Poll: Are murderers forgivable?

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rutger5000

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PlatonicRapist said:
Some people are arseholes and it is very hard NOT to kill them. It takes real restraint. I had a friend (lets call him Joe) who went to jail for murdering a guy (Lets call him Ray). Ray had a history of being a complete shit; but on this occasion he got a Catholic girl (lets call her Mary, 'cause all Catholic girls are called Mary) pregnant, dumped her, and robbed her house while moving out. Mary is a good Catholic girl so she's keeping the baby. A couple of months later Joe started going out with Mary, aware she was carrying another guy's baby, he was doing the whole "Joseph" thing like a good Catholic boy/sucker. 7 months into the pregnancy, Ray got back in contact with Mary and wants to "make up". Mary explains in very loud and explicit terms that she doesn't trust Ray, and she's with Joe now. Ray does the obvious thing if you're an arsehole who has been rejected, he breaks into Joe and Mary's house when Mary is home and Joe is at work. Ray then beats Mary unconscious with a golf club and makes her miscarry, all the while abusing and terrorizing her and saying that she isn't fit to mother his child. Mary eventually wakes up, half dead, and calls an ambulance, then her mom. Joe gets a call at work,from the Hospital and rushes over. Mary's mom at the hospital tells Joe what happened. Joe sources the location of Ray from mutual acquaintances and sources a shotgun and shells, breaks in and shoots Ray in front of witnesses. Joe got second degree murder in what was considered a lenient verdict, he got 8 years. I think he should have got a medal. I have promised to look after him and give him his job back when he gets out.
No I don't think he should have gotten away with it. I'm not saying what he did was wrong, in fact I think what he did was the right thing. He shouldn't have gone to to cops or something. police have no juristaction here, this is about a man protecting his family. But that does not mean there shouldn't be consequences for what he did. One must also bear the responsibility of his actions, and recognize that one lives in a society that needs rules and laws.
Because what he did what he did in front of withnesses and not be sneeky about it, I think he is great, and have great respect for this man. But a civilization can not allow murder and killing to go unpunished, not even when the victim is such a lowlife.
Joe should go to prison, with his head high rightfully proud of what he did. But he still ought to go to prison for it.
Visite him in prison once in a while.
 

i7omahawki

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Fawxy said:
i7omahawki said:
Fawxy said:
snip
With that proverbial "you" I wasn't necessarily referring to you in particular, but rather the number of pedophile/pedophile enablers on this site who seem to think there is a situation where it is perfectly acceptable for a 9 year old to have sex with a 30 year old. Sorry about the confusion.

As for your thoughts on the matter, I cannot disagree with you more. Think about what you're saying: We should coddle, protect and sympathize with individuals who have committed a horrific crime against not just a human being, but a child no less? That thought process seems almost as sick to me as pedophilia itself. How the hell does it serve the victim and the victim's family well to have their child's rapist (or KILLER? Seriously?) not only get off without punishment, but be treated as a victim themselves? Your viewpoint makes not even the smallest of sense to me, and comes off as extremely offensive.

Bottom line, those who violate the basic human rights of others deserve to have theirs revoked. It does not matter how "sick" they are, it is their responsibility to ensure that they never act upon their desires under the full understanding that if they do, they will be subjected to the full might of justice. Which, for me, can be nothing short of death.
Ah I see, thanks for clearing that up.

And well - I think the reason you disagree with me so much is because you chose to put loads of stuff into my argument that wasn't there and use terms I didn't even hint at.

Of course they should be punished, but punishment should always be a part of rehabilitation. That doesn't mean coddling or protecting, as such, but means making sure they get better and don't do it again. And also helps prevent others from committing the crime too. Less child rapes is what we want, right? Well studying rapists is by far the best way to do that, understanding why it happens, as all human actions have motivations and are always within a context, is by far the best way to make sure those motivations don't grow to that scale and those contexts don't occur as often. Killing them solves absolutely fuck all, the child was still raped, and there's no getting away from that, and we can't learn anything about the rapist because, shit, they're dead. However hard you want to bang the drum of justice, demanding that revenge should be taken out on those that commit horrible crimes, you will do nothing to serve the cause of helping and preventing child rape.

I would also like to air this point, though it is far from conclusive and more speculative. How far do we say "This child is now beyond hope, their life has been taken, and they will never have a good life," when we put someone to death for that crime? Are we saying the child is beyond hope and thus the rapist should die to make up for it? While I cannot imagine anything more terrible than that act, and have little experience with those that have been affected by it, I would never, ever suggest that they were totally beyond repair. I don't think many would like to say that, or believe it, either.

Rapists of course shouldn't be coddled or protected, to say that is my argument, and that it is either that or death, is a fallacious distraction from the argument at hand. We don't want to admit they are human, we want to say they are monsters. But humans can be monsters, and I think whether we like it or not, in some possibilities I think the capability for such 'inhuman' acts lies within all of us.
 

Apocalypse0Child

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I'm gunna have to sit on the fence on this one and say it's all very... circumstantial depending on who, when, why etc.

Like for example, if (going on the example from a film I saw) a man murders your wife, planning revenge (to me) is compeltely justified.

Assassins get paid, so at the end of the day, no matter who they're murdering, to them it's just business. And, it's not necessarily the most forgivable occupation, but at the same time, it is just another occupation, and whoever it is they're killing probably has a reason to have had someone put a hit contract out on them.

And if you're only talking about planned murders then I guess that's me out of ideas. From this I guess overall it kind of is okay to forgive murderers... But that's from an onlooker's perspective after all. If a murderer affects you personally (by killing a friend, family, household pet...) then I think it's completely impossible to forgive them, because it's almost like saying to yourself that you don't care what they've done, what they've taken from you.


(No I didn't mean the pet bit seriously)*
 

martin's a madman

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If they say 'sorry'.

"'I apologise' is exactly the same as 'I'm sorry'...

Unless you're at a funeral." -Demetry Martin
 
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It depends on the type of murder:

- 1st/2nd Degree murder: No
- Manslaughter/Involuntary Manslaughter(Anything in this category): Maybe...?
- Self-Defense: Yes
- Defense of a third party: Yes
- War time: Yes

Since the OP refers to 1st degree murder specifically, then I would say no. I would never forgive someone for 1st degree murder. Ever.
 

Doomsday11

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I haven't read this post but I guess I will be just mirroring everyone elses views that it is entirely dependent on the situation(I.E. I man taking revenge on a guy he knew to have killed his child while not a good person is understandable and as such can most likely be forgiven)The fact it is now first degree murder though means in most cases the perpetrators should not be forgiven.
 

OmniscientOstrich

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As cynical as I am, I think that people are capable of change and redemption. That's why we have correctional facilities, if someone has served their time and they seem to now be a decent person then I'm willing to give them a second chance.
 

JoJo

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Fawxy said:
Of course they should be punished, but punishment should always be a part of rehabilitation. That doesn't mean coddling or protecting, as such, but means making sure they get better and don't do it again.
Look at the high amount of recidivism in convicted child rapists. This is not entirely a matter of revenge, it is removing a horrific and dangerous member from society and ensuring that they NEVER commit such a heinous act again. Death has a 0% rate of recidivism.

And also helps prevent others from committing the crime too. Less child rapes is what we want, right? Well studying rapists is by far the best way to do that, understanding why it happens, as all human actions have motivations and are always within a context, is by far the best way to make sure those motivations don't grow to that scale and those contexts don't occur as often. Killing them solves absolutely fuck all, the child was still raped, and there's no getting away from that, and we can't learn anything about the rapist because, shit, they're dead.
What? Sociologists and Psychologists exist pretty much entirely to study phenomena like this, and have done a pretty damn good job of it. We do know why people do this, and it has not vindicated them in the slightest. What kind of "studying" do you think needs to be done? We already understand that they do this out of sexual deviancy, lust for power, or because they themselves were molested as well as a variety of other causes that vary by society and culture; what else do we need to know? "Killing solves absolutely fuck all!"? Really? Again, it ensures that they NEVER rape another child. How is that "fuck all"?

However hard you want to bang the drum of justice, demanding that revenge should be taken out on those that commit horrible crimes, you will do nothing to serve the cause of helping and preventing child rape.
I've said it multiple times, but I will reiterate: Killing these individuals ensures the safety of potential future victims at the hands of someone who has proven that they have no regard for the human rights of others.

I would also like to air this point, though it is far from conclusive and more speculative. How far do we say "This child is now beyond hope, their life has been taken, and they will never have a good life," when we put someone to death for that crime? Are we saying the child is beyond hope and thus the rapist should die to make up for it? While I cannot imagine anything more terrible than that act, and have little experience with those that have been affected by it, I would never, ever suggest that they were totally beyond repair. I don't think many would like to say that, or believe it, either.
I have had the unfortunate experience of witnessing the effects first-hand, and I can assure you that you are underestimating the trauma caused by such an event. As much promise as an individual child might have had, as much potential as might have been contained in them, they will almost never be able to achieve the quality of life they would have been able to had the event never occurred. I have seen children with so much promise, so much life in them have their entire existences destroyed simply because some sub-human monster viewed them as nothing more than a sex object and acted upon their lust. Of course we don't want to admit it, we want to believe and do the absolute best we can to ensure that the victim at hand has the best quality of life possible, but the fact of the matter is that children who were raped are exponentially more likely to develop mental problems and commit suicide due to the trauma of their abuse. The victim will never again be the person they were before the event, which equates the rape of a child to murder in my opinion. This is different from when an adult is raped, because although the act is still extremely heinous the victim in question has a fully developed personality and has already come to terms with themselves and the world. A child does not have these advantages, increasing the damage done horrifically.

Rapists of course shouldn't be coddled or protected, to say that is my argument, and that it is either that or death, is a fallacious distraction from the argument at hand. We don't want to admit they are human, we want to say they are monsters. But humans can be monsters, and I think whether we like it or not, in some possibilities I think the capability for such 'inhuman' acts lies within all of us.
Death is not the only option, but it is the safest in my opinion. One who has demonstrated that they are willing to brutally violate the human rights of a child should never be released back into society; whether through life in prison (which would allow your "studying" to occur, whatever that might be) or death (which would indefinitely prevent them from committing the same crime again) the safety of the public must be ensured.

Also, of course the capacity for 'inhuman' acts lies within all of us. I could post this message, walk down my street and kill the first person I meet. So could you. But neither of us will, because we have moral and ethical values that ensure we don't. Why should pedophiles be held to a different standard?
I hate to jump into someone-else's argument, but the rates of recidivism among sex offenders is actually not high at-all, that's an urban myth. In-fact the rates for child molesters is usually put as being between 12% and 40%, compared to the 60% average of all criminals.

http://www.csom.org/pubs/recidsexof.html

I can emphasise with your views though, I have a sister who's almost eight and if anyone did anything like that to her I'd want to kill them with my own hands. However I'm opposed to the death penalty for any crime for this reason: what if they're actually innocent? You can't release a dead person if it turns out they didn't do the crime.

Still, child molesters certainly aren't victims, I've studied some psychology and I can confirm that pedophilia (like all paraphilias) is a sexual attraction only and doesn't infringe on a person's ability to make judgements. Despite what a lot of people think, pedophilia is fully possible to control (and many do, they just tend to keep quiet due to stigma) anyone who doesn't only has themselves to blame.
 

JoJo

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Fawxy said:
That is only reasonable argument I see against the death penalty. However, it should really only be used when there is absolutely overwhelming evidence against the suspect at hand (DNA samples, overwhelming witness testimony, etc.).

pedophilia (like all paraphilias) is a sexual attraction only and doesn't infringe on a person's ability to make judgements. Despite what a lot of people think, pedophilia is fully possible to control (and many do, they just tend to keep quiet due to stigma) anyone who doesn't only has themselves to blame.
EXACTLY. And they should be punished severely for doing so.
Cool, then we mostly agree, to be honest I wouldn't morally disagree with executing particularly serious child molesters or child killers, it's just practical reasons that mean I oppose the death penalty. At-least we can agree that permanent imprisonment is a worthy alternative for protecting our children.
 

MorgulMan

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Yes. That's kind of one of the core tenants of my religion: no sin, no wrongdoing cannot be forgiven.

But you have to repent. You have to regret your action and change your attitude and your life. You CAN be a different person, in a sense.

If the question is "Could I forgive a murderer?" (Assuming the victim was close to me, I guess.) My only answer is I hope so. I'm supposed to, though I imagine it would be heart-breakingly difficult, it's best for me.
 

d.revan07

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teisjm said:
If someone murders someone truly evil, i will not only forgive them, i will praise them.
In any otehr case, i'd just prefer to see them executed/locked away for life.

Bin Laden was assasinated, and i have nothign bad to say about the guys doing that.
If someone had killed Joseph Fritzel, Charles Manson, Anders Behring Breivik, or anyone like them, i would consider them heroes.
Very good point, I hadn't thought of it like that till I read your post. It's like the movie 'Wanted' "Kill one, save a thousand" (Still it'd be preferable if the person was captured and questioned so as to have a better strategic position against their group. (That is if they make up part of a larger group).
 

i7omahawki

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Fawxy said:
I find your argument to be absurd. If we understand it fully, then why can't we stop it? Why can't we reduce reoffending rates to zero? Why haven't we designed therapies that detect and treat such conditions before they develop anywhere near to the point where the potential rapist would do anything.

Anyway, I'd prefer to settle on my earlier point that those affected by pedophilia should be treated, I think that if that situation did occur it would be easier to agree with you on the punishment of those who did still offend, despite the regulations and rehabilitation available. I still don't agree they should be killed, I don't believe that a state should wield that power in any other than an immediate threat that cannot otherwise be avoided.
 

i7omahawki

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Fawxy said:
Believe me, as absurd as you might find my argument I'm viewing yours in an even lesser light.

"If we understand it fully, then why can't we stop it? Why can't we reduce such re-offending rates to zero?

Because, in case I haven't mentioned it already, these people are SICK BASTARDS. There is NO rehabilitating them. They don't DESERVE to be rehabilitated. Being a pedophile DOES NOT AFFECT SOMEONE'S JUDGEMENT. There shouldn't be second chances, because these individuals fully understood what they were doing was horrifically wrong, and did it anyways.

"Why haven't we designed therapies that detect and treat such conditions before they develop anywhere near to the point where the potential rapist would do anything?"

What the FUCK? And how exactly would we go about doing that, my friend? By establishing an Orwellian fascist state where we are able to read everyone's mind and convict them of "thought crimes"??? Seriously, how would we go about identifying child rapists before they committed any crimes? By saying "Hey, that guy looked at my kid funny, let's put 'em through rehab!"? Surely therapy should be available for pedophiles who wish to never harm a child, but what you're suggesting is ridiculous.

Yes of course those afflicted with pedophilia should be treated. But it should be BEFORE they have shown that they are violent and morally deficient enough to harm an innocent, and has to be of their own free will; ultimately, they are responsible to ensure they do not harm anyone. If they don't/refuse to carry this responsibility, they are unfit to be a part of society.

Also, some food for thought: How is a child rapist not an immediate threat to society? How is someone who is prone to horrifically violating the human rights of children NOT an immediate danger that should be removed/eliminated?
Ahh, now I believe that we have come to the central belief that drives your argument and is the root of this disagreement. Good old free will. Free will which dictates that each and every human is fully in control of his or herself and is able to make arbitary decisions with no cause and no effect, merely empty choices of 'good' or 'bad'.

I don't for a moment think that free will exists, not that I think the concept of responsibility should be abolished either.

Your counterpoint to my suggestion that we don't in fact have a full understanding of child rape is that these people choose to be, in your terms, sick. As if they stand at a dual gateway between good and evil, knowing that a life of goodness and happiness lies on one side, and a horrific life (for not only others but themselves) one the other, and willingly choose the latter. How crazy does that sound? How does that not demand that something MUST be affecting their judgement? Are we saying that people have the free, complete choice to make this decision would anyone would, for a split second, even consider an horrific life like that?

We don't understand them, and again I'm not saying they should be coddled or protected, but that understanding how and why people make this crazy fucking decision is more important than feeling we have done justice by slaughtering people.

I'll concede that we probably won't get further in this discussion, and I'm happy that at least you agree that those who develop tendancies for pedophilia ought to be treated rather than outright condemned. I'm aware that my other opinion is more controversial, but I do disagree entirely with seeing people who, even if they themselves cannot be redeemed, could assist others in not taking the same path should be executed without much thought. Perhaps life imprisonment would be the middle ground, and maybe a sensible stance. I suppose I may be an idealist in thinking there could be a way to cure those people, and see even terrible crimes not pushing one beyond any redemption.

I don't think humanity is something one can lose, not matter what. Being human is about making choices in an environment where pressures and passions drive you, and are too easily swayed into dark places. As I said, every action takes place in a context, and I cannot concieve of somebody would make such a choice freely between good and evil.