Poll: Bayonetta

[Something Amyss]

Well, do we really want to make our offspring attend yet another arts class in secondary school?

God no. Especially if that would make their homework look like they were playing video games.

Y'know, it's just occurred to me that Shylock is a brilliant example, actually. Like "Sexist" and "Feminist", the "comic villain" and "tragic victim" would be two ostensibly diametrically-opposed characters, both embodied in a single personage!

Could this really be... the single greatest example of giving a debate too much credit?!

The thought had struck me when I saw Shylock, largely because I find that debate actually interesting. There seems to be far less ambiguity in the motives here than those of Shakespeare or Kipling or similar. I mean, I suppose we could go all "death of the author" route, but at that point you can argue any character as degrading or empowering, sexist or feminist, liberal or conservative.

I mean, hell, here's an alternate explanation for Star Wars [http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0075.html] that makes a lot more sense than what Lucas came up with, but it's still not the intent.

 

[maninahat]

Both. She's not the first character to be this divisive either. Lara Croft has had that tenuous position of simultaneously representing feminism and sexism in the bag for decades now. All game characters have their qualities in the context of the game, and then their qualities in the context of wider culture, and they don't always match up.

What I am more interest in is how people will see characters like her in 50 years time. Once upon a time, Al Jolson was praised by black people for being the first to "represent" them in film and music, and now he his image is used as the ultimate icon of racism.

 

[Something Amyss]

What I quoted was: "the best characters are the ones with personalities" - there is nothing objective, at all, about that sentence or idea given "best" is a subjective value judgement anyway, and what counts as a 'personality' would also be massively subjective (likely both in definition and usage).

Yeah, it would be kind of absurd to claim something to be objectively true based on personal preferences.

Remind me, again: what was your argument about spoilers?

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

Well, do we really want to make our offspring attend yet another arts class in secondary school?

God no. Especially if that would make their homework look like they were playing video games.

Now I am wondering what the curriculum for that would look like. Does the "video game appreciation" class include a Mario game? There are courses that focus on single genres of music, is there going to be a "history of the FPS" class?

 

[09philj]

Bayonetta is a sexploitation character, but sexploitation is not necessarily sexist.

 

[Something Amyss]

Now I am wondering what the curriculum for that would look like. Does the "video game appreciation" class include a Mario game? There are courses that focus on single genres of music, is there going to be a "history of the FPS" class?

I imagine critical design analyses of a given genre would actually be quite useful for further education.

Well, assuming people cared about the outcome. Looking at the glut of FPS, maybe nto.

 

[Silence]

There is one thing to find out:

Does the game depict her/other woman as lesser to men?

If no, stop this discussion and go home. Clothes and behaviour aren't sexist.

 

[Amir Kondori]

It seems to me that among the people afraid of a woman using her sexuality are tumblr feminists.

 

[Silvanus]

That's because I don't agree with the options the OP has. My answer is: there are more interesting things to analyze in her than the degree of sexism/feminism; and none of them are in the poll.

Righto. You know, there are polls on topics I find terrifically uninteresting-- favourite upholstery brands, for instance, or best methods of stain removal-- and I tend to drop into them to let everyone know I just how uninteresting I find them, and that those people should be making polls about other stuff.

Alternatively, perhaps different people find different topics interesting.

There seems to be far less ambiguity in the motives here than those of Shakespeare or Kipling or similar.

Now who's downplaying games-as-art?!

 

[NPC009]

I'll pick 'I prefer not to see her as a symbol, but as a fun character in a game that's as over-the-top as she is'. Sexuality isn't a bad thing as long as the character is in actual control of it. That's why watching Bayonetta do her thing is fun and creeping on shy anime maidens is, well, creepy. And sure, I got kinda bored of the crotch shots, but the games' heart is in the right place.

Besides, it would be difficult to label her a problem. Though there is still plenty of room for improvement, the 'female protagonists in videogames club' is growing and becoming more diverse every day. Bayonetta is not representing an entire genre in videogaming like Lara Croft used to in the 90s. Bayonetta is just Bayonetta. That's fine. There is and should be room for characters like her.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

On a side-note, I also wonder whether those saying they "play games, don't analyse them" would give a similar response in English class, or film studies. The teacher asks you whether you consider Shylock to be a comic villain or a tragic victim; would you answer, "Hah! I read books, don't analyse them"?

Honestly I really felt this way at school. I understood how connotations were drawn from Shakespeare, but a some of the observations that my English literature teacher made took some innocuous details and made them significant. She was more than keen to point out that red curtains represent the protagonists inner rage, but when I said Romeo and Juliet was actually a comedy, noooo that was too far!

It seems to me that among the people afraid of a woman using her sexuality are tumblr feminists.

There are a particular set of "femenists" who are more than happy for women to dress and look however they want as long as they aren't models, strippers or pornstars. It just so happens that Tumblr houses a lot of these women, giving actual femenism a bad name. What a twist.

 

[Silvanus]

Honestly I really felt this way at school. I understood how connotations were drawn from Shakespeare, but a some of the observations that my English literature teacher made took some innocuous details and made them significant. She was more than keen to point out that red curtains represent the protagonists inner rage, but when I said Romeo and Juliet was actually a comedy, noooo that was too far!

That's more of an academic disagreement, not really an indication that the very principle of critical analysis is not appropriate.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

Honestly I really felt this way at school. I understood how connotations were drawn from Shakespeare, but a some of the observations that my English literature teacher made took some innocuous details and made them significant. She was more than keen to point out that red curtains represent the protagonists inner rage, but when I said Romeo and Juliet was actually a comedy, noooo that was too far!

That's more of an academic disagreement, not really an indication that the very principle of critical analysis is not appropriate.

Well it was in good humour. But I uphold that whilst not always appropriate, there's such a thing as over analysing and games suffer from it most due to their general lack of narrative substance. I can read a book and draw my own interpretation of words and actions, because the passive narrative makes that possible. Videogames require more active involvement which often conflicts with the narrativ, and we ended up with ludonarrative dissonance.

But in response to your initial question: " I also wonder whether those saying they "play games, don't analyse them" would give a similar response in English class, or film studies".

It depends on the film/book/play/poem/haiku. Somethings just aren't meant to be analysed whilst others are complex enough to open limitless doorways that lead to halls of fan theory and headcanon. The Star Wars example from above, for example.

 

[BarryMcCociner]

Bayonetta is neither feminist or sexist. Get this, the cold hard truth about Bayonetta is...

... a Platinum Games character.

Platinum fucking prides themselves on putting the spectacle in spectacle fighter. Christ almighty, look at a game like Metal Gear Rising. What does Platinum have you do in this game? Fight a United States senator who hulks the fuck out and starts throwing bits of giant walking insect nuclear-armed battle tank at you while a heavy metal ballad complete with lyrics just fucking wails in the background.

I don't think labels like 'sexist' or 'feminist' can really be applied to Bayonetta, I think doing that is kind of missing the point. Bayonetta is meant to look cool, do crazy shit in cutscenes, pull wicked combos and make some lame/decent puns here and there. Like all Platinum Spectacle Fighter characters, yes her aesthetic is highly sexualized. So? That's just part of her ostentatious, silly character. It's like complaining about Stan Smith's rabid conservatism. Yeah, you might disagree with this silly, suit wearing, CIA employed, bible thumping, flag waver- but without those aspects the character just doesn't work.

What I'm trying to get around to is, don't try to put a character through categories they were never designed to fit, all it'll do is leave you with distinctions that have no real relevance to the art. It's dangerously close to an exercise in futility.

 

[CaitSeith]

That's because I don't agree with the options the OP has. My answer is: there are more interesting things to analyze in her than the degree of sexism/feminism; and none of them are in the poll.

Righto. You know, there are polls on topics I find terrifically uninteresting-- favourite upholstery brands, for instance, or best methods of stain removal-- and I tend to drop into them to let everyone know I just how uninteresting I find them, and that those people should be making polls about other stuff.

Alternatively, perhaps different people find different topics interesting.

If people comment about when options are missing from my polls, why shouldn't I?

 

[Silvanus]

If people comment about when options are missing from my polls, why shouldn't I?

By all means, do! But I'd probably limit it to the topic that the original poster actually wanted to discuss, rather than just declaring that that doesn't interest you.

 

[Souplex]

That's because I don't agree with the options the OP has. My answer is: there are more interesting things to analyze in her than the degree of sexism/feminism; and none of them are in the poll.

Righto. You know, there are polls on topics I find terrifically uninteresting-- favourite upholstery brands, for instance, or best methods of stain removal-- and I tend to drop into them to let everyone know I just how uninteresting I find them, and that those people should be making polls about other stuff.

Alternatively, perhaps different people find different topics interesting.

If people comment about when options are missing from my polls, why shouldn't I?

If that topic interests you, make your own poll/thread, I would welcome the added discussion. Toss a link to it in your reply. That isn't the discussion we're having here though.

 

[Erttheking]

If by sexist you mean, is fun with an actual personality, then yes,

Really? That's your criticism of people who have problems with sexism? That they don't want fun characters with actual personalities? Bit of a strawman there mate.

OT: Ugh. I honestly would've been happy to have this conversation a long time ago but now the conversation couldn't be more loaded. I'll just say she's feminist and call it a day before I get angry replies.

 

[CaitSeith]

If people comment about when options are missing from my polls, why shouldn't I?

If that topic interests you, make your own poll/thread, I would welcome the added discussion. Toss a link to it in your reply. That isn't the discussion we're having here though.

By all means, do! But I'd probably limit it to the topic that the original poster actually wanted to discuss, rather than just declaring that that doesn't interest you.

I probably own you both an apology. I just realized that the fifth option in the poll fits pretty much my point of view. Why no one noticed it before? Anyways, sorry for making you lose time.