Poll: Borderlands 2 Writer debate over twitter about the racist Tiny Tina

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bastardofmelbourne

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So far at least forty-five posters think it isn't racist and none think it is, so...I would call that a "consensus."

It's pretty silly that this is even a thing, is what I'm getting at.

Edit: Apparently the guy who sparked the whole mess (Mike Sacco) is catching angry gamer flak on his Twitter from it and started circling the wagons in response. This is exactly what the Internet needs; white moral crusaders tilting at racist windmills and then having their position validated by the backlash they've stirred up.

Nothing useful is going to come out of this. I find the whole thing depressing.
 

Drizzitdude

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On snap she said badonkadonk. RACISM! Everyone gather round! We must go on an overreaction crusade!
 

bananafishtoday

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WoW Killer said:
bananafishtoday said:
Intent isn't important; what matters is the actual content. "It wasn't meant to be racist" isn't a valid defense if the work ends up being racist anyway
Bollocks. You're talking of political incorrectness, not racism. You can accidentally say something politically incorrect. You don't accidentally hate people of other races. You don't accidentally believe a race to be inferior to another. You don't accidentally keep slaves or commit genocide. Words aren't racist; only the people saying them can be racist.
"Unknowingly" would be a better word than "accidentally." It's entirely possible to write something that suggests one race is inherently superior to another without realizing how/why it suggests that. This doesn't mean the writer is a bad person, it just means they need to educate themself. Responding to criticism by saying "I don't recognize that I'm doing anything wrong, therefore I'm not doing anything wrong" is just taking refuge in ignorance.

bastardofmelbourne said:
I think a better analogy would be if you were unaware that "bank" could denote the shore of a river, and when I pointed that out, you explained that wasn't what you meant and went on to state that my drawing that conclusion was invalid or unreasonable.

In this respect, I think the writer did exactly what he should have. A few people said they thought Tiny Tina was problematic. The writer put the question to the public so he could get enough information to form an opinion that took into account this new data. Too often you see people in that position deny that that was their intention (even if that's true) and go on to use their intention as a justification for not taking others' perspectives into account. (Often leading to cringeworthy "I'm sorry that you were offended" non-apologies.)

I'm reminded of that blog post by the lead writer of DA3 on female perspectives (link [http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/36214913229/the-female-perspective-in-game-development]):
We were sitting down to peer review a plot [...] As it happened, most of the guys went first. Typical stuff? some stuff was good, some stuff needed work, etc. etc. Then one of the female writers went, and she brought up an issue. A big issue. It had to do with a sexual situation in the plot, which she explained could easily be interpreted as a form of rape.

It wasn't intended that way. In fact, the writer of the plot was mortified. The intention was that it come across as creepy and subverting? but authorial intention is often irrelevant, and we must always consider how what we write will be interpreted. In this case, it was not a long trip for the person playing through the plot to see what was happening at a slightly different angle, and it was no longer good-creepy. It was bad-creepy. It was discomforting and not cool at all. And this female writer was not alone. All the other women at the table nodded their heads, and had noted the same thing in their critiques. So we discussed it, changes were made, and everything was better. Crisis averted.

All good, right? That's what these reviews are for.

Here's the thing: after the meeting was over, it struck me how sharply divided the reviewers were on gender lines. The guys involved, all reasonable and liberal-minded fellows I assure you (including me!) all automatically took the intended viewpoint of the author and didn't see the issue. The girls had all taken the other side of the encounter, and saw it completely differently? all of them. As soon as it was pointed out, it was obvious? but why hadn't we seen it?
Anyway, it's not so much holding the recipient's perspective over that of the sender as it is recognizing that the sender is the one crafting the message, and thus the responsibility of crafting an unambiguous message falls on them. (This is exacerbated by the fact that content creation has one-to-many rather than one-to-one correspondence. If a sender has a specific intent, they need to recognize that multiple interpretations are possible and tailor their messages accordingly.) Some people will always interpret things differently. But if a large group of people draw a conclusion you didn't intend, it's your responsibility to learn enough about their perspective to make an informed judgement as to whether it's "Well, that's just your opinion" vs. "Y'know, I never looked at it that way."

And as for "riverbank" vs. "badonkadonk..." who's to say they don't have the same content? What's a word but a symbol that has achieved some level of consensus-based meaning? "Badonkadonk" has the same denotation within our group of two as "riverbank" does within the group of English-speakers, and the same lack thereof within the groups of human pop - 2 and human pop - English-speakers respectively! (This paragraph is meant to be playful rather than srs.)
 

Ed130 The Vanguard

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Sep 10, 2008
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Wait black people talk like Tiny Tina?

I thought she was a caricature, an exaggeration.

Besides trying to claim slang words to be copyrighted and that only people of a certain race can speak them is sad/moronic/stupid/racist/retarded/idiotic... You get the idea.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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Devoneaux said:
Actually for something to be racist, it has to portray a race or ethnic group as being inferior to another, or to promote hatred toward a specific race or ethnic background. You can do this without meaning to. It's not a matter of intent
While your chosen definition of the word is far from meritless, I would remind you that it is also not definitive, [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism?s=t] and that it's a good idea to check a dictionary before correcting someone on the meaning of a certain word.

I'm not trying to be a grammar nazi. I'm just pointing out that the dictionary definition of "racism" is broad enough to encompass both yours and WoW Killer's statements, and that it would be silly to promote one to the exclusion of the other in an "Actually, the word means this," kind of way.
 

Strazdas

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and this is why i been telling you guys PC has gone way too far. you didnt believe me, now face the consequences.

P.S. this is the only poll where i saw a complete 100% one way answer. must resist temptation to ruin....
 

Coffeejack

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Nonsense. At worst, Tiny Tina's shouting is somewhat grating on the nerves. I can go where I please and speak whatever colloquialisms, languages or slang I damn well please. Whoever wrote Tiny Tina's lines should have the same freedom. No fucker oot there oons the rights tae words, ken?

The boggin' bastarts.

P.S. You can't be racist, because there are no races. It is an outdated term and needs to be replaced with something more suitable.
 

Signa

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Tanis said:
OT:
But, no.

Unless a black person talking all 'proper like' is a black being racist...then NO.
Ironically, your comment is far more racist than Tiny Tina ever was. That's not a problem with you or your comment, just the way we are all being told to think about racism. I'm starting to think of myself as an anti-anti-racist, because being just plain old anti-racist puts me in the same group of people as these idiots. I'd prefer to take my chances being confused by someone who thinks calling myself that means I'm pro-racist than to associate myself with morons. The difference should be clear to anyone getting sick of this PC bullshit.
 

Denamic

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She should obviously talk like white people, otherwise she's racist.

Odd, I suddenly have a slight migraine.
 

Colonel Mustard

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When I first saw the title of this thread I thought that it was Tiny Tina as a character being racist in the game, like in the new DLC or something.

As it is, no. It's kind of a silly charicature of 'street speak' but I've heard that sort of thing from plenty of people from other races as well. Not really a racial thing at all, as far as I can tell.
 

Clive Howlitzer

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She isn't racist. She is just god damn annoying. I wanted to put a bullet in her head after hearing her for about 15 seconds. She basically represented everything annoying about the internet.
 

daveman247

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I do believe this may be one of the few times every poster on a thread generally agrees on something :p
 

WanderingFool

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I think the people upset over this need to calm the fuck down, and focus on an actual cause, rather than a make-believe little girl in a videogame...
 

ShinyCharizard

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How did anyone even consider Tiny Tina to be racist, the comparison to black people never even entered my mind. I think the people who think this is how black people talk are the racist ones.
 

Madman123456

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There is this saying People invented so they could bash other People with when they aren't really "racist" about something.
The vastly overused "racially insensitive", which get's misused so much that i feel that i wouldn't even be able to write something for an Audience.

I had to read the text first before i knew what those People meant. When will this political correctness shit be over?
Political correctness and our crippling fear of doing something that might somehow hurt someone's sensitive soul is beginning to hamper philosophical development of us all.
We can't talk about shit and have a discussion about it without being bashed to death by either political correctness or racists. In this case, the Political correctness faction is doing the actual damage. I'm certain that several People think twice about writing a white character says. Warning! This word could be considered "slang" or something. While we're at it, why not rip out words that sound like something "evil" in another Language. Bleh.


Imagine that i'm a writer. Let's say i write scripts for movies. Me being caucasian, i might think that this and that actor, Let's say morgan Freeman is going to nail the role of my badguy. Not because he's black but because i think he would nail the role. Bleh, i already felt the need to clarify that. You, dear reader, had your "yellow racism alert" going that has been installed into your brain.
We should do away with racism, no question; but People shouldn't have to clarify everything to avoid being called racist and then being called racist anyways because they singled out someone who happens to be of another ethnicity.
That is where the "token black guy" comes from.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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bananafishtoday said:
I think a better analogy would be if you were unaware that "bank" could denote the shore of a river, and when I pointed that out, you explained that wasn't what you meant and went on to state that my drawing that conclusion was invalid or unreasonable.
There are two sides to this. On the one hand, if you called me later complaining that I wasn't at the riverbank, I wouldn't be justified in saying "Why on Earth would you think I was talking about the river?" because the ambiguity is clearly present. On the other hand, you wouldn't be justified in saying that I'd really meant the riverbank, and it was my fault for not showing up there.

Both are logical leaps that sort of shift blame onto the other party, when really, a communications breakdown is usually a two-party error. It's mostly the sender's fault for not being clear, but it's partly the recipient's fault for not considering the sender's perspective. That's why it's really important that the sender's perspective not just get thrown out on the basis that intent doesn't matter.

I'm reminded of that blog post by the lead writer of DA3 on female perspectives (link [http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/36214913229/the-female-perspective-in-game-development]):
I've read that blog post and I sort of know what you're saying. I guess what I'm saying is that if it'd never been pointed out, and Bioware had gone ahead with the offending material in DA3, and someone had been offended, it would be unfair to the writers if they were told that it didn't matter that they were unaware the material was offensive. In that scenario, you can only blame the writers for ignorance, not sexism. They're obviously not sexist - as soon as it was pointed out, they couldn't cut it fast enough. Should we blame them for just being unaware?

It's often very difficult to tell what will or won't upset other people. This particular potentially offensive element that Gaider talks about was nipped in the bud, but as this very thread shows, people can get upset about extremely innocuous material. You can't expect the writers to be prescient.

Anyway, it's not so much holding the recipient's perspective over that of the sender as it is recognizing that the sender is the one crafting the message, and thus the responsibility of crafting an unambiguous message falls on them. (This is exacerbated by the fact that content creation has one-to-many rather than one-to-one correspondence. If a sender has a specific intent, they need to recognize that multiple interpretations are possible and tailor their messages accordingly.) Some people will always interpret things differently. But if a large group of people draw a conclusion you didn't intend, it's your responsibility to learn enough about their perspective to make an informed judgement as to whether it's "Well, that's just your opinion" vs. "Y'know, I never looked at it that way."
I actually disagree here. If a sender has to craft a one-to-many message, that dramatically increases the risk of misinterpretation because he can't possibly account for the reactions of every recipient. I think that actually lessens his responsibility. You're perfectly correct in saying that the more recipients there are, the more interpretations are possible, but I think expecting a writer to somehow craft a message to account for all of those myriad possible interpretations in a way that will offend absolutely no-one is aiming a little high.

I sometimes think that the reason there are so many kerfuffles like this one is because we expect writers to know ahead of time that so-and-so might offend someone, when really they don't know if something is going to be offensive until it's offended someone. The gaming media kind of performs this logical backflip where they say "You should have known this was offensive!" and then turn around and say "It doesn't matter if you don't think it's offensive, it offended someone!"

I don't think writers should just blaze forward heedless of their audience's concerns. I think that Bioware post you linked is a great example of how to filter out potentially offensive ideas. In that case, it was as simple as having a woman around to point out something that would only offend a woman. But I also think that video game writers are never going to catch every offensive message. And if one slips through, we shouldn't react as if the writers intended to offend people while simultaneously telling the writers that it doesn't matter that they didn't intend to offend anybody. (I'm not saying that's what you were doing! :/ It's just the specific type of double bind I often see writers put in these kinds of situations.) Ideally, the fact that no offence was intended should clear up the offence that was caused.

Anyway. I've basically made my point. Thanks for responding all gentleman-like.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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Devoneaux said:
To be perfectly honest, i'm pretty sure the way that "Racism" is equated to "Prejudice" is like saying "irregardless" is a word: Technically correct, but you look like a damn fool for thinking that.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. "Irregardless" is a silly word because it's a double negative that is used incorrectly to mean "regardless." Why is equating racism (the belief that certain races are inferior/superior to others) and racial prejudice (the act of judging someone as inferior/superior based on irrelevent racial characteristics) the same mistake?

Irregardless and regardless are logically incompatible; they're literally opposites. Racism and racial prejudice are not opposites and not logically incompatible. It is entirely possible to be racist by exhibiting racial prejudice.

I get this feeling that the secondary definition of "Racism" was only added in as the masses failed to understand that those two different words conveyed two different concepts and it just became easier to combine them. I'm not sure if that's actually true or not, but that's just the feeling I get.
I don't think it's true because I don't think racism and prejudice are as incompatible as you make them out to be. I mean, they're obviously not synonymous, but the act of being racist involves a certain amount of racial prejudice. If you believe certain races are inferior, you are judging members of those races as inferior. We're splitting some damn fine hairs here if all you're doing is drawing a distinction between holding a belief and making judgments based on that belief. And even if you draw that distinction, how does it support the definition of racism you've chosen (that is, any portrayal of certain races as inferior regardless of intent?)

Just curiously - and I really am trying so hard to avoid being a grammar nazi now - why did you assume that the dictionary definition of racism was the "secondary" definition?