Poll: Best Book series of all time

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spartan231490

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s0denone said:
spartan231490 said:
It's not a joke, and it's not objective. That's why I wanted to discuss/debate on why/why not. Why are you so surprised I think it's the best series of all time, there has to be one somewhere, why not SoT?

Why would you write up an actual reply, you know - coherent text and all, if all you're going to do is call me "some inane twelve-year-old?

Why isn't it the best of all time? I asked for detailed responses, not one liners. If you don't want to give a full run-down, why not a top-five reasons that it isn't? Real reasons, with substance.
You're asking for "substance" when your topic revolves entirely around personal preference. Do you see the problem?

If not, here is the problem:

I don't think "ToS" is the best book series of all time.
No burden of proof lies with me.
I don't need to name any reason, as they would be subjective anyway, and only to support my already very subjective opinion.

You, likewise, have no other substance in your argument other than:
I think "ToS" is the best book series of all time.

You aren't making some sort of scientific claim that others have to dispute. You are simply telling us that you like some book series. That's good, you found some books you think are awesome. Congratulations.

What more to it is there, than that?

Don't ask of me "Name reasons it isn't the best book series". Instead look inward. All of your reasons why you personally think it is the best, are as subjective as the reasons you are asking me to list as to why it isn't.

Do you see the idiocy at play here?

And just for reference, I didn't call you an inane twelve-year-old. I said that I thought the question you posed, might as well have come from one who was inane, and, incidentally, twelve years of age.
Never said they weren't subjective. Have you honestly been so deprived as to have never been in a discussion about a subjective topic? Just because it's opinion doesn't mean you don't have reasons, and just because it's opinion definitely doesn't mean you can't have a discussion, or even a debate around it. I have reason's why I think this series is so amazing, I wanted to hear reasons why others were unimpressed. What about this is so hard to understand?

Just because your reasons are subjective, doesn't mean they don't have value to other people. I want to hear your reasoning for being unimpressed with the book, fully aware that those reasons are subjective. Most things are subjective, if any topic is truly objective, than it can only have one answer, and there is no reason to discuss/debate/argue. Debate the existence of gravity. Debate Ohms law.

Do you see the idiocy at play here?
 

spartan231490

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Lukeje said:
I can only think that this is some kind of troll attempt. What other book series have you actually read for comparison against The Sword of Truth?

...I've only read the first one, but as to reasons why I didn't like it:
  • The descriptions were long-winded and often contradictory.
    Deus Ex Machina after Deus Ex Machina.
    Trope ridden story with obvious twists (and with no sense of satire about said tropes).

One of the most consistent series of which I've read has to be Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels; well written and satirical.
Can you remember one of the descriptions that were contradictory?
Never been familiar with Deus Ex Machina, are you saying the story was the same?
The first one was very obvious yes, but that is not true, at least in my mind, for the rest of the series. If you care, you can probably find a short summary on wiki of the later books.
 

spartan231490

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Mr Thin said:
Well I liked that series a lot, though it's not my favourite.

I think the best author of all time might be Stephen King, not just for the outstanding quality of his writing, but for the sheer volume of literature he's given to the world over the years.

As for best series... I'm more reluctant to comment, but my favourite series is probably 'The Wheel of Time' series by Robert Jordan.

So good... and so long! Awesome.
I've read WoT. It's my second favorite series. I prefer the ideology of free will from SoT, I really dislike the pre-destination and prophecy that is so heavy in WoT, and Jordan is a little bit too long winded, but still one of my most anticipated series.
 

spartan231490

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cgaWolf said:
I voted "worst thing i ever read" - although to be quite honest, that was because you didn't give me the option of "most disappointing". The worst thing i ever read has to be the book "Spellfire".

Here's my argument:

The book starts of with the usual cliché setup (bad evil guy "over there" becoming an actual threat, young male guy set up to become hero via coming of age story) to reel its audience in, and it does so in very competent way. That's actually a good way to start a story, as it handles your audience familiar elements, and they feel right at home without having to read The Compiled History of Fantasyworld #4316 - Song of Ice and Fire also does this in a similar way.

It's often said that the first sentence of a novel is the most important one, and while i'd argue that's not strictly true, the sentiment that the setup needs to reel the reader in is still valid. WFR does this well, and then it deviates.

And it deviates in a good way - it shatters the usual frame of reference we often have, and takes us into a world where the female heroine isn't just a sidekick, but a power of her own, where the hero is the hero not because he was born to be (regardless of the fact that he actually was ^_^), but because he stumbled into it & sees it through; it didn't set us into a standard LOTR copypasta world, nor did it attempt to explain magic in a formulaic way.

In some parts, it also was a lot more adult then other comparable stories; the twist at the end that everyone had to see from miles away was competently implemented, and the style of writing is adequate & easy to read without making you cringe.

So, if i had been asked whether the series is worth reading, i would say "read the first 3 books". There's a lot worse out there.


Throughout the first 2-3 books, Richard is set up as a hero because he genuninly wants to do the right thing, is motivated by love, and has the tenacity to hold on against really bad odds. And then for some reason - i can only presume a major tragedy or trauma in the life of the author - it all goes wrong.

Between writing #3 and #4, the author apparently was apparently hit over the head with a copy of Atlas Shrugged (the aforementioned trauma), and desperately tries to convince his readers Randian dogma is The Right Thing (tm) - and the books not only suffer from that, it completely annihilates the worth of the series as a whole.

Whereas before the threats where real (at least as far as the fanatsy world is concerned), in latter books the author goes out of his way to setup weak strawmen as nemesi, but it's so transparent that - barring all else - the story simply sucks.

Richard shifts away from trying to be good, and hides behind a dogma of "everyone is responsible for himself and his own actions only, and any other viewpoint is morally evil and needs to be destroyed"; while Kahlan - who was formerly one of the few valid female characters in a fanatasy novel - becomes a blind enarmoured sidekick, and stops being interesting or a valuable addition to the story.

The weakness in the latter stories is accompanied in a drop of literary quality / writing style, a massive drop in the quality of how the stories are build and how moral issues are argued. Strawmen, red herrings & deus ex run rampant; the characters flatten out into stale cardboards propped up to carry Goodkinds newfound "wisdom" out into the world, and he is so preoccupied with waggling his moral finger, that he fails to come up with a good story to tell in first place.

In short: the latter books read like someone decided to write a Lord of the Rings + Atlas Shrugged crossover fanfiction - and i'm pretty sure that if i head into the deepest recesses of the internet & comission a fanfiction there (let's say finding a piece of Twilight fanfiction secretly written by a /b/ guy), it would be less painful to read.



tl;dr:
The first 3 books are ok to read, after that for the love of god spare yourself & do something more enjoyable, like stabbing a rusty fork into your eye. The series as a whole is nowhere near "best ever", and (outside the first 3 books) is on my top-10 do not read list. It's really disappointing though, because it started of so well :/

PS: Wheel of Time has it's own bag of issues, so this isn't a WoT vs. SoT rant. In fact, the first 3 SoT are better reads than WoT, although you'll only discover that around halfway through the 4th book of WoT when you realize Jordan was a good worldbuilder, but terrible narrator; and that WoT only redeems itself when you read it the second time around because as a reader you can then skip all the fluff that whould have been cut out had the editor done his job.







Fantasy novels - Serious Business :p

If you like reading fanatasy, there's tons of decent material out there that beat both WoT & SoT as far as i'm concerned.

For light reads:
- Raymon E. Feist (start of with Magician: Apprentice)
- Tad Williams (start of with The Dragonbone Chair)
- Weis & Hickman (Death Gate cycle, start with Dragon Wing)
- David Eddings (start with Pawn of Prophecy)
- Terry Pratchett (start with Colour of Magic)

For more adult reads:
- George R.R. Martin (start with A Game of Thrones - warning: series not finished)
- Robin Hobb (start with Assassin's Apprentice)
- Jacqueline Carey (start with Kushiel's Dart)
Interesting thoughts. So to clarify, you find the moral philosophy of the books to be flawed to the point that it made Richard less of a hero, more of quasi villain? and you also believe that Goodkind spent so much time on this moral aspect that the story and characterization failed entirely?

If this is true(oversimplified I know, but basically accurate?) Then I can definitely see the first part, if you thought that Richard's reasoning was wrong, then it would be hard to see him as a hero. However, this isn't a complaint I can share with you, I agree with Richard's philosophy. As for the second part, I don't see it. I thought the story was amazingly well done(books 7 and 8 were the worst, and I'd still call them good, and the last three tied it all together so well it's shocking) and I thought the characters continued to grow. Any chance you remember a few times when the characters seemed two-dimensional? And which villain/s did you think were straw men? Jagang?

Anyway, thanks for the well thought out post, it was an interesting read.
 

Queen Michael

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Discworld, definitely. The humor is great, but there are also characters you really start caring about.
 

Marowit

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My favorite series have been Philip Pullman's Dark Materials series.

I also am partial to Ben Bova's near-future series (Jupiter, Saturn, Titan, The Asteroid Wars, etc...) - They're more of a pseudo-series as they all take place in the same universe, and events are sometimes mentioned in separate books, but characters rarely interact across books.
 

Zannah

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Wabblefish said:
EDIT: This post was kind of made so I can see someone reply to me and say why they think Harry Potter isn't that great of a book series
You know, while ramping up the rage meter, reading what you wrote, it occured to me - few things about the Harry potter novels are that bad - there's just nothing in there, that would by any means justify the massive success the books had - the world, the plot, the character archetypes, it's all been done before and better. Just thousands of pages of mediocricy, hyped up to eleven.
I'd say Harry Potter is the Bf:Bad Company 2 of Literature - not bad enough to call it horrible, not ripping of blatantly enough to be called out on, just existing, and nowhere near justifying the praise it gets. (Though admittedly, up until the fourth book, I actually enjoyed the series).

spartan231490 said:
Never been familiar with Deus Ex Machina, are you saying the story was the same?
A deus ex machina is a plot device that comes out of nowhere, and saves the day (Like say, two wands locking each other in some unique reaction, without the phenomenon ever being mentioned before, saving the protagonists life).
 

dystopiaINC

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blalien said:
I'm very surprised nobody mentioned The Dark Tower before now.
^ oh you beat me to it! ^.^

i was also going to suggest somebody read...

The Dresden Files,
The Codex Alera
or the Pendragon series.... yeah all three of these are my favorits in that order, and really i think they just might be the best ^_^
 

Wudustan

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Bernard Cornwell's Warlord & Arthur series (wiki it or something) both awesome, near-historical fiction series about Saxon/Dane and Celt/Saxon conflicts of Britain. Both feature a kickass main character and both are filled to the brimm with warring. Not ashamed to say the last Arthur book make me cry like a *****.

Sergei Lukyanyenko's Watch series. I read them in russian, so can't attest to the English translation being any good. But a seriously non-gay portrayal of magic and one of the most complicated and subtle power-struggles is your reward for sticking with the 4 books.

A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R Martin. Yes it's being made into a TV series so EVERYONE has heard of it. But I read it before it was cool ...so there... It is worth every bit of praise it gets. And I quite enjoy the Borgia family analogy that some critic has posed. It's again an extremely complex power-struggle but the sheer vastness of the, so far, 5 books encompasses an entire country the size of England plus bits about the other Kingdoms. There's magic, but again it's not gay. Yes there's dragons, but again...not gay. There's also incest, teenage pregnancy, lesbians, backstabbing and a lot of excellent fighting scenes.

That's my top 3 in no particular order because even when it's just me, I took something different away from each series. Nevermind trying to compare the preferences of an extremely diverse group of people from all sorts of backgrounds.

This thread is dumb, but I'm gonna go ahead and nick of of the recomendations....
 

spartan231490

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Zannah said:
Wabblefish said:
EDIT: This post was kind of made so I can see someone reply to me and say why they think Harry Potter isn't that great of a book series
You know, while ramping up the rage meter, reading what you wrote, it occured to me - few things about the Harry potter novels are that bad - there's just nothing in there, that would by any means justify the massive success the books had - the world, the plot, the character archetypes, it's all been done before and better. Just thousands of pages of mediocricy, hyped up to eleven.
I'd say Harry Potter is the Bf:Bad Company 2 of Literature - not bad enough to call it horrible, not ripping of blatantly enough to be called out on, just existing, and nowhere near justifying the praise it gets. (Though admittedly, up until the fourth book, I actually enjoyed the series).

spartan231490 said:
Never been familiar with Deus Ex Machina, are you saying the story was the same?
A deus ex machina is a plot device that comes out of nowhere, and saves the day (Like say, two wands locking each other in some unique reaction, without the phenomenon ever being mentioned before, saving the protagonists life).
I don't personally have a problem with that, to me it makes the books more realistic. After all, no one fully understands the world, there are things that are going to happen that the main character wasn't aware of, that the reader wasn't aware of. Out of curiosity, what parts of SoT did you think were deus ex machina? It's too long for me to remember everything that happened, but I don't remember anything that truly came out of nowhere. Maybe the final twist of the series, but honestly, when it happened, I was surprised that I didn't see it coming.
 

Zannah

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spartan231490 said:
I suppose you could call many of the things in SoT deus ex machina then. I don't personally have a problem with that, to me it makes the books more realistic
Explain to me, how an author writing himself in a corner, and pulling a magical solution out of his backside furthers realism?
 

spartan231490

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Zannah said:
spartan231490 said:
I suppose you could call many of the things in SoT deus ex machina then. I don't personally have a problem with that, to me it makes the books more realistic
Explain to me, how an author writing himself in a corner, and pulling a magical solution out of his backside furthers realism?
I did, I posted that accidentally before I was done with it. I've edited it since. Also, it only furthers realism if the explanation makes sense. The fact that the reader wasn't aware of the possibility is not in and of itself a condemnation, any single person isn't going to fully understand the real world, if a fantasy world is well built, then the same should be true there.
 

Zannah

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spartan231490 said:
Zannah said:
spartan231490 said:
I suppose you could call many of the things in SoT deus ex machina then. I don't personally have a problem with that, to me it makes the books more realistic
Explain to me, how an author writing himself in a corner, and pulling a magical solution out of his backside furthers realism?
I did, I posted that accidentally before I was done with it. I've edited it since. Also, it only furthers realism if the explanation makes sense. The fact that the reader wasn't aware of the possibility is not in and of itself a condemnation, any single person isn't going to fully understand the real world, if a fantasy world is well built, then the same should be true there.
I can sort of see where you're coming from, but even as it might further realism, it's still bad writing for a plethora of reasons.
 

spartan231490

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Zannah said:
spartan231490 said:
Zannah said:
spartan231490 said:
I suppose you could call many of the things in SoT deus ex machina then. I don't personally have a problem with that, to me it makes the books more realistic
Explain to me, how an author writing himself in a corner, and pulling a magical solution out of his backside furthers realism?
I did, I posted that accidentally before I was done with it. I've edited it since. Also, it only furthers realism if the explanation makes sense. The fact that the reader wasn't aware of the possibility is not in and of itself a condemnation, any single person isn't going to fully understand the real world, if a fantasy world is well built, then the same should be true there.
I can sort of see where you're coming from, but even as it might further realism, it's still bad writing for a plethora of reasons.
Like? yes, if you use it as an easy button to get yourself out of a jam, then it's horrible. But if it's a legitimate occurrence that you use to further your story, and you just decide not to allow the reader to know about it before hand, than it's just a plot twist. At least, that's my opinion. Deus ex machina could allow you to build up a great deal more tension, as long as you don't destroy your reader's suspension of disbelief by having it be some outrageous magical fix-it like: "A horde of dragons swoops down on NYC and eats the invading army" then I don't see a problem with it.
 

Zannah

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spartan231490 said:
Like? yes, if you use it as an easy button to get yourself out of a jam, then it's horrible. But if it's a legitimate occurrence that you use to further your story, and you just decide not to allow the reader to know about it before hand, than it's just a plot twist. At least, that's my opinion. Deus ex machina could allow you to build up a great deal more tension, as long as you don't destroy your reader's suspension of disbelief by having it be some outrageous magical fix-it like: "A horde of dragons swoops down on NYC and eats the invading army" then I don't see a problem with it.
For one, it's an extremely thin line- you essentially leave up to the reader, whether this occurence is within the willing suspension of disbilief.
Good writing hands the reader the elements, and then comes up with solutions based on the given elements, in a way the audience didn't expect.
Bad writing comes up with a situation that can't possibly be solved, and then introduces the solution out of nowhere. Do it once, and it's bad, do it twice, and for the gain of a little bit of cheap tension and not having to do your job properly, you've passed the chance of ever creating tension again (because people will by then expect you pull something), and most likely broken the willing suspension of disbilief.

If it occurs once, makes sense in hindsight, and it's a mayor plot twist, well ok... it'd have still been better if subtely telegraphed, but ok. Use it for anything lesser, and it's just making excuses for bad writing.
 

emeraldrafael

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I liked it. I saw the Tv series first, but when I read the book, I saw it was way better (Denna's character alone showed that, and the depth of the relation Kahlan and Richard have).

But is it one of the best of all time? Mm... I dont now. I've only read up to I think the third one, blood on the fold, where we are just meetin jagir (however you spell it) so richard is getting his army together. I can say so far, it doesnt sit on the Personal Pantheon that is occupied by these three books series' (in order):
1) The Dark Tower
2) The Castle Rock "series"
3) Castaways of the flying dutchman.

But its definitely a fav, and I think one of the better series out there that isnt over staying its welcome or going stale.