Poll: Australian man acquitted of rape due to Skinny Jeans

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wightblack

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May 11, 2010
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Just to repeat what earlier people have said...

There's a huge stigma attached to being the defendant in a rape case, and if you need evidence just look at the majority of replies on this thread. The general opinion seems to be that Gonzales is guilty and got away on a stupid defense. Rape itself carries so much (deserved, of course) stigma that as soon as someone's formally accused of it the general feeling is that of guilty until proven innocent.

The issue is that no-one here knows Gonzales, no-one here knows the woman, no-one here was present at the trial and certainly no-one here was at the scene. All *we* have to go on are reports on the trial, all invariably playing up the skinny jeans defense- not because Gonzales was acquitted on the sole defense of "skinny jeans are too tight to remove without consent", but because it makes for good journalism. It's an unusual aspect of this particular case as opposed to all the other acquittals out there over the plaintiff's lack of supporting evidence, or even evidence to support consent. The "skinny jeans defense" is what made it newsworthy, and as such you could assume the journalists implied it to have far greater importance than it actually had. I mean, you have to understand this, people. A good deal of journalism relies on finding the unusual or the sensational and playing it up, because no-one's going to read an article about grass being green.

And it works. There's five pages of replies here, mostly expressions of disgust at the legal system.

Anyway, the point is, maybe Gonzales is guilty, maybe not. I don't know, and I'm pretty damned sure no-one else here does either. But please, if you're going to express an opinion on the ruling, exercise a little skepticism and do some *research* first. Because the thing is, the acquittal doesn't mean anything, does it? Most people seem to assume he's guilty or that the skinny jeans defense is punishable in itself. Which means that if he is guilty, he's getting what's coming to him anyway- oh, except he's not being placed in relative seclusion at the same time. Whereas if he's innocent, good old-fashioned bigotry means he's still getting punished, but for something he didn't do.

Here's a couple of sites, probably already linked. The trick is to read between the lines of journalistic slant to get the actual facts being presented.

http://www.opposingviews.com/p/man-acquitted-of-rape-thanks-to-woman-s-skinny-jeans

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/05/01/2010-05-01_jury_acquits_accused_rapist_rules_womans_skinny_jeans_so_tight_she_must_have_hel.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1270113/Youre-guilty-rape-Those-skinny-jeans-tight-remove-jury-rules.html


Anyway... maybe he got away with rape, maybe he was acquitted of a wrongful accusation; there's only two people who know, and that's the plaintiff and the defendant. Don't jump on the bandwagon of a journalist doing what's necessary to get published. Exercise a little individual thought.


-edit: A source of contention seems to be the tightness of the jeans being considered evidence. And what exactly *is* conclusive evidence in a rape case? It wasn't denied that intercourse took place, but sadly it seems Gonzales neglected to film the event in case the issue of rape arose. So I guess the plaintiff is one up on him, because apparently the accusation of rape is considered evidence of rape?

Consider that maybe, in *this particular case*, *this particular pair of jeans* worn by *this particular woman* may have actually given the jury cause to doubt the accusation.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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slowpoke999 said:
Eponet said:
slowpoke999 said:
I can't even joke about this because of the fact she was wearing SKINNY pants, not fucking loose ones so there goes the 'they were already loose she was asking for it'

It doesn't matter if this was just a thread in a string of evidence, where the fuck would 'her pants were tight' spring up, does the jury know exactly how the guy was trying to rape her and how much force he was exerting.Maybe they are all old fucks, infact, that's probably the whole argument, old people should not be allowed in juries, that be a more rational argument then 7 out of 12 people being retarded enough to think it's impossible to remove or make a girl remove their tight jeans, or maybe they're weak/stupid as fuck"Oh that guy couldn't remove her pants, I'm strong but need mommies help putting my shirt on, and I'm like the strongest guy I know".

EVEN IF she removed the pants herself, it would be so easy to say to a girl to remove her pants or you'll kill her,unless she stated he removed the pants himself
Why are you saying 7 out of 12 people?

From the article, and all the links coming from it, I've only stumbled across one mention that "one of" the jurers sent a note that they didn't think the man could have taken the jeans off.

Even then, it could very well have been a minor, if not completely ignored factor.

The fact that the trial was an aquital as opposed to a single hung jury + retrial suggests that it wasn't the first to reach a similar verdict.
I just said 7 on of twelve because to my knowledge a jury is made up of twelve people and you need at least more then half to make a majority decision, or at least the jury overall agreed based on the majority
If the Australian system is anything like the British system it is based on, a 'majority' decision in a jury must consist of at least 10 of the 12 people agreeing on a verdict.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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wightblack said:
Just to repeat what earlier people have said...

There's a huge stigma attached to being the defendant in a rape case, and if you need evidence just look at the majority of replies on this thread. The general opinion seems to be that Gonzales is guilty and got away on a stupid defense. Rape itself carries so much (deserved, of course) stigma that as soon as someone's formally accused of it the general feeling is that of guilty until proven innocent.

The issue is that no-one here knows Gonzales, no-one here knows the woman, no-one here was present at the trial and certainly no-one here was at the scene. All *we* have to go on are reports on the trial, all invariably playing up the skinny jeans defense- not because Gonzales was acquitted on the sole defense of "skinny jeans are too tight to remove without consent", but because it makes for good journalism. It's an unusual aspect of this particular case as opposed to all the other acquittals out there over the plaintiff's lack of supporting evidence, or even evidence to support consent. The "skinny jeans defense" is what made it newsworthy, and as such you could assume the journalists implied it to have far greater importance than it actually had. I mean, you have to understand this, people. A good deal of journalism relies on finding the unusual or the sensational and playing it up, because no-one's going to read an article about grass being green.

And it works. There's five pages of replies here, mostly expressions of disgust at the legal system

Anyway, the point is, maybe Gonzales is guilty, maybe not. I don't know, and I'm pretty damned sure no-one else here does either. But please, if you're going to express an opinion on the ruling, exercise a little skepticism and do some *research* first. Because the thing is, the acquittal doesn't mean anything, does it? Most people seem to assume he's guilty or that the skinny jeans defense is punishable in itself. Which means that if he is guilty, he's getting what's coming to him anyway- oh, except he's not being placed in relative seclusion at the same time. Whereas if he's innocent, good old-fashioned bigotry means he's still getting punished, but for something he didn't do.

Here's a couple of sites, probably already linked. The trick is to read between the lines of journalistic slant to get the actual facts being presented.

http://www.opposingviews.com/p/man-acquitted-of-rape-thanks-to-woman-s-skinny-jeans

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/05/01/2010-05-01_jury_acquits_accused_rapist_rules_womans_skinny_jeans_so_tight_she_must_have_hel.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1270113/Youre-guilty-rape-Those-skinny-jeans-tight-remove-jury-rules.html


Anyway... maybe he got away with rape, maybe he was acquitted of a wrongful accusation; there's only two people who know, and that's the plaintiff and the defendant. Don't jump on the bandwagon of a journalist doing what's necessary to get published. Exercise a little individual thought.
A very apt and informed first post. Welcome to the escapist, enjoy your stay and for the love of god don't go into the basement. [sub]Never go into the basement...[/sub]
 

Lucifron

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Dec 21, 2009
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Daystar Clarion said:
Mortagog said:
Hahahahahaha. Australia is the ass of the week!
So are the people who read the article without questioning its motive or origin. Way to go.
What? You expect me to read the links posted here rather than taking them completely at face value?

Okay...
 
Dec 14, 2009
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Mortagog said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Mortagog said:
Hahahahahaha. Australia is the ass of the week!
So are the people who read the article without questioning its motive or origin. Way to go.
What? You expect me to read the links posted here rather than taking them completely at face value?

Okay...
Well the OP's article is a blogger's opinion...
so yeah.
 

Lucifron

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Dec 21, 2009
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Daystar Clarion said:
Mortagog said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Mortagog said:
Hahahahahaha. Australia is the ass of the week!
So are the people who read the article without questioning its motive or origin. Way to go.
What? You expect me to read the links posted here rather than taking them completely at face value?

Okay...
Well the OP's article is a blogger's opinion...
so yeah.
Swing and miss Mortagog, swing and miss.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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wightblack said:
Thanks Daystar, I'll be good ;)
Jolly good. Just a quick tip, if you press the quote button in the corner of a person's post, it helps people understand if you're directing a post towards someone, it also send that person a notification as to your post. Just like you should get for this one.
 

ethaninja

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Oct 14, 2009
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Hazy said:
ethaninja said:
Hazy said:
Honestly, I have no idea what the Defense thinks Skinnies are.
Like you said, OP, they're just like normal jeans as far as the waist goes, and practically no harder to get off, either.
Except the men that wear them deserve to their mancard to be revoked.
Say what you want about skinny jeans - those bitches are mad comfortable.
Eh, they made my mate crash his stupid mini-motorbike so yeah, I guess they aren't all bad.
 

AquaAscension

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Sep 29, 2009
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Hate to break it, but there was a similar case to this several years ago and pretty much the same defense was used. It was ludicrous then and is even more so now. My university had a day which urged people to wear denim to show support for the victim of the crime which was sponsored by a local women's shelter program thing called Tessa.

That was a horribly typed response...

Something that I find a little disconcerting, though, is a different statement made by the writer of the article:

Even if I've specifically said to you that I'm ready to go, I'm allowed -- at any point -- to change my mind and say a big fat N-O to you putting your shrimp on my barbie. Even if we're already back at your place, and I'm out of my skinny jeans and your didgeridoo is ready for action.
While I completely agree with this, I think that it can send a dangerous message to those in the population who may be too naive to understand the whole truth.

Camille Paglia, a feminist writer, wrote an article entitled "Rape and the Modern Sex War" back in January of 1991 which was published in a collection of articles entitled Debating Sexual Correctness. In this article, she starts by stating:

Rape is an outrage that cannot be tolerated in civilized society. Yet feminism, which has waged a crusade for rape to be taken more seriously, has put young women in danger by hiding the truth about sex from them.

In dramatizing the pervasiveness of rape, feminists have told young women that before they have sex with a man, they must give consent as explicit as a legal contract's.
The problem is that sexuality, desire, and the like is not that neat and can never really be reduced down to a simple legal contract as Paglia states and as the writer of the article, Virginia Clarkson, seems to posit.

The problem, at the end of the argument is as Paglia writes, "Women will always be in sexual danger." This is not to say that all men are raving animals and can't control themselves, but is more of a commentary on what it means to be a man in the hypersexualized [United States] society in which I live. I agree with Paglia when she writes that "Men must do or risk something to be men. Men become masculine only when other men say they are. Having sex with a woman is one way a boy becomes a man." Men are constantly trying to prove themselves to be men, and sometimes in my society, that seems to mean being abusive and overly-aggressive.

The problem that is raised by the Clarkson's line of thinking and called out by Paglia is that women will not be safe simply by saying "No" to a man. It means that women have to "take personal responsibility for [their] sexuality" by avoiding situations in which she could put herself in danger.

I would love for all men to be able to stop as though the word "No" really was a brick wall, but not all men are trustworthy like that. Not all men care enough all the time. Say NO, say it loudly when you must, but don't be fooled into thinking that a firm NO will stop every man.

On the flip side, men need to take No more seriously and be able to control themselves more. Both sides are responsible for their actions ultimately and, until humanity matures a bit, sexuality will continue to be a chaotic place in which language is usually the last thing that enters into the equation.
 

Brain Sword

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Apr 22, 2010
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Davrel said:
OK - you may find it a little crazy, but what if he was actually telling the truth and he didn't rape her? There are plenty of fucked-up women out there too (not as many as men admittedly, but still).

The law works on the basis of proving something "beyond reasonable doubt", if the prosecution can't do that, then tough.

He was found innocent by a jury of his peers and his life wasn't ruined by a (possibly) wrongful rape conviction. As far as I'm concerned, he's innocent.
This.

I haven't read the article, but it may be that it became clear to the jury that the man was innocent by testimony or by the apparent mental state of the skinny-panted woman. The jeans were probably not the deciding factor at all here, they just provided barely acceptable grounds to close an obviously fraudulent case.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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ethaninja said:
Hazy said:
ethaninja said:
Hazy said:
Honestly, I have no idea what the Defense thinks Skinnies are.
Like you said, OP, they're just like normal jeans as far as the waist goes, and practically no harder to get off, either.
Except the men that wear them deserve to their mancard to be revoked.
Say what you want about skinny jeans - those bitches are mad comfortable.
Eh, they made my mate crash his stupid mini-motorbike so yeah, I guess they aren't all bad.
Tell me about it. I tried a pair of those things once. Let's just say that those types of jeans, while giving me a svelt, feminine lower body, also alerted me to the importance of 'giving my boys plenty of room.'
 
Dec 14, 2009
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Zeeky_Santos said:
Daystar Clarion said:
ethaninja said:
Hazy said:
ethaninja said:
Hazy said:
Honestly, I have no idea what the Defense thinks Skinnies are.
Like you said, OP, they're just like normal jeans as far as the waist goes, and practically no harder to get off, either.
Except the men that wear them deserve to their mancard to be revoked.
Say what you want about skinny jeans - those bitches are mad comfortable.
Eh, they made my mate crash his stupid mini-motorbike so yeah, I guess they aren't all bad.
Tell me about it. I tried a pair of those things once. Let's just say that those types of jeans, while giving me a svelt, feminine lower body, also alerted me to the importance of 'giving my boys plenty of room.'
Aside from removing little johnny's room to breath, they also make you look more effeminate.
I should have stated that those were bad things. Yeah...
>_>
<_<
 

Cabisco

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May 7, 2009
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I assume that their was much more evidence than that, but if that was the only defending statement the jury was likely impressed by the sheer balls of the defendant.
"Look at those jeans, do you think you could be bothered to get them off"
"My god, what balls!"
 

A Pious Cultist

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Jul 4, 2009
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Daystar Clarion said:
oktalist said:
Here we have an Escapist aggregating Lemondrop aggregating Care2 aggregating The Frisky and just why are you reading a girls' magazine anyway?

Mcface said:
The fact that skinny jeans alone are the reason he aquitted is just dumb.
It wasn't the only reason. It was a very small item in a list of reasons. Top of the list being, no compelling evidence of guilt.

"Innocent until proven guilty," I think you must've heard of it.

Mcface said:
So believing he is innocent makes one more mature or intelligent than if one believes he is guilty?
Thankfully, what you or I believe is of no importance whatsoever.

Mcface said:
'The jury agreed. During the trial, they wanted to know more about "how exactly Nick took off her jeans" in order to make their decision.

'"I doubt those kind of jeans can be removed without any sort of collaboration," read a juror's note.'

It seems very likely the main reason he was acquitted was because of the jeans. That is what the whole thread and article are about.
And the source is...*drumroll*... The Daily Mail and the New York Daily News!

Anyone can be selective in which parts of a story they report.

The complainant was found to have lied about other things which happened that night. And again, could offer no substantive evidence in support of her version of events. End of story. And what a paltry story it was, too.
Hey, looky here! Another objective observer not swayed by everything the intarwebz claims to be fact. It gets harder and harder to find people like you. Good job.
Yes. Well done. Have a cookie.