Poll: Are scholarships designated for African-Americans racist?

[Harrowdown]

These scholarships aren't so much about race, I believe, but more to do with the fact that racial minorities in America tend to exist largely under the property line. At least, they do compared to the white majority. I wouldn't call it racist, although the focus for scholarships ought to be on economic status.

 

[UberNoodle]

These scholarships aren't so much about race, I believe, but more to do with the fact that racial minorities in America tend to exist largely under the property line. At least, they do compared to the white majority. I wouldn't call it racist, although the focus for scholarships ought to be on economic status.

Exactly, and this scholarship may have been instigated by an initiative or organisation exclusively focussing on Black issues. Really, it is an example of a mole hill being made into a mountain.

 

[nintenfan231]

Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Yes, but...
As long as the scholarships are privately funded, there is nothing anyone can do about it. People who fund scholarships have as much right to decide who their money goes to as I have a right to decide which video game I buy. However, I do vehemently disagree with publicly funded "minority" scholarships. Why should I, a lower-middle-class white male, be denied the opportunity of applying for a much-needed scholarship when the guy sitting next to me, in the same situation, should not be denied?
I grew up in the lower middle class. Around the time I entered high school, my parents told me that, if I did not get a merit based scholarship, I would not be going to college. My parents made too much money to qualify for need-based scholarships, and we couldn't afford to send me without additional help. Thankfully, I did well enough in school to get a merit scholarship, but that's not the point.

Personally, I think that minority-based scholarships, even need-based scholarships, are a symptom of a much deeper problem. The fact that college is so expensive that it's virtually impossible to attend without some kind of need based scholarship (be it minority based or not) speaks volumes about our society. We have set up a situation where it is acceptable to be mediocre - a situation that encourages the kind of thinking that says "I'll just do the least amount of work to get by, and it will all work out". This line of thinking will make it impossible for society to improve, and future generations will be stuck with the same problems the current one has. There will be no improvement, only perpetuation.

So I propose this solution: do away with need based scholarships entirely. Instead, make college entrance exams and standards for admission so difficult that only the smartest can pass them. This will dramatically reduce the acceptance rate at all universities. However, it will dramatically increase the amount of money available as scholarships per student - hopefully enough that people won't have to pay at all. This will meant that, if you are worthy to attend college, you will be able to, regardless of race, class, sex, religion, or any other factor.

I realize that this solution is not perfect - although the percentage of people who attend college on scholarship will increase, the amount of people who cannot attend college at all will decrease. I ask you, is this a bad thing? Sure, there will be fewer people with a college education, but there will be more people who opt to attend vocational schools or take on apprenticeships. There will be the same number of "skilled" workers, but fewer who have a university degree. This means that having a degree will actually mean something - that the holder of that degree is one of the smartest, best trained people in the world. And people who don't have a degree will not be "left behind" as critics will argue, but, because the majority of the people will not have a degree, they will be just as able to find a job in their specialized field as anyone else.

 

[UberNoodle]

It's beliefs like yours that will never allow racism to die out. If you keep highlighting the lines without abandon, things will never change.

This is where you shot yourself in the foot. At which moment in the last couple of hours did we get to know eachother to such a level that you know what I believe? Clearly I believe in a the eventual creation of a society where all people can enjoy the same level of quality and equality in their lives. Is that not what you believe in too?

Of course for progression the past has to be let go to, but it is naive to think that that is possible right now, today, or even in our lifetime. Various aid is available for all kinds of needs, from single parents, unemployed and poeple with disabilities. There are also forms of aid for people of particular ethic groups. The reason for this is that like it or not, it is often better to divide aid in this way. The problems associated with one group are not the same as anothers. Trying to create one rule for all will only lessen the system's potential to deal with specific issues.

Are there no cons to this? Yes, of course there are. However, like I said, we can't throw the baby out with the bath water. This aid is better than doing nothing. The shedding of the past is certainly not perpetuated because of this aid. That's like saying that the rustling of leaves causes the wind. This aid is a symptom of real inequality in society. Looking at only the race aspect is doing the issue a disservice. Today, racism is unconcious, inadvertant and often not intentional, at least compared to how it was in the past. This makes it worse. It makes poeple think that racial inequality doesn't exist, simply because people don't burn or lynch black people anymore.

It is a fact that race and economic factors correlate. Why is that? Because black people are lazy and just need to get off the handouts and work for a change? No. In the scheme of things, there's not been time enough. Some cultural scars never heal. There are so many factors involved beyond culture and race and they stem from the predjudice imbedded at the roots of our institutions. Society has already been formed and it tries to change, but the result is similar to the Cycle of Poverty. That's why aid is important. For now, until such time as footing economically and socially is more or less even, it will be needed. It won't be there forever, and ultimately must be phased out.

You are right in that the past has to be shed, but it won't happen in our life time. There are still many things that are unresolved.

And you put words in my mouth somewhat about the "labels". I really hope that you were being facecious. The issue has less to do with race and more to do with circumstance. It can't be denied that whites and blacks predominantly exist in disparate social strata. When it comes to whites, the "invisible labels" as you somewhat misconstrued me, are reflected in the higher quality public works, gov't spending, health, order and so forth which far more Whites than Blacks enjoy on a daily basis. It isn't exclusive to Whites, but it is exclusionary by economic class, and that class is dominated by Whites. My point was therefore that regardless of whatever specific minority aid exists, Whites statistically enjoy far a greater slices of the society's wealth

 

[hooblabla6262]

It blows my mind that you could possibly consider these scholarships to be racist. Let me explain it to you this way:

Imagine a big race (the kind with a start and finish). Now imagine that all of your competitors are being weighed down by oppression and genocide.
As the race starts you fly to the lead. Everyone is so very far behind you that you can hardly even consider them a competition anymore.
Then when you finally reach the end, you realize that killing and enslaving and generally shitting on everyone else probably wasn't the nicest way to win a race. But since all the people you were racing are dead, you decide to help out their kids by giving them a leg up here and there (cause let's face it, people are still shitting on them and they've earned a break).

Well, the obvious problem with this analogy is that it neatly hides the problem of blaming children for the sins of the father. Imagine your grandfather borrowed 50,000 dollars from a mafioso and skipped town. Whatever he did with the money, it's long gone now and your grandfather too. Now the grandson of that mafioso comes to you and demands 50,000 dollars, possibly with interest. That's fair, right? I mean, you're responsible for the choices your grandfather made. And if you don't have the 50,000 dollars? Well, I'm sure it won't be a problem with you if the guy breaks your legs. You *did* owe him money, after all.

Though I understand the point you are trying to make, and I realize my analogy might have been a tad shallow, my point still sticks.
It isn't like we gave something up, and are now asking for it back. It's more like we were subject to persecution, and we demand some compensation.
As for the mafioso analogy, it's more like the grandfather stole the mafioso's money, never gave it back, killed him, then died passing it on to his grandson. The grandson, in turn, continues to make a huge profit off of the money that the grandfather stole and decides to give some of that wealth to the suffering grandchildren of the mafioso man.
And to suggest that it is only our ancestors who suffered seems a tad ignorant of the world around you. I'm not saying that I suffer to the same degree, not at all, but when you're a Native American who asks for help from your government from such things as swine flu (because natives are more susceptible) and they send you body bags, that goes to show that we are still shit on to this day.

 

[Acting like a FOOL]

Sensationalism is the death of rational discussion...

indeed...this debate was born dead. race has been ingrained in a large part of human culture.even those few people who truly don't fall to the little mind games of race are never free because they have to deal with people who do...almost everyday.

and when it isn't race, it's religion, then politics, then culture, then class, then interests, then feelings, then thoughts....

there's always conflict.

I know it's good to try and alleviate all of the issues, but I also know that shit won't get fixed with lip service. so this thread accomplishes little more than gathering up a bunch of angry people trying to change other angry people with texts in a thread on a video-game community website.

 

[Acting like a FOOL]

yeah I believe we should try to stop it, but I KNOW we're aren't getting anywhere by chatting it up on a video-game community thread.

 

[Sindaine]

Er, no, they're not. Unless you're trying argue that vile 'White people are the REAL victims of racism!!!' bullshit. In which case not only are you wrong, you're a worthless twat who should summarily eat a bullet made of shit.

There cannot be equality until the stop treating themselves differently. Its not enough that we see them as equal. They have to see themselves as equal. If they feel that a scholarship needs to be available for others like them, they are not treating themselves as equals.

Maybe if society was less racist, they wouldn't have reason to feel that way. But that would expect society to not be ignorant fat lazy fuckheads, which is patently asking too much.

 

[Labcoat Samurai]

Though I understand the point you are trying to make, and I realize my analogy might have been a tad shallow, my point still sticks.
It isn't like we gave something up, and are now asking for it back. It's more like we were subject to persecution, and we demand some compensation.
As for the mafioso analogy, it's more like the grandfather stole the mafioso's money,

An unnecessary change. In the original version, your grandfather was clearly in the wrong. He borrowed money and never paid it back. The mafioso was entitled to collect his money from your grandfather.

never gave it back, killed him, then died passing it on to his grandson. The grandson, in turn, continues to make a huge profit off of the money that the grandfather stole

That's a generalization that the millions of whites in poverty would probably dispute. Do you have some way to measure how much a given white person has benefited from oppression? And if you could measure such a thing, what if the benefit he received exceeds his current means? Should he be obliged to give his last cent paying off a debt he did not, through his own actions, incur?

and decides to give some of that wealth to the suffering grandchildren of the mafioso man.

And if the mafioso man has 2 grandchildren who aren't doing so well and 2 who are independently wealthy due to good business decisions, should some of that wealth be given to the wealthy ones as well?

And to suggest that it is only our ancestors who suffered seems a tad ignorant of the world around you.

That's not the point. My point is that a person who did not have any hand in the suffering should not be made to pay. It doesn't matter if I had no hand because it was a decision made by a distant ancestor or if I had no hand because it was a decision made by some other white guy I've never met and have no connection to other than being white myself. And jesus, it can't get a lot more racist than holding me responsible for what other white people are doing *today*.

I'm not saying that I suffer to the same degree, not at all, but when you're a Native American who asks for help from your government from such things as swine flu (because natives are more susceptible) and they send you body bags, that goes to show that we are still shit on to this day.

In the states, you know what they told people to do if they contracted swine flu? "Stay home", presumably so you don't infect others. There's no vaccine, and the fatality rate is low. If you get a bad enough fever, go to the hospital, but otherwise let it run its course. Not that sending body bags isn't a slap in the face... and not that it was the best form of diplomacy... but it's not like the white man was seeing some sort of first class special treatment when it came to the swine flu.

Incidentally, it's a bit of a different bag when it comes to Native Americans due to the segregation. Government aid to reservations is a perfectly justifiable thing in my book, just as giving money to a state government makes sense. What I tend to find racist is more the notion of reparations for slavery or affirmative action policies that choose a member of a minority over a white applicant for reasons that have nothing to do with merit.

 

[Talshere]

Er, no, they're not. Unless you're trying argue that vile 'White people are the REAL victims of racism!!!' bullshit. In which case not only are you wrong, you're a worthless twat who should summarily eat a bullet made of shit.

There cannot be equality until the stop treating themselves differently. Its not enough that we see them as equal. They have to see themselves as equal. If they feel that a scholarship needs to be available for others like them, they are not treating themselves as equals.

Maybe if society was less racist, they wouldn't have reason to feel that way. But that would expect society to not be ignorant fat lazy fuckheads, which is patently asking too much.

#


While you are correct that often racism can be quite prevalent is some areas, generally speaking those who strive for academic excellence are not among them. If you disagree go do a poll of your local university and you will find a large skew towards very liberal ideals. Those who do vote more right wing, when pressed, reveal that they do some on an economic standpoint, which they can justify logically and have nothing to do with actual racial backgrounds. A good example here for you in the US would be be they are against a national health service.

Of all the places where there needs to be some offsetting due to racial stigma, university is not one of them.

 

[magnuslion]

the scholarship is like a gift card, if you are paying for it, you can offer it to whoever you want for the purchase of a specific thing. start asserting your right to someone else's Christmas dinner, and watch the number of generous donations mysteriously plummet.

Is it racist, maybe, but so is assuming that you have the same right to a scholarship as a kid stuck in a DC shithole, working to get out

I think the main thing at issue here is that if someone were to create the Caucasian American College Fund, It would get jumped all over for being racist, but other ethnic groups can do things like this all they want.

Well of course it's racially discriminatory, I can see what they're trying to do but if they're looking to help those who need help they ought to judge it on income rather than race.

Wrong and Wrong. Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on

Uhm, thank you for repeating my argument for me. THE point being that if I made a United white guy college fund, I would be called racist. but its ok for the blacks to do it.

 

[magnuslion]

I think some of you are missing the point. because you say "yes it is racist, but it is ok because blah blah blah.." It's not ok. either racism is ok, or it is not. Not one white person living in America today has anything to do with black slavery or oppression from the 1700-1800's. If people pay for the sins of their forefathers, should not I as a Jew receive some sort of compensation for the fact that they destroyed every branch of my family save one less than a hundred years ago? The answer is no. most of the people involved in the Nazi party are dead, and the few that escaped a reckoning have to live with their ghosts and demons. Earn what you have, do not have it handed to you because of race.

People can be racist is they want to. It is a free country after all. Businesses, states, etc cannot. A lot of scholarships are privately funded and those people can choose on whatever criteria they want to give away their money. Should they discriminate based on race? no. Should they be able to if they wish? yes. Now, state funded scholarships shouldn't be allowed to give out money based on race. As I have said before, it really doesn't matter in the end. There are a couple hundred scholarships for which each person qualifies.

How many of you guys are actually a minority? Or female? Or gay?

A little less than half.

Crudus,

I am aware that "people" are allowed to be racist in regards to something like this. unless they are white. that is my point.

 

[clipse15]

the scholarship is like a gift card, if you are paying for it, you can offer it to whoever you want for the purchase of a specific thing. start asserting your right to someone else's Christmas dinner, and watch the number of generous donations mysteriously plummet.

Is it racist, maybe, but so is assuming that you have the same right to a scholarship as a kid stuck in a DC shithole, working to get out

I think the main thing at issue here is that if someone were to create the Caucasian American College Fund, It would get jumped all over for being racist, but other ethnic groups can do things like this all they want.

Well of course it's racially discriminatory, I can see what they're trying to do but if they're looking to help those who need help they ought to judge it on income rather than race.

Wrong and Wrong. Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on

Uhm, thank you for repeating my argument for me. THE point being that if I made a United white guy college fund, I would be called racist. but its ok for the blacks to do it.

Um how did i make your point exactly?

 

[magnuslion]

the scholarship is like a gift card, if you are paying for it, you can offer it to whoever you want for the purchase of a specific thing. start asserting your right to someone else's Christmas dinner, and watch the number of generous donations mysteriously plummet.

Is it racist, maybe, but so is assuming that you have the same right to a scholarship as a kid stuck in a DC shithole, working to get out

I think the main thing at issue here is that if someone were to create the Caucasian American College Fund, It would get jumped all over for being racist, but other ethnic groups can do things like this all they want.

Well of course it's racially discriminatory, I can see what they're trying to do but if they're looking to help those who need help they ought to judge it on income rather than race.

Wrong and Wrong. Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on

Uhm, thank you for repeating my argument for me. THE point being that if I made a United white guy college fund, I would be called racist. but its ok for the blacks to do it.

Um how did i make your point exactly?

0.o " Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on"
That is exactly my point. the United Negro college fund is for blacks only. Thus, racist by definition.

 

[clipse15]

the scholarship is like a gift card, if you are paying for it, you can offer it to whoever you want for the purchase of a specific thing. start asserting your right to someone else's Christmas dinner, and watch the number of generous donations mysteriously plummet.

Is it racist, maybe, but so is assuming that you have the same right to a scholarship as a kid stuck in a DC shithole, working to get out

I think the main thing at issue here is that if someone were to create the Caucasian American College Fund, It would get jumped all over for being racist, but other ethnic groups can do things like this all they want.

Well of course it's racially discriminatory, I can see what they're trying to do but if they're looking to help those who need help they ought to judge it on income rather than race.

Wrong and Wrong. Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on

Uhm, thank you for repeating my argument for me. THE point being that if I made a United white guy college fund, I would be called racist. but its ok for the blacks to do it.

Um how did i make your point exactly?

0.o " Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on"
That is exactly my point. the United Negro college fund is for blacks only. Thus, racist by definition.

double post by accident

 

[clipse15]

the scholarship is like a gift card, if you are paying for it, you can offer it to whoever you want for the purchase of a specific thing. start asserting your right to someone else's Christmas dinner, and watch the number of generous donations mysteriously plummet.

Is it racist, maybe, but so is assuming that you have the same right to a scholarship as a kid stuck in a DC shithole, working to get out

I think the main thing at issue here is that if someone were to create the Caucasian American College Fund, It would get jumped all over for being racist, but other ethnic groups can do things like this all they want.

Well of course it's racially discriminatory, I can see what they're trying to do but if they're looking to help those who need help they ought to judge it on income rather than race.

Wrong and Wrong. Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on

Uhm, thank you for repeating my argument for me. THE point being that if I made a United white guy college fund, I would be called racist. but its ok for the blacks to do it.

Um how did i make your point exactly?

0.o " Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on"
That is exactly my point. the United Negro college fund is for blacks only. Thus, racist by definition.

No what you did was misunderstand my post. A white only school would get jumped on if it only allowed the acceptance of white students. Black only schools do not exclude white students from attending. Your correct ONE privately funded scholarship is for black students but you realize that there are scholarships for Germans, Polish, Ukraninian, Chinese, Italian students right? Are those racist or discriminatory?

 

[magnuslion]

the scholarship is like a gift card, if you are paying for it, you can offer it to whoever you want for the purchase of a specific thing. start asserting your right to someone else's Christmas dinner, and watch the number of generous donations mysteriously plummet.

Is it racist, maybe, but so is assuming that you have the same right to a scholarship as a kid stuck in a DC shithole, working to get out

I think the main thing at issue here is that if someone were to create the Caucasian American College Fund, It would get jumped all over for being racist, but other ethnic groups can do things like this all they want.

Well of course it's racially discriminatory, I can see what they're trying to do but if they're looking to help those who need help they ought to judge it on income rather than race.

Wrong and Wrong. Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on

Uhm, thank you for repeating my argument for me. THE point being that if I made a United white guy college fund, I would be called racist. but its ok for the blacks to do it.

Um how did i make your point exactly?

0.o " Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on"
That is exactly my point. the United Negro college fund is for blacks only. Thus, racist by definition.

No what you did was misunderstand my post. A white only school would get jumped on if it only allowed the acceptance of white students. Black only schools do not exclude white students from attending. Your correct ONE privately funded scholarship is for black students but you realize that there are scholarships for Germans, Polish, Ukraninian, Chinese, Italian students right? Are those racist or discriminatory?

Yes, they are.

 

[clipse15]

the scholarship is like a gift card, if you are paying for it, you can offer it to whoever you want for the purchase of a specific thing. start asserting your right to someone else's Christmas dinner, and watch the number of generous donations mysteriously plummet.

Is it racist, maybe, but so is assuming that you have the same right to a scholarship as a kid stuck in a DC shithole, working to get out

I think the main thing at issue here is that if someone were to create the Caucasian American College Fund, It would get jumped all over for being racist, but other ethnic groups can do things like this all they want.

Well of course it's racially discriminatory, I can see what they're trying to do but if they're looking to help those who need help they ought to judge it on income rather than race.

Wrong and Wrong. Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on

Uhm, thank you for repeating my argument for me. THE point being that if I made a United white guy college fund, I would be called racist. but its ok for the blacks to do it.

Um how did i make your point exactly?

0.o " Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on"
That is exactly my point. the United Negro college fund is for blacks only. Thus, racist by definition.

No what you did was misunderstand my post. A white only school would get jumped on if it only allowed the acceptance of white students. Black only schools do not exclude white students from attending. Your correct ONE privately funded scholarship is for black students but you realize that there are scholarships for Germans, Polish, Ukraninian, Chinese, Italian students right? Are those racist or discriminatory?

Yes, they are.

Ok but the majority of those are All white scholarships yet surprisingly they aren't being jumped on like you said.

 

[magnuslion]

the scholarship is like a gift card, if you are paying for it, you can offer it to whoever you want for the purchase of a specific thing. start asserting your right to someone else's Christmas dinner, and watch the number of generous donations mysteriously plummet.

Is it racist, maybe, but so is assuming that you have the same right to a scholarship as a kid stuck in a DC shithole, working to get out

I think the main thing at issue here is that if someone were to create the Caucasian American College Fund, It would get jumped all over for being racist, but other ethnic groups can do things like this all they want.

Well of course it's racially discriminatory, I can see what they're trying to do but if they're looking to help those who need help they ought to judge it on income rather than race.

Wrong and Wrong. Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on

Uhm, thank you for repeating my argument for me. THE point being that if I made a United white guy college fund, I would be called racist. but its ok for the blacks to do it.

Um how did i make your point exactly?

0.o " Now if there was a White only School or institution then these would get jumped on"
That is exactly my point. the United Negro college fund is for blacks only. Thus, racist by definition.

No what you did was misunderstand my post. A white only school would get jumped on if it only allowed the acceptance of white students. Black only schools do not exclude white students from attending. Your correct ONE privately funded scholarship is for black students but you realize that there are scholarships for Germans, Polish, Ukraninian, Chinese, Italian students right? Are those racist or discriminatory?

Yes, they are.

Ok but the majority of those are All white scholarships yet surprisingly they aren't being jumped on like you said.

Bu there is no "White American" Scholarship. most whites in this country are of descents that their are no specific scholarships for.