If you think that constituted false advertising, as this actually does, then you are basically arguing that consumers didn't stand up for their rights then so...what? They shouldn't now? They are wrong now?DustlessDragoon said:
Poll: Are gamers today too self entitiled?
- Thread starter Dragoon
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Yes. But not so much in the examples you gave.
Being passionate about something like the ending to Mass Effect 3 makes sense to me. It evoked anger and a sense of betrayal, largely because of broken promises and a failure of tonal match to the rest of the trillogy. And for Dark Souls, there are a lot of folks who viciously resist GFWL for a number of reasons. Making a petition for there to be an option B doesn't seem wholely unreasonable.
However!
Gamers as a whole expect it all. We expect epic storytelling, sweeping worlds, amazing characters, clever puzzles- but not too clever, damnit, we better be able to solve them before our friends without a guide! -engaging gameplay, perfect voice acting, and zero glitches across every platform involved. We expect our games on time, our DLC free and/or released after the game has been out for a lengthy period of time with no trace of it on-disc, our developers to do it for the art, our publishers to always back the projects WE care about most, and to never have to say the letters 'DRM' anywhere near the context of the game.
In short, we want everything.
Now, is this a terrible thing? Not really. Gaming is a young medium. It's the job of both creators and consumers to push the medium as far and as hard as it'll go. Part of that is expectations on both sides.
Yet, we easily can take those expectations too far. We look at how one studio does things and expect the same out of all others, ignoring differences in technology, platform, conditions, who reports to who, what the rating boards demand, what the shareholders demand... ultimately, to put it in a simple way, we expect the lovechild of Bethesda and Valve, released as swiftly as a new Zynga game. And when it fails to live up to that, some of us get downright vile with their comments. THAT is when we become too entitled.
A friend once said that every bug and glitch you find in a game is just the stuff the QA team and programmers DIDN'T catch and fix; you never see behind the scenes, the daily grind, to make the games we praise and denounce. And that's probably for the best. It'd be like seeing the sausages get made for a lot of us.
To sum up, yeah, we can go too far, and be too thin-skinned when people call us out for it. It's what we love, it's a new medium, and we're wrapped up in it tightly. Is it universal? No. Is it frustrating? Yes. Is it unfair to the devs? Depends on if they deserved it or not.
Being passionate about something like the ending to Mass Effect 3 makes sense to me. It evoked anger and a sense of betrayal, largely because of broken promises and a failure of tonal match to the rest of the trillogy. And for Dark Souls, there are a lot of folks who viciously resist GFWL for a number of reasons. Making a petition for there to be an option B doesn't seem wholely unreasonable.
However!
Gamers as a whole expect it all. We expect epic storytelling, sweeping worlds, amazing characters, clever puzzles- but not too clever, damnit, we better be able to solve them before our friends without a guide! -engaging gameplay, perfect voice acting, and zero glitches across every platform involved. We expect our games on time, our DLC free and/or released after the game has been out for a lengthy period of time with no trace of it on-disc, our developers to do it for the art, our publishers to always back the projects WE care about most, and to never have to say the letters 'DRM' anywhere near the context of the game.
In short, we want everything.
Now, is this a terrible thing? Not really. Gaming is a young medium. It's the job of both creators and consumers to push the medium as far and as hard as it'll go. Part of that is expectations on both sides.
Yet, we easily can take those expectations too far. We look at how one studio does things and expect the same out of all others, ignoring differences in technology, platform, conditions, who reports to who, what the rating boards demand, what the shareholders demand... ultimately, to put it in a simple way, we expect the lovechild of Bethesda and Valve, released as swiftly as a new Zynga game. And when it fails to live up to that, some of us get downright vile with their comments. THAT is when we become too entitled.
A friend once said that every bug and glitch you find in a game is just the stuff the QA team and programmers DIDN'T catch and fix; you never see behind the scenes, the daily grind, to make the games we praise and denounce. And that's probably for the best. It'd be like seeing the sausages get made for a lot of us.
To sum up, yeah, we can go too far, and be too thin-skinned when people call us out for it. It's what we love, it's a new medium, and we're wrapped up in it tightly. Is it universal? No. Is it frustrating? Yes. Is it unfair to the devs? Depends on if they deserved it or not.
With Mass effect 3 this statement right here
is completely untrue. Gamers were promised a non 'choose a, b or c ending' and yet thats what they gave us so I think that everyone who is complaining about that has every right to. With the recent dark souls using gfwl thats just common sense. gfwl is a pretty poor piece of drm and it would make much more sense to distribute it using steam. It would get to a greater audience, the drm isn't intrusive and all in all everyone wins.DustlessDragoon said:
No gamers are not too entitled.
The whole entitlement thing is just a media spin job in attempt to crush criticism.
If you are a consumer and you dislike something about a product why the hell should you not say something? Does anything ever improve without criticism? If everything someone does is good enough do they have any incentive to try harder?
Please use your brains. I feel like there is a war going on against critical though and critical thought is losing.
The whole entitlement thing is just a media spin job in attempt to crush criticism.
If you are a consumer and you dislike something about a product why the hell should you not say something? Does anything ever improve without criticism? If everything someone does is good enough do they have any incentive to try harder?
Please use your brains. I feel like there is a war going on against critical though and critical thought is losing.
While I agree with you, it shouldn't matter anyway.black_knight1337 said:
People complain about not getting what they want all the time. It annoys me that people are pretending this is about a happy ending or whatever, but it just shouldn't matter at all. Consumers have the right to be mad, and even the right to make demands. Companies have the right to listen or not and act accordingly. This is part of consumerism. It's freaking business.
Android fanboys come pretty close.AnarchistAbe said:
"SIRI IS STUPID LOLOLOL GIMMICK"
*next day on xda*
"WE MADE [generic name], WHICH IS LIKE SIRI FOR THE iPHONE GO ANDROID!!!!"
Android users are some of the most insufferable little self-entitled arrogant dicks. Can't skip a stone on the XDA forums without hitting someone who thinks only stupid people buy iPhones (not that the iOS users are not at fault for any mudslinging either).
Disclaimer: I'm an Android guy, and have been since I stopped using Windows Mobile 5. Own an Evo 3D currently, used to develop ROMs for the Hero, come say hi on XDA if you don't believe me, same username.
Also, gamers still aren't as entitled as music fans.
"What!? This band has changed to making A DIFFERENT KIND OF MUSIC!? WHAT. DON'T THEY KNOW THEY HAVE A DUTY TO MAKE THE EXACT KIND OF MUSIC I WANT ALL THE TIME, THEY'VE BETRAYED THEIR FANS!"
Annoys me so much.
"What!? This band has changed to making A DIFFERENT KIND OF MUSIC!? WHAT. DON'T THEY KNOW THEY HAVE A DUTY TO MAKE THE EXACT KIND OF MUSIC I WANT ALL THE TIME, THEY'VE BETRAYED THEIR FANS!"
Annoys me so much.
NO NO NO if you pay good money for something you have a right to ask for it to be improved, plus %90 of the time gamers are pissed off for good reason, stupid attention seekers (like that critical miss comic, about getting angry) can call us what they want, but if you pay £40/$60 for a game it is your god damn right to ask for it to be improved.
Here's why people complain about it. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6p8qz6wv8M] It's actually locked me out of games that I've bought in the past. Asking that products that I pay money for should work isn't entitlement, it's how it should be.AnarchistAbe said:
GFWL is shit. I can see the decision to use GFWL in this case(video explains it), but I don't think I'll buy the PC version of Dark Souls at full price.
In the case of Mass Effect 3, yes they do as the ending had ALREADY been re-written! Don't forget that the original ending was leaked and EA made them change it so Casey Hudson thinking he could do better than the entire writing team shut himself off in a room and wrote the ending! That's why he has defended the ending so much!DustlessDragoon said:
I feel there is a certain entitlement gamers should have! Such as being able to actually own the games we have spent alot of money on & not just having a liscence to play them!
Considering that companies like EA treat us more like cash machines than fans of their products shows how much respect they have for us anyway!
The thing is, we are no more or less entitled than any other consumer. The main difference is, instead of voting with our money like most products, we go online and riddle the developer with virtual bullets (words) hoping they make repair the broken products. Not many products have the ability to be fixed after the consumer purchases them like video games do with patches, and as such we are given a whole new aspect in the creative process.
Then take work. Bitching about the system you have to use to do your job is pretty commonplace. Bitching about a system you have to use on a discussion forum is pretty commonplace (and not "nerd-centric", which proves nothing, unless you're assuming all gamers are nerds, in which case, I will point you at myself)AnarchistAbe said:
Or how about bitching about bus lanes in the UK? Bitching about how you're being taught at school/college/university/private course. Bitching about what music they play at your local club.
Complaining isn't exclusive to gaming, it doesn't make us anymore "entitled" than the rest of the world, especially as the reason people are calling us entitled is the mass effect scandal (woo, one product annoyed people! All gamers are entitled forever!) and the dark souls pc port (they're using GFWL which despite how it might not have given you problems, its given a large amount of people problems, so much so that its universally distrusted).
Hell, the only reason I think they're using it is so that they don't have to make entirely new netcode.
So OP: No, gamers aren't entitled. We're simply complaining like every other consumer does. The only reason its so loud to you is because you visit the places we ***** on.
What role exactly do you think it is consumers have in a market? To buy anything someone makes and not expect anything for their investment?hermes200 said:
Let me put this as clear as I can: If nobody bought Mass Effect, it would be worth nothing. They would bury it in the desert like Atari's E.T. It has been deemed false advertising (which everyone already knew), so Moviebob was quite a bit off base with his uninformed opinion. When false advertising comes up, usually you are given an amount of time to either provide the product promised or to provide compensation. I guess that makes the people who bought Mass Effect 3 entitled to an ending that is what was advertised by law, or money. (In this case, probably a refund for the product.)
True if you unhappy with a certain meal at a restaurant then you have the right to ask for a different one. However, you don't have the right to demand that particular item on the menu be removed. Just because your unhappy with it doesn't mean everyone else is. Also not being a total d-bag about it helps too... unless their d-bags first then by all means unload on them.Blade_125 said:
The same goes for video games. Sure you have the right to not buy a certain game. You have the right to complain about said game and be vocal about opinions on it. 9The "don't be a d-bag about it" thing applies here too.) However, you don't have the right to demand that the game cease to exist. A lot of people who dislike a game are known for literally demanding that a game be pulled off the shelf simply because they don't like it.
Prime example of this is people who hate Call of Duty games. (I know this doesn't apply to everyone who don't care for Call of Duty.)
Too many, it seems, aren't content with simply not buying and not playing Call of Duty games. No, they won't be happy until Call of Duty is no more. They won't be happy till they stop being made and all copies of the previous games are destroyed. That kind of attitude is what makes someone a self-entitled brat.
Another prime example can be found in World of Warcraft. There are people who felt the normal mode raids were "too hard." They demanded that it all be "nerfed." Other people have proposed an alternate in the form of a third "easy" difficulty. (We have it now, but not before damage had been done.)
Did these people say, "yeah that will work"? Nope. A number flat out stated they just want the current difficulty settings "nerfed," despite many other players being happy with how hard they were. Yeah, in their mind all that matters are what they want and everyone else should be ignored. That is what a self-entitled brat is like.
`
Side Note:
This would actually be a good philosophy for games developers and publishers to take. That way, with the right silver-tongued lawyer, they could argue that piracy is a violation of labor laws. Heh, heh.
Gamers are too self-entitled, and thus they feel that everything needs to be tailored to their specific needs, however...
Most big name publishers see gamers as money farms, and thus they produce games like CoD which are tailored specifically to rake in the hugest profits while appealing to the largest fanbase, alienating any chance of development in the gaming market in general.
But since gamers are too self-entitled, we can't form together and create an effective resistance to this mass-produced crap without some idiots making some like Retake Mass Effect and making us look more like self-righteous pricks than people with some actual common sense.
It's a perpetual cycle of shit.
Most big name publishers see gamers as money farms, and thus they produce games like CoD which are tailored specifically to rake in the hugest profits while appealing to the largest fanbase, alienating any chance of development in the gaming market in general.
But since gamers are too self-entitled, we can't form together and create an effective resistance to this mass-produced crap without some idiots making some like Retake Mass Effect and making us look more like self-righteous pricks than people with some actual common sense.
It's a perpetual cycle of shit.
This.ohnoitsabear said:
I recently purchased 2 games from a developer whose name I will not mention, and they do not function without installing Windows Media Player. I sent a message detailing my discontent of this absurd requirement to the developer, and was essentially ignored.
I then found out that this same developer is producing the third installment of a particular video game series, and although I would much like to play that third game in the series, I will not be purchasing said game due to my experience with their previous 2 releases.
The only point at which a company listens to its consumers is when it stops receiving money from those consumers.
In short, not in the sense you're using. In the dictionary sense, every customer is.
Let's see an analogy used earlier: the cookie thing. A closer one is: If you sell me a chocolate chip cookie and when I bite it it is actually oatmeal raisin, I have a right to be like "What the Hell? Give me chocolate chip!".
Customers are entitled to certain things. If there's a room with a jungle cat, I'm allowed to say I won't go in until it is removed. If there's a room with a jungle cat, and I know there is, but I go in anyway, I can't complain to remove the jungle cat. If the room has a sign that says "No jungle cats in here", and I get attacked when I go in by a jungle cat then I have aright to complain.
I can say that I won't buy ME3 until Origin is no longer required. I can say that they should change their ending, as it was exactly what it was said it wouldn't be: endings A, B, C, and C v1.1
Let's see an analogy used earlier: the cookie thing. A closer one is: If you sell me a chocolate chip cookie and when I bite it it is actually oatmeal raisin, I have a right to be like "What the Hell? Give me chocolate chip!".
Customers are entitled to certain things. If there's a room with a jungle cat, I'm allowed to say I won't go in until it is removed. If there's a room with a jungle cat, and I know there is, but I go in anyway, I can't complain to remove the jungle cat. If the room has a sign that says "No jungle cats in here", and I get attacked when I go in by a jungle cat then I have aright to complain.
I can say that I won't buy ME3 until Origin is no longer required. I can say that they should change their ending, as it was exactly what it was said it wouldn't be: endings A, B, C, and C v1.1
I agree with everything you say here, but I don't think it is what is happening with the ME3 issue. I haven't heard of anyone saying pull the game from the shelves. Making a change to the game is a completely differnt thing.Grunt_Man11 said:
I think it is foolish to even want a game to be pulled. I am not a fan of the COD series, mainly because it is the same game every few months. I would prefer to see inovation in each successive game, but why would the developers bother? I believe the last Modern warefare game was the biggest selling game of all time. In this instance I vote with my wallet. wish others wouls as well, but if the majority like the same game and want to spend $60 then that is their right and the market will react accordingly.