Poll: Are dating games misogynistic?

Recommended Videos

MetalMagpie

New member
Jun 13, 2011
1,523
0
0
BluebellForest said:
MetalMagpie said:
Well, the traditional words-on-paper romance novels are almost all aimed at women. I wonder if there's a trend that women generally prefer using their imagination (e.g. prompted by reading a book) over viewing images.
I think it's more that in our culture, men would be looked down on for indulging in 'erotic literature' whereas it's commonplace for women due to long established boundries. However, in Japan there is less sex and more indulgence in the fantasising of the anime media, why hardly any of it as aimed at women is, I presume because their culture views the women as less sexually interested, hence why there's less sex overall.

Maybe I'm just talking out of my hat here :|

As for myself, I've never been interested in reading a book about two people having sex, just as I'm not interested in watching two people have sex (porn) because it doesn't involve me. Even when the stories are Mary Sues, I'd rather play a visual novel because I can make my own decisions there and choose my own characters etc.
So it's considered "normal" for women to like erotic literature and men to like porn. Makes sense. And you may be right about the view in Japan.

Personally, watching sex scenes in films/animation/games etc. makes me feel quite awkward (especially if any of the actors/characters look into the camera). Whereas I'll admit to quite liking erotic lit. There's something more private (and more intimate) about a medium where I supply the images.

So visual novels aren't exactly "my bag", but there's got to be a market for ones aimed at women.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

New member
Aug 28, 2008
4,696
0
0
MetalMagpie said:
BluebellForest said:
MetalMagpie said:
Well, the traditional words-on-paper romance novels are almost all aimed at women. I wonder if there's a trend that women generally prefer using their imagination (e.g. prompted by reading a book) over viewing images.
I think it's more that in our culture, men would be looked down on for indulging in 'erotic literature' whereas it's commonplace for women due to long established boundries. However, in Japan there is less sex and more indulgence in the fantasising of the anime media, why hardly any of it as aimed at women is, I presume because their culture views the women as less sexually interested, hence why there's less sex overall.

Maybe I'm just talking out of my hat here :|

As for myself, I've never been interested in reading a book about two people having sex, just as I'm not interested in watching two people have sex (porn) because it doesn't involve me. Even when the stories are Mary Sues, I'd rather play a visual novel because I can make my own decisions there and choose my own characters etc.
So it's considered "normal" for women to like erotic literature and men to like porn. Makes sense. And you may be right about the view in Japan.

Personally, watching sex scenes in films/animation/games etc. makes me feel quite awkward (especially if any of the actors/characters look into the camera). Whereas I'll admit to quite liking erotic lit. There's something more private (and more intimate) about a medium where I supply the images.

So visual novels aren't exactly "my bag", but there's got to be a market for ones aimed at women.


Actually, the above isn't entirely accurate. There's a whole genre of anime/manga called yaoi which is entirely based on women customers. Women in Japan fetishize male homosexuality actually and that genre is full of it so it is definitely NOT the cup of green tea that the average heterosexual porn-consumer would go for...but heterosexual women eat that stuff up!


There's also the visual kei bands, which is like the idols but for women. They're smaller but they exist.
 

Danny Ocean

Master Archivist
Jun 28, 2008
4,148
0
0
Lenin211 said:
My friend and I were having a discussion today about dating games. She said that because dating games portray women as things to be "won", it objectifies women. She said that it portrays women as a problem for men to overcome. I took the stance that they are probably not misogynistic because they don't actively "hate" women. The discussion got me thinking though, do dating games objectify women?
If dating games are misogyny then Twilight and assorted spicy books are misandry.

Wow, that word wasnt even in the dictionary. Knowledge time, chrome!

It's called misandry, from the Greek, literally, hatred of men.

"Misandry (IPA [mɪ.ˈsæn.dri]) is the hatred of men. The word comes from misos (Greek μίσος, "hatred") + andras (Greek ἀνδρας, "man"). Although misandry is sometimes confused with misanthropy, the terms are not interchangeable, since the latter refers to the hatred of humanity. An idea related to misandry is androphobia, the fear of men (male humans), but not necessarily the hatred of them."

Causes of misandry

Misandry is usually, but not exclusively, associated with women although men can also hold misandric views. Misandry is discussed less frequently than misogyny, and is also less understood, there is increasing research into and discussion about the topic. However, according to pioneering researchers Nathanson and Young (2001), "misandry in popular culture remains a dark secret" and "gender watchdogs" use a double standard that exposes the evils of mysogyny but is "notably silent" about even the existence of misandry. They assert that "unlike misogyny, misandry is still generally unrecognized as a problem".

Nathanson and Young believe that the gynocentric use of the word "gender" as a tool to blame all men "as those who created the problem of "gender" in the first place" form the root assumptions for modern misandry. To Nathanson and Young, this has meant that men are society's official scapegoats responsible for all evil, women are society's offical victims responsible for all good, and that men must be penalized and women compensated collectively for crimes against women throughout history. They believe that underlying "gender" as social construct are core assumptions that "the end justifies the means", and that "collective rights trump individual rights".

Nathanson and Young (2001) assert that the roots of misandry can be found in 'ideological', (as opposed to other forms of) feminism. They believe that 'political correctness', academic deconstructionism and what they call "fronts" are strategies used by feminist ideologues to "make the world safe" for promoting a misandric worldview. They posit that underlying ideological feminism is "an ideology derived from Marxism and romanticism but with class or nation replaced by gender as the central concept" to perpetrate the intolerant hatred of men as a class.

Some feminists and masculists posit that the "war of the sexes" arising from traditional gender roles and their breakdown are the primary source of both misogyny and misandry.[citation needed]

Some masculists maintain that misandry has been endemic since the 1980s (Nathanson & Young, 2001, p. 234) stemming from the spread of anti-male feminist advocacy in popular culture, and thus assert that misandry has become a social pathology. Some feminists, however, controversially claim that misogyny is a verifiable social disease, but misandry may not exist at all (Nathanson & Young, 2001, p. 18].

[edit] Types of misandrists

* Male feminists or what Nathanson and Young call "honorary women" who self-righteously defend women from men to seek favor from women.
* Ideological feminists who see all men as evil brutes and all women as 'good' human beings
* Women who justify misandry is a legitimate "choice" for women or a "voice" for those who have been "silenced."
* Women who justify misandry as an expedient for political purposes.
* Women who justify misandry with "something far more sinister in mind: revenge".

Many of the quotes listed in the section below from famous feminist misandrists contain one or more of the types of misandry.

[edit] Types of misandry

Nathan and Young noted the following types of man-hating behavior in Spreading Misandry (2001):

* Laughing at Men: The Last of Vaudeville
* Looking Down on Men: Separate but Unequal
* Bypassing men: Women Alone Together
* Blaming Men: A History of Their Own
* Dehumanizing Men: From Bad Boys to Beasts
* Demonizing Men: The Devil is a Man

[edit] Degrees of misandry

Misandry may be exhibited to differing degrees. In its most overt expression, a misandrist openly hates all men simply because they are 'men', exhibiting 'masculine' traits that are not to the speaker's liking. Stereotypically, these 'masculine' traits include machismo, emotional bluntness, and a loutish demeanor. Or, a misandrist might simply hate men for a perceived common physical attribute, such as large muscles, a large gut, or copious body hair.

Other forms of misandry are more subtle. Some misandrists simply hold all men under suspicion, or hate men who do not conform to one or more acceptable categories. Entire cultures may be said to be misandrist if they treat men in ways that are perceived hurtful. Misandry is often not recognised, since it exists under many different guises, disguised and qualified. {Judith Levine, 'My Enemy, My Love', 1992}

Misandry is a negative attitude towards men as a group, and as such need not fully determine a misandrist's attitude towards each individual man. The fact that someone holds misandrist views may not prevent them from having positive relationships with some men. Conversely, simply having positive relationships with some men does not necessarily mean someone does not also hold misandrist views.
 

Cheesepower5

New member
Dec 21, 2009
1,142
0
0
Quite the contrary, I think they really like women. They might have a few big misconceptions about them, though, depending what game we're talking about.
 

Bara_no_Hime

New member
Sep 15, 2010
3,646
0
0
Lenin211 said:
My friend and I were having a discussion today about dating games. She said that because dating games portray women as things to be "won", it objectifies women. She said that it portrays women as a problem for men to overcome. I took the stance that they are probably not misogynistic because they don't actively "hate" women. The discussion got me thinking though, do dating games objectify women?
I suppose it depends on your definition of misogynistic, but... yeah, most dating games are a bit. If for no other reason than they are so vastly one-sided.

This is one reason I love Persona 3 Portable so much. As the male character, I can sleep with all the hot girls. As the FEMALE character, I can sleep with all the hot guys. That's called equality.

Anyway, either way it doesn't bother me too much. There are way worse things as far as sexism goes in games. The best dating games at least TRY to portray complex relationships or tell good stories (or both).

Or, well, Visual Novels do. I've mostly played Visual Novels and the Persona series, so I may be missing the exact sub-genre you're talking about in my personal experience.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

New member
Aug 28, 2008
4,696
0
0
Bara_no_Hime said:
Lenin211 said:
My friend and I were having a discussion today about dating games. She said that because dating games portray women as things to be "won", it objectifies women. She said that it portrays women as a problem for men to overcome. I took the stance that they are probably not misogynistic because they don't actively "hate" women. The discussion got me thinking though, do dating games objectify women?
I suppose it depends on your definition of misogynistic, but... yeah, most dating games are a bit. If for no other reason than they are so vastly one-sided.

This is one reason I love Persona 3 Portable so much. As the male character, I can sleep with all the hot girls. As the FEMALE character, I can sleep with all the hot guys. That's called equality.

Anyway, either way it doesn't bother me too much. There are way worse things as far as sexism goes in games. The best dating games at least TRY to portray complex relationships or tell good stories (or both).

Or, well, Visual Novels do. I've mostly played Visual Novels and the Persona series, so I may be missing the exact sub-genre you're talking about in my personal experience.


Hamuko also gets to sleep with the little Ken and she gets Aigis too...and Shinji...and Ryoji...I think her relationships are quite a bit more interesting than Minato's, it's actually funny that they wouldn't give the guy an obviously too-young (though they're all underage so whatever...and it is Japan :p) or same-sex partner but they did for the girl, it makes her options quite a bit more diverse and interesting in my opinion.

Since "Aigis for life" is my motto when playing p3 though I don't feel cheated, that's the only one I need. I guess it's why I still prefer FES overall...that epilogue...so touching. :p
 

Richardplex

New member
Jun 22, 2011
1,731
0
0
I have the feeling that reading every chapter of The World God Only Knows will not be enough to intelligently post here. Regardless, I shall post my completely opinion:

I think dating sims can go about this two ways. One would be the gaming equivalent of the pick up artist, which I think we all have our own opinion about... hopefully the same one. On the other hand, you can see it as a story based utterly on characterisation. Knowing the character, advancing your relationship with her, then ultimately have her fall in love with you and make her happy.

So basically, whether or not a dating sim/dating game/galge is misogynistic depends on whether or not the player is misogynistic. It allows those who are to be manipulative without anyone being a victim to this (or not, depends on the person again), and those who aren't to go have their awesome/not-so-awesome-YMMV relationship adventure.

Also, here's food for thought: If dating games about women exhibit dislike towards women, do dating games about pigeons exhibit dislike towards pigeons? Do we play pigeon dating sims because we dislike pigeons, or because we like/want-to-like pigeons?

http://hatoful.wordpress.com/2011/11/28/hatoful-boyfriend-in-english/
Yes, this is a thing, enrol now at St. PigeoNation's Institute.

And watch/read World God Only Knows, it's a dating sim parody that's ingenious, hilarious and completely unique.
 

blizzaradragon

New member
Mar 15, 2010
455
0
0
It entirely depends on the game, as there are some in the genre where the point is the sex and others out there where the point is the relationship. It also comes down to how the game portrays the characters you can go after. Are they flat characters where the obvious reasons to go after them are for things like sex appeal? If so they are misogynistic. Do the girls actually have personalities and flaws like a regular person? If so they aren't, and instead simply taking an aspect of real life and making it into a game.

Most of the dating games I've seen fall into the latter category, so I'd say a majority aren't misogynistic. Or if they are, then that must mean the concept of dating someone in real life is misogynistic as well...
 

Snowbell

New member
Apr 13, 2012
419
0
0
MetalMagpie said:
So visual novels aren't exactly "my bag", but there's got to be a market for ones aimed at women.
Sadly, I'm not sure that there is a market, a lot of the girls I know who read visual novels are very into yaoi and don't really care about a dating sim aimed at female protagonists.

I'd be interested to read a non-erotic, straight female protagonist (a good one though, not a pathetic/easily manipulated one) dating visual novel, mainly to see how I react to it. I tried reading Fate/Stay Night, which has erotic scenes, but I couldn't finish it due to becoming horribly depressed by the fact that I'll never be as good as the girls in the sex/nudity scenes...but that's a whole other kettle of fish.
 

Gigano

Whose Eyes Are Those Eyes?
Oct 15, 2009
2,281
0
0
Obviously not.

First of all, they're fictional, and the people who play them recognize them as such. People who play Call of Duty aren't mass murderers who'll go nuts with an MP5K at any airport either. They know fantasy from reality, and most dating sims would undoubtedly be filed under unrealistic fantasy.

Now, if they took it to real life and were aiming to be pick up artists who were trying to "raise the score" in order to bed actual women, that'd possibly be rather jerkish (if not exactly unethical, women are quite capable of being consenting adults who just want some casual sex of their own).

There's also games aimed at women - the Yaoi and Otome genres - so it's not exactly a genre that's exclusively about men sexualizing women; It's more about sex and erotica in general, a subject which some puritans just can't handle, and will do anything to attack. And since the whole "god say it's bad" thing isn't really working anymore, "it's objectifying" is next in line. Because clearly no woman ever wanted to be considered sexy, be romanced, and have sex for her own pleasure.
 

NeutralDrow

New member
Mar 23, 2009
9,097
0
0
Sometimes, but not based on the gameplay. There's nothing inherently hateful or condescending about a game based around wooing someone and pursuing a relationship with them. In concept, you can even argue that it's exactly the opposite: in a true dating sim, you generally have to pursue a woman (I don't know of any otome equivalents, unlike with romantic visual novels) by building yourself into someone she likes and considers worthwhile. As opposed to real life, when you're perfectly capable of simply lying to get someone into bed, dating sims are games and still control their own stories, and your character's motivation and the results of their actions are more often than not pure.

No, if a dating sim can be considered misogynistic, it's entirely based on how the women in it are actually portrayed. I've only played a couple of games I would call actual "dating sims" (True Love and Casual Romance Club), but neither of them fit an accusation of misogyny.

BluebellForest said:
MetalMagpie said:
So visual novels aren't exactly "my bag", but there's got to be a market for ones aimed at women.
Sadly, I'm not sure that there is a market, a lot of the girls I know who read visual novels are very into yaoi and don't really care about a dating sim aimed at female protagonists.

I'd be interested to read an erotic, straight female protagonist (a good one though, not a pathetic/easily manipulated one) visual novel, mainly to see how I react to it.
I know there are otome games out there that aren't yaoi-based, though the only one I can name off the top of my head is Yo-Jin-Bo (which is non-ero). I'm looking for some, myself, out of curiosity.

I tried reading Fate/Stay Night, which has erotic scenes, but I couldn't finish it due to becoming horribly depressed by the fact that I'll never be as good as the girls in the sex/nudity scenes...but that's a whole other kettle of fish.
Setting aside that the erotic scenes are maybe a half-hour combined in a 40-60 hour game...you couldn't be as bad as Rin. I thought half the point of her scene was to laugh at the awkwardness, and the other half to cringe.
 

LadyRhian

New member
May 13, 2010
1,246
0
0
NeutralDrow said:
Sometimes, but not based on the gameplay. There's nothing inherently hateful or condescending about a game based around wooing someone and pursuing a relationship with them. In concept, you can even argue that it's exactly the opposite: in a true dating sim, you generally have to pursue a woman (I don't know of any otome equivalents, unlike with romantic visual novels) by building yourself into someone she likes and considers worthwhile. As opposed to real life, when you're perfectly capable of simply lying to get someone into bed, dating sims are games and still control their own stories, and your character's motivation and the results of their actions are more often than not pure.

No, if a dating sim can be considered misogynistic, it's entirely based on how the women in it are actually portrayed. I've only played a couple of games I would call actual "dating sims" (True Love and Casual Romance Club), but neither of them fit an accusation of misogyny.

BluebellForest said:
MetalMagpie said:
So visual novels aren't exactly "my bag", but there's got to be a market for ones aimed at women.
Sadly, I'm not sure that there is a market, a lot of the girls I know who read visual novels are very into yaoi and don't really care about a dating sim aimed at female protagonists.

I'd be interested to read an erotic, straight female protagonist (a good one though, not a pathetic/easily manipulated one) visual novel, mainly to see how I react to it.
I know there are otome games out there that aren't yaoi-based, though the only one I can name off the top of my head is Yo-Jin-Bo (which is non-ero). I'm looking for some, myself, out of curiosity.
For you, Drow: http://www.otomegames.com/games.shtml
 

NeutralDrow

New member
Mar 23, 2009
9,097
0
0
LadyRhian said:
NeutralDrow said:
BluebellForest said:
MetalMagpie said:
So visual novels aren't exactly "my bag", but there's got to be a market for ones aimed at women.
Sadly, I'm not sure that there is a market, a lot of the girls I know who read visual novels are very into yaoi and don't really care about a dating sim aimed at female protagonists.

I'd be interested to read an erotic, straight female protagonist (a good one though, not a pathetic/easily manipulated one) visual novel, mainly to see how I react to it.
I know there are otome games out there that aren't yaoi-based, though the only one I can name off the top of my head is Yo-Jin-Bo (which is non-ero). I'm looking for some, myself, out of curiosity.
For you, Drow: http://www.otomegames.com/games.shtml
Oh, awesome! Thanks!

Oh, good, and there's demos for some of them, too...
 

zehydra

New member
Oct 25, 2009
5,033
0
0
Fun fact, you can objectify women without being misogynistic.

Objectification is not nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be, and is a basis for a lot of basic human interaction.