Poll: Bayonetta

[Paragon Fury]

1: Its "feminist".

2: Modern day feminism? Absolutely not. Modern day feminism is EXTREMELY sex-negative and almost violently anti-men - something Bayonetta definitely isn't (and either count). Bayonetta represents the old-kind of feminism; the kind your mom and grandmother would've recognized. Bayonetta would almost be the anathema to modern day feminism.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

To quote a great philosopher of our time-

"What was that? Sorry, I was playing XCOM."

Ahem. But no, yeah, playing is generally less soul-crushing than agonizing over the more banal aspects.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

1: Its "feminist".

2: Modern day feminism? Absolutely not. Modern day feminism is EXTREMELY sex-negative and almost violently anti-men - something Bayonetta definitely isn't (and either count). Bayonetta represents the old-kind of feminism; the kind your mom and grandmother would've recognized. Bayonetta would almost be the anathema to modern day feminism.

The fact that there are many, many modern feminists who argue that bayonetta is a great character kind of invalidates your second point. That is why this came up in the first place - there is a lot of contention among modern feminists on Bayonetta.

 

[Paragon Fury]

1: Its "feminist".

2: Modern day feminism? Absolutely not. Modern day feminism is EXTREMELY sex-negative and almost violently anti-men - something Bayonetta definitely isn't (and either count). Bayonetta represents the old-kind of feminism; the kind your mom and grandmother would've recognized. Bayonetta would almost be the anathema to modern day feminism.

The fact that there are many, many modern feminists who argue that bayonetta is a great character kind of invalidates your second point. That is why this came up in the first place - there is a lot of contention among modern feminists on Bayonetta.

The problem is that very few, if any of those who would support Bayonetta and the older kind of feminism she represents have any kind of serious traction or influence, and they're not the ones influencing youth nearly as much as the new feminists.

 

[Erttheking]

But you confuse cause and effect, the reason why sexism is such a maligned term by now is because people keep using it unnecessarily and devalue it, rather then people never liking it in the first place. And it's less "hate fun characters" and more being sick of trying to shoehorn characters into feminist/non-feminist corners and also general typical mary-sue characters.

Hardly. People were getting pissy about it from day 1. I love video games but god damn it so many gamers can just not take their hobby being criticized. Ok. 1. characters are not filed into sexist and not sexist and 2. are you really talking about Mary Sues in the same thread you praised Bayoneta in? The person that punted god across the solar system? That's pretty darn sueish if you ask me.

The problem is that very few, if any of those who would support Bayonetta

I'm assuming you got something to back that up. Because I can't help but notice that so many people who criticize feminsm don't really do much research into feminists outside of the ones that are the loudest and as a result are in the spotlight of sensationalist media.

 

[Fox12]

1: Its "feminist".

2: Modern day feminism? Absolutely not. Modern day feminism is EXTREMELY sex-negative and almost violently anti-men - something Bayonetta definitely isn't (and either count). Bayonetta represents the old-kind of feminism; the kind your mom and grandmother would've recognized. Bayonetta would almost be the anathema to modern day feminism.

This is true. My mom and grandmother routinely dress in tight, restrictive leather and rub themselves against street lamps while moaning. They understand that feminism means mindlessly pandering to crowds of sex starved men. I found this embarrassing when I was four years old, so that means I'm sex-negative and hate women.

Spoiler

Bayonetta, apparently.

Again, I don't think bayonetta is necessarily sexist. But anyone who thinks she's a feminist symbol is kidding themselves. That jump requires more cognitive dissonance then Fox News.

 

[MrFalconfly]

This is true. My mom and grandmother routinely dress in tight, restrictive leather and rub themselves against street lamps while moaning. They understand that feminism means mindlessly pandering to crowds of sex starved men. I found this embarrassing when I was four years old, so that means I'm sex-negative and hate women.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Bayonetta originally made by a female artist who "basically" wanted a female version of Dante from Devil May Cry?!?

 

[Fox12]

This is true. My mom and grandmother routinely dress in tight, restrictive leather and rub themselves against street lamps while moaning. They understand that feminism means mindlessly pandering to crowds of sex starved men. I found this embarrassing when I was four years old, so that means I'm sex-negative and hate women.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Bayonetta originally made by a female artist who "basically" wanted a female version of Dante from Devil May Cry?!?

Uh, does it matter?

I said her design panders to a male audience, which it does. I said she's not a feminist character, which she's not. The gender of her designer is irrelevant. Especially since her character was probably well defined by the writers and directors long before an illustrator designed her appearance.

 

[MrFalconfly]

This is true. My mom and grandmother routinely dress in tight, restrictive leather and rub themselves against street lamps while moaning. They understand that feminism means mindlessly pandering to crowds of sex starved men. I found this embarrassing when I was four years old, so that means I'm sex-negative and hate women.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Bayonetta originally made by a female artist who "basically" wanted a female version of Dante from Devil May Cry?!?

Uh, does it matter?

I said her design panders to a male audience, which it does. I said she's not a feminist character, which she's not. The gender of her designer is irrelevant. Especially since her character was probably well defined by the writers and directors long before an illustrator designed her appearance.

But does she really pander?

Or does she just stuff the idea that female characters can't behave like her for fear of being labelled as "pandering"?

But yeah, just because you're ironically fetishized, doesn't mean some people isn't wanking off to "you" I guess.

 

[Fox12]

But does she really pander?

Or does she just stuff the idea that female characters can't behave like her for fear of being labelled as "pandering"?

But yeah, just because you're ironically fetishized, doesn't mean some people isn't wanking off to "you" I guess.

At that point is there a difference? I didn't get the impression that Bayonetta was ironic or deconstructive at all. There's no real meta commentary about the audience, or about the state of gaming from what I've seen. Some games, like No More Heroes, walk a very fine line there, but I don't get that impression from Bayonetta at all.

Spoiler

Just because something is over the top doesn't mean it's lampooning its genre. Sometimes it just means that there's an excess of pandering.

 

[MrFalconfly]

But does she really pander?

Or does she just stuff the idea that female characters can't behave like her for fear of being labelled as "pandering"?

But yeah, just because you're ironically fetishized, doesn't mean some people isn't wanking off to "you" I guess.

At that point is there a difference? I didn't get the impression that Bayonetta was ironic or deconstructive at all. There's no real meta commentary about the audience, or about the state of gaming from what I've seen. Some games, like No More Heroes, walk a very fine line there, but I don't get that impression from Bayonetta at all.

Spoiler

Just because something is over the top doesn't mean it's lampooning its genre. Sometimes it just means that there's an excess of pandering.

I'm guessing that I get that "deconstructive" vibe, simply because Bayonetta isn't like the typical pandering character (like every female DoA character). She's always in control, unlike some truly pandering characters who seem to have a massive disconnect between who they are and what they dress like (two things that usually fit well together)

It may be a false-negative on my part, but that's just how I see it.

 

[Guffe]

I played the games, and I enjoyed the living shit out them!
Yes the camera does twirl and whirl around her perfect long legs and her ass. She winks flitringly at everyother character she comes accross. But she's also a damn strong character and not as shallow as it first might seem.
But yeah, I usually stay away from discussion like this, I played the games and enjoyed them, that's enough for me.

 

[Chris Moses]

I chose "sexist" but I don't think people shouldn't play or enjoy the game.