see some of The Escapist's own Moviebob's opinions and the opinions of dozens of other adult critics and journalist who heap so much praise on these game and NOT just from the perspective of what a child would like.

To be honest I think if you have a problem with those games it is not just because they are childish.

I still think you are just looking for problems with Nintendo franchises rather then even trying to appreciate them for what they are. I mean the up-beat and "childish" Mario and Luigi are a refreshing change from the typical emo gits like Raiden and Cloud Strife or the gruff and stoic Solid Snakes and Marcus Fenixs of gaming. It just seems asinine to make issue with the dialogue in a Mario game when the entire reason people PLAY those games is for the fun GAMEPLAY.

Stories don't have to be told through hour long cutscenes, take Half Life 2, one of my favourite games because it is able to so effectively tell the story through and within the gameplay, the world as you discover it and interact with it you learn about what kind of world planet earth has become.

The MOTIVATION in a Mario game is ADVENTURE, fun, exploration, the joy of jumping and platforming which essentially ALL games boil down to. Where is the motivation in say a classic board game like Monopoly? You are playing for quite literally monopoly money, should the game come with scripts for each player to role-play a different character like a yuppie-upstart, an old-school banker or foreign interest? No of course not, because it's just a game.