Poll: Buying Beyond Two Souls? Strong female protagonist included and discussion.

[The Danger]

Well it makes a perfect benchmark, it's giving what everyone is up in arms about especially while GTA not having a female lead is hot on the mind.

That's like me making shit pie and then, after no one wants it, I conclude that no one actually likes pie. It's a bullshit benchmark.

 

[Eve Charm]

Actually this won't be a solid test. A game can fail for more reasions than just the gender of the protagonist. Will you be looking at those reasons?

Frankly more data would be preferred to help weed out the inconsistentcies of the other factors that could make a game fail. This thread says it all, thre's people not buying it because of the developer among other things. It's unfair to lay that blame on the female protagonist.

What other reasons are there that a game like this may fail, and heavy rain at least made greatest hits. Like I said, the developer developed a game before Heavy Rain, Indigo Prophecy. For the people that had problems with the developer after indigo wouldn't have bought heavy rain and in all the articles about heavy rain coming out they 90% of the time mentioned indigo.

They are the same genre of game, they both I'm sure are have weird stories with weird plot twists.

Honestly it's getting incomplete data like you propose that likely created the lack of, then outcry for more female protagonists.

That's Exactly what people are doing right now and why this is the prefect source for the data. Either game sells well or at least better the heavy rain and we can all go " Look gamers really do want female and diverse protagonists buy games with them." Or the game sells like crap on an equal playing field " Well the people complaining aren't actually buying the games, or not buying them enough to waste the time on them." or sells just as well to say gender doesn't really actually matter.

 

[Eve Charm]

Well it makes a perfect benchmark, it's giving what everyone is up in arms about especially while GTA not having a female lead is hot on the mind.

That's like me making shit pie and then, after no one wants it, I conclude that no one actually likes pie. It's a bullshit benchmark.

Well if a ton of people wanted a cherry crap pie to make heavy rain a greatest hit which is selling over at least 400,000 in the first 9 months and no where near as many want a apple crap pie, more people want cherry then apple if everything else is basically the same.

Your also over estimating that the average consumer really knows a damn thing about David cage or QT besides the other games.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Actually this won't be a solid test. A game can fail for more reasions than just the gender of the protagonist. Will you be looking at those reasons?

Frankly more data would be preferred to help weed out the inconsistentcies of the other factors that could make a game fail. This thread says it all, thre's people not buying it because of the developer among other things. It's unfair to lay that blame on the female protagonist.

What other reasons are there that a game like this may fail, and heavy rain at least made greatest hits. Like I said, the developer developed a game before Heavy Rain, Indigo Prophecy. For the people that had problems with the developer after indigo wouldn't have bought heavy rain and in all the articles about heavy rain coming out they 90% of the time mentioned indigo.

They are the same genre of game, they both I'm sure are have weird stories with weird plot twists.

Honestly it's getting incomplete data like you propose that likely created the lack of, then outcry for more female protagonists.

That's Exactly what people are doing right now and why this is the prefect source for the data. Either game sells well or at least better the heavy rain and we can all go " Look gamers really do want female and diverse protagonists buy games with them." Or the game sells like crap on an equal playing field " Well the people complaining aren't actually buying the games, or not buying them enough to waste the time on them." or sells just as well to say gender doesn't really actually matter.

Lets see, what other reasons? Aside from developer? Gameplay, bugs, niche market. Same reasons any game can fail. If we discontinued protagonists based on failings, we wouldn't be gaming anymore, coz a lot of guys had their games fail. We don't heap that at the gender of the male protagonist the same as people do for women, do we? Nope, we still get the dudebro catering, and steady stream of straight white guys.

For the stated reasons a game can fail, it's a bit too early to count on the game to be any sort of valid test.
One game isn't going to kill the idea that female protagonists hurt game sales. One game won't make potential customers flock to an industry that's been steadily ignoring the heck out of them. It's going to take time, and effort, and it won't be over night.
Of course I'll be damned surprised if B2S does topple the hostility towards women in gaming. <.<

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

No, The graphics scream uncanny valley and they make me uncomfortable looking at them. The female protagonist is cool and all, but yikes.

 

[The Danger]

Well it makes a perfect benchmark, it's giving what everyone is up in arms about especially while GTA not having a female lead is hot on the mind.

That's like me making shit pie and then, after no one wants it, I conclude that no one actually likes pie. It's a bullshit benchmark.

Well if a ton of people wanted a cherry crap pie to make heavy rain a greatest hit which is selling over at least 400,000 in the first 9 months and no where near as many want a apple crap pie, more people want cherry then apple if everything else is basically the same.

Your also over estimating that the average consumer really knows a damn thing about David cage or QT besides the other games.

From what I gather, you're running a ceteris paribus argument with shit-pies. First time, people buy "cherry crap pies;" second time around, if no one buys the "apple crap pies," then--according to you--it can ONLY MEAN that people like cherry more than apple.

Stop and think about how insane that is. It might make it easier to pretend that the people don't know they're buying pies with shit in them the first time around. After all, Cage didn't exactly advertise his games' shittiness.

So you go to a stall and buy some pie. Lo and behold, when you take your first bite, you literally ate shit. Disgusted, you throw the pie to the ground, yell at the vendor, and storm off.

The next day, you see the same guy, except today he's selling "apple pies." Your friend asks you if you want one. You say no. Your friend then asks, "What, don't like apple?"

Realistically, what are you going to say to your friend? Probably something like "No, apple's fine, but that guy sells pies with shit in them. Like, literal fecal matter. DO NOT BUY ONE."

Do you see how alternative factors may play into this game's success/failure, perhaps to a larger extent than you originally thought? If people don't buy Beyond Two Souls--and I don't think it'll sell very well at all--it WON'T be because it's "apple" rather than "cherry," i.e. has a female protagonist rather than a male one. It will be because everyone's told about everyone, at this point, to at least be cautious when buying from pie-vendor David Cage, because he has been known to sell games that are at least 70% shit.

You made a second point about the "average gamer" not knowing anything about Cage or QT. I think this "average gamer" is one of two kinds. The first doesn't know anything about Heavy Rain or Indigo Prophecy either. If this gamer is of this kind, then he or she won't buy BTS anyway, because it's not CoD or GTA or any other recognizable brand name. No offense to anyone who hasn't heard of Heavy Rain, but if you didn't hear about Heavy Rain, you're not paying attention to video games. Returning to the pie vendor analogy, this person refuses to eat anything other than pizza, so he or she will never, ever buy pie to begin with.

The second kind of "average gamer" has at least heard about Heavy Rain enough to know what kind of game it is, but never bought it. Odds are, they didn't buy it because they didn't care for the "story-driven" (i.e. QTE-driven) nature of the game. Returning again to our tortured analogy of the pie vendor, this person again will not buy pie: the flavor of the pie in their decision doesn't matter, because it's pie, and pie isn't very good to them.

Both kinds of "average gamer" are already less likely to buy Cage's games, regardless of its "flavor" or the gender of the protagonist.

For these reasons, I think your use of BTS is incredibly biased, and you really ought to reconsider.

 

[Eve Charm]

Lets see, what other reasons? Aside from developer? Gameplay, bugs, niche market. Same reasons any game can fail. If we discontinued protagonists based on failings, we wouldn't be gaming anymore, coz a lot of guys had their games fail. We don't heap that at the gender of the male protagonist the same as people do for women, do we? Nope, we still get the dudebro catering, and steady stream of straight white guys.

For the stated reasons a game can fail, it's a bit too early to count on the game to be any sort of valid test.
One game isn't going to kill the idea that female protagonists hurt game sales. One game won't make potential customers flock to an industry that's been steadily ignoring the heck out of them. It's going to take time, and effort, and it won't be over night.
Of course I'll be damned surprised if B2S does topple the hostility towards women in gaming. <.<

It's the same niche market as heavy rain along again with the developer. Being an interactive story and Gameplay won't be the main focus if not basically the same as Heavy rain with context sensitive actions and QTE's. Also it's not the type of game to really have many bugs being mostly story. Also people usually get better the more games they make so I doubt people aren't gonna wait to buy the game afraid of bugs.

And as far as discontinuing bad male protagonist Nero didn't make it into the DMC reboot so they die deserving to from time to time and some people are sick of your male dudebro protagonists to, That's why the term dudebro exists.

Last one game won't make potential customers flock to it??? Walking dead didn't bring everyone back to Adventure games? Xcom enemy unknown didn't revive the xcom franchise when they shown the crappy shooter and everyone screamed "Where's are RTS we want RTS back!" they made it and people bought it because they weren't full of hot air. If people really want a type of game, and someone makes that game, they buy it

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Lets see, what other reasons? Aside from developer? Gameplay, bugs, niche market. Same reasons any game can fail. If we discontinued protagonists based on failings, we wouldn't be gaming anymore, coz a lot of guys had their games fail. We don't heap that at the gender of the male protagonist the same as people do for women, do we? Nope, we still get the dudebro catering, and steady stream of straight white guys.

For the stated reasons a game can fail, it's a bit too early to count on the game to be any sort of valid test.
One game isn't going to kill the idea that female protagonists hurt game sales. One game won't make potential customers flock to an industry that's been steadily ignoring the heck out of them. It's going to take time, and effort, and it won't be over night.
Of course I'll be damned surprised if B2S does topple the hostility towards women in gaming. <.<

It's the same niche market as heavy rain along again with the developer. Being an interactive story and Gameplay won't be the main focus if not basically the same as Heavy rain with context sensitive actions and QTE's. Also it's not the type of game to really have many bugs being mostly story. Also people usually get better the more games they make so I doubt people aren't gonna wait to buy the game afraid of bugs.

And as far as discontinuing bad male protagonist Nero didn't make it into the DMC reboot so they die deserving to from time to time and some people are sick of your male dudebro protagonists to, That's why the term dudebro exists.

Last one game won't make potential customers flock to it??? Walking dead didn't bring everyone back to Adventure games? Xcom enemy unknown didn't revive the xcom franchise when they shown the crappy shooter and everyone screamed "Where's are RTS we want RTS back!" they made it and people bought it because they weren't full of hot air. If people really want a type of game, and someone makes that game, they buy it

You're pretty optimistic about the quality of the game. That's fine. I'm just saying if there's things wrong with the game, it's not fair to blame the female protagonist.

I mean the failings of a few female protagonists oblitterated their population between now and the 90's, and only now is it really starting back up, if at all. Few to no new female protagonists came about for a long time. Basically an entire gender suffered.
We may not have Nero, but we've got so many white straight males still, despite other male characters failing.
The male gender isn't suffering as a whole because a few failed like the female gender has.

I feel there's a difference between an entire gender being ignored, sexualized, objectified, etc. for over a decade vs a genre of gaming being ignored for several years. Coz, well, like I said, gameplay can affect a game's sales. Protagonist gender vs style of gameplay. It's 2 different variables.

 

[Eve Charm]

Do you see how alternative factors may play into this game's success/failure, perhaps to a larger extent than you originally thought? If people don't buy Beyond Two Souls--and I don't think it'll sell very well at all--it WON'T be because it's "apple" rather than "cherry," i.e. has a female protagonist rather than a male one. It will be because everyone's told about everyone, at this point, to at least be cautious when buying from pie-vendor David Cage, because he has been known to sell games that are at least 70% shit.

Yes and your informed people also knew the kind of games he made when they were going to buy Heavy rain. They either bought it because they liked indigo, or didn't buy it because they didn't like indigo. HOW is that logic any different from buying BTS because they liked Heavy rain, or not buying it because they like heavy rain. Even if you want to say they'll be more cautious wouldn't that be even better for saying if it's got a female protagonist I'll either buy it or not.

You made a second point about the "average gamer" not knowing anything about Cage or QT. I think this "average gamer" is one of two kinds. The first doesn't know anything about Heavy Rain or Indigo Prophecy either. If this gamer is of this kind, then he or she won't buy BTS anyway, because it's not CoD or GTA or any other recognizable brand name. No offense to anyone who hasn't heard of Heavy Rain, but if you didn't hear about Heavy Rain, you're not paying attention to video games. Returning to the pie vendor analogy, this person refuses to eat anything other than pizza, so he or she will never, ever buy pie to begin with.

The second kind of "average gamer" has at least heard about Heavy Rain enough to know what kind of game it is, but never bought it. Odds are, they didn't buy it because they didn't care for the "story-driven" (i.e. QTE-driven) nature of the game. Returning again to our tortured analogy of the pie vendor, this person again will not buy pie: the flavor of the pie in their decision doesn't matter, because it's pie, and pie isn't very good to them.

Both kinds of "average gamer" are already less likely to buy Cage's games, regardless of its "flavor" or the gender of the protagonist.

Your proving your my logic yourself. There are people that bought Heavy rain, Indigo, and there will be people the buy beyond two souls off the cover of the box or knowing little to nothing about it. There will also be people that won't. Beyond two souls will have the same chance that heavy rain did, and if heavy rain did "good" given all the same opportunity and being the same game that will target the same people, It should do just as good.

For these reasons, I think your use of BTS is incredibly biased, and you really ought to reconsider.

Why is it bias to think that two games with the same background, the same type of game, going after the same market, even with the same maker, having the same type of prequel game to compare it to, Will do the same!

Lets look at football a second, There is madden 25, and ncaa 14, They both are football games, they both have games that have been out before it, they both have had the same makers, they both go after the same market, But madden outsells ncaa by a large amount. If the big difference between the two is Madden is pro football, and Ncaa is college football, People like PRO football better!

Beyond and Heavy rain on an smaller scale CAN have the same comparison. There is no reason people shouldn't be able to take the sales of Beyond and take the sales of Heavy at the same point, compare them and say, "Well the only huge difference with the games is it being about an story with a Female lead vs a story with a Male lead."

 

[Eve Charm]

You're pretty optimistic about the quality of the game. That's fine. I'm just saying if there's things wrong with the game, it's not fair to blame the female protagonist.

I mean the failings of a few female protagonists oblitterated their population between now and the 90's, and only now is it really starting back up, if at all. Few to no new female protagonists came about for a long time. Basically an entire gender suffered.
We may not have Nero, but we've got so many white straight males still, despite other male characters failing.
The male gender isn't suffering as a whole because a few failed like the female gender has.

I feel there's a difference between an entire gender being ignored, sexualized, objectified, etc. for over a decade vs a genre of gaming being ignored for several years. Coz, well, like I said, gameplay can affect a game's sales. Protagonist gender vs style of gameplay. It's 2 different variables.

Well just assuming the guys that have been making QTE the game, the past few games, can make QTE the game again.

What ultimately decides success and failure is sales. Heavily sword was a good game, had a strong female character, had a better character then god of war's Kratos, it just didn't sell so it died. Tomb raider always sold so it stuck around. Same with male characters, Binary domain, Inverse, Viking and other ones that failed despite being straight male aren't going to see part two or if they do it will be a complete reboot like wolfenstien.

As long as this doesn't turn out to be a giant flop like Aliens:CM, It better have a good showing and people that feel like it will be bad to have a lack of female protagonist should help it and make sure it gets talked about and get sales.

 

[lunavixen]

I played the demo and the control scheme is very reminiscent of Heavy Rain, though not quite as slow as Heavy Rain. I'm not preordering it as my car rego is due, though IF I have enough money left over I will.

The fact that the main protagonist is female is inconsequential, but not a bad thing.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

You're pretty optimistic about the quality of the game. That's fine. I'm just saying if there's things wrong with the game, it's not fair to blame the female protagonist.

I mean the failings of a few female protagonists oblitterated their population between now and the 90's, and only now is it really starting back up, if at all. Few to no new female protagonists came about for a long time. Basically an entire gender suffered.
We may not have Nero, but we've got so many white straight males still, despite other male characters failing.
The male gender isn't suffering as a whole because a few failed like the female gender has.

I feel there's a difference between an entire gender being ignored, sexualized, objectified, etc. for over a decade vs a genre of gaming being ignored for several years. Coz, well, like I said, gameplay can affect a game's sales. Protagonist gender vs style of gameplay. It's 2 different variables.

Well just assuming the guys that have been making QTE the game, the past few games, can make QTE the game again.

What ultimately decides success and failure is sales. Heavily sword was a good game, had a strong female character, had a better character then god of war's Kratos, it just didn't sell so it died. Tomb raider always sold so it stuck around. Same with male characters, Binary domain, Inverse, Viking and other ones that failed despite being straight male aren't going to see part two or if they do it will be a complete reboot like wolfenstien.

As long as this doesn't turn out to be a giant flop like Aliens:CM, It better have a good showing and people that feel like it will be bad to have a lack of female protagonist should help it and make sure it gets talked about and get sales.

Volition made saints row for years, open world sandbox game for years. They managed to make people mad.

Peopel already -had- god of war. Buying another game almost exactly like it might not have been appealing, and there was a lot of God of War derrivitive games made. Almost none of them made it. And calling Nariko better than Kratos is an opinion. An opinion I agree with, but not everyone will share it.

The game industry only looked at the gender of the female protagonists, not any of the other variables, and just got hostile to the idea of female characters. Guys didn't get that treatment when their games failed, they became straight white male default. There's no hostility towards guy protagonists despite so many failing.

I just think you're setting some unreal expectations on B2S. It's not even out yet, and already, in this thread, there's people who don't care about the gender of the protagonist, rather they aren't buying it for other reasons. Game style reasons, and developer reasons. Not female character reasons. It's unfair to judge the female protagonist for things that don't even factor her in.
We'll have to see female protgonists in a variety of gameplay situations before we know, IMO.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I know I won't be buying it (I find David Cage to be a horrendous story teller. Example, remember that whole thing in Heavy Rain where Ethan kept passing out and finding Oragami figures in his jacket? Remember how it was totally dropped leaving a gaping plot hole? Yea.) but if the game has a good female lead than good for them.

Those biggest plot holes occurred unfortunately in large due to cut content:

http://www.giantbomb.com/heavy-rain/3030-21304/forums/deleted-scenes-explain-the-games-biggest-plot-hole-464364/#

Personally, I loved the game. It totally sucked me in, and I finished it in two evenings. Here's hoping Beyond can improve on the formula, but also keep some of the atmosphere and noir setting that made Heavy Rain so good.

David Cage CHOSE to cut all of that content though, because at the last second he decided that all the super natural bullshit was dumb. So he chose between making a dumb game that made sense, and a dumb game that makes no sense whatsoever and has dumb plotholes all over the place, and he chose the WORSE option.

 

[debtcollector]

Holy. Fucking. Shit. I had no idea people hated David Cage so much. Why is that? He seems like a nice guy. Have you seen his interviews? Yes? So, you're still gonna call him "poison" and "A Song of Cage and Fail"? Huh. Well, remind me to never become a high-profile game developer.

OT: Aside from the completely irrational bullshit hate surrounding this whole thing, I'm pretty excited for it. That said, I'm not excited because of the female lead, but because it's a Quantic Dream production, and because it has two high-profile actors on the cover. I like that because, in my naive little heart, I imagine the small amount of press coverage that'll surround Dafoe and Page's involvement might make the media realize games are sort of a thing for grown-ups now.

But, for reals, can we dial back the vitriol a bit? So you don't like his games. You don't need to pillory the guy, just say so and move on.

 

[Eve Charm]

Volition made saints row for years, open world sandbox game for years. They managed to make people mad.

Peopel already -had- god of war. Buying another game almost exactly like it might not have been appealing, and there was a lot of God of War derrivitive games made. Almost none of them made it. And calling Nariko better than Kratos is an opinion. An opinion I agree with, but not everyone will share it.

The game industry only looked at the gender of the female protagonists, not any of the other variables, and just got hostile to the idea of female characters. Guys didn't get that treatment when their games failed, they became straight white male default. There's no hostility towards guy protagonists despite so many failing.

I just think you're setting some unreal expectations on B2S. It's not even out yet, and already, in this thread, there's people who don't care about the gender of the protagonist, rather they aren't buying it for other reasons. Game style reasons, and developer reasons. Not female character reasons. It's unfair to judge the female protagonist for things that don't even factor her in.
We'll have to see female protgonists in a variety of gameplay situations before we know, IMO.

Well Saints row "fans" were your whiny vocals that like to complain because the game stopped trying to be a cheap GTA knockoff, and stepped into it's own light, but they had to cut down on some of the customization a bit but there still is so much customization still I don't really get what the complaint is? Also neither did Volition and the rest of the fans because they made saints row 4 because saints row 3 sold well.

And also a good sign now is a demo is out already a week early to even create more buzz and i'm sure you can try and tell to see the controls aren't buggy.

 

[Amakusa]

I will probably get it, i like heavy rain, i found it an enjoyable storytelling experience. However i will also wait for reviews to finalise my decision.

 

[Azure23]

I could talk about how quantic dream games are barely interactive cutscenes or I could talk about the horribly wooden performances by the actors or David Cage's insistence on having French voice actors deliver stuttering English, but honestly what it comes down to is that David Cage is an egotistical hack. Seriously, I hate his writing. I mean, when I heard Telltale say they wanted to make a game in his style I cringed, but hey, The Walking Dead is amazing, turns out all you have to do to make a great modern adventure game is not let David Cage anywhere near it.

 

[King Billi]

David Cage CHOSE to cut all of that content though, because at the last second he decided that all the super natural bullshit was dumb. So he chose between making a dumb game that made sense, and a dumb game that makes no sense whatsoever and has dumb plotholes all over the place, and he chose the WORSE option.

I could talk about how quantic dream games are barely interactive cutscenes or I could talk about the horribly wooden performances by the actors or David Cage's insistence on having French voice actors deliver stuttering English, but honestly what it comes down to is that David Cage is an egotistical hack. Seriously, I hate his writing. I mean, when I heard Telltale say they wanted to make a game in his style I cringed, but hey, The Walking Dead is amazing, turns out all you have to do to make a great modern adventure game is not let David Cage anywhere near it.

You know what? I'm curious too, what the hell has David Cage done to deserve this kind of vitriol?
Because he's stuck up? Because he said some Bull**** about "emotion" and what HE personally thinks games need to do in order to improve in the future that is apparently just unacceptable to some people? Seriously folks he's just a guy.

Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain both have quick time events and they both have plot holes which are perfectly valid reasons to dislike them, but is that really not enough? You have to go out of your way to make sure people know you think that one guy is scum?

Why does it have to be so bloody personal?

 

[James Joseph Emerald]

It's like it was written by the twin brother character from the film Adaptation

That is the most hilariously true description of David Cage I've ever seen.

"So then it turns out that the killer, the kidnapped girl, and the cop are all actually the same person. The killer has multiple personality disorder. Isn't that fucked up?"

[Later]

"So the killer flees on horseback with the girl, the cop's after them on a motorcycle and it's like a battle between motors and horses, like technology vs. horse."
"And they're all still the one person, right?"

 

[Azure23]

David Cage CHOSE to cut all of that content though, because at the last second he decided that all the super natural bullshit was dumb. So he chose between making a dumb game that made sense, and a dumb game that makes no sense whatsoever and has dumb plotholes all over the place, and he chose the WORSE option.

I could talk about how quantic dream games are barely interactive cutscenes or I could talk about the horribly wooden performances by the actors or David Cage's insistence on having French voice actors deliver stuttering English, but honestly what it comes down to is that David Cage is an egotistical hack. Seriously, I hate his writing. I mean, when I heard Telltale say they wanted to make a game in his style I cringed, but hey, The Walking Dead is amazing, turns out all you have to do to make a great modern adventure game is not let David Cage anywhere near it.

You know what? I'm curious too, what the hell has David Cage done to deserve this kind of vitriol?
Because he's stuck up? Because he said some Bull**** about "emotion" and what HE personally thinks games need to do in order to improve in the future that is apparently just unacceptable to some people? Seriously folks he's just a guy.

Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain both have quick time events and they both have plot holes which are perfectly valid reasons to dislike them, but is that really not enough? You have to go out of your way to make sure people know you think that one guy is scum?

Why does it have to be so bloody personal?

Dude I just really don't like his writing, or his directorial style as he chooses to call it. And he thinks he's better than every other developer out there, just because he thinks his "movies" should be taken more seriously than a game with actual gameplay. He paints himself as some kind of suffering auteur stuck in the video game industry when he really wants to be writing movies. So yeah, I don't like his games because his writing is plain bad, and I don't particularly like him because he constantly looks down on talented developers and the video game industry in general.