Poll: Capitalism VS Communism VS Socialism

[jezz8me]

Personally i support Socialist Democracies like Sweeden. They are run like a democracy but with socialist ideologies and if socialism is getting the country into the shit it can be voted out.

Who has ever heard anything bad about Sweeden's political state?

 

[Serious_Stalin]

It depends on who is in charge up top? I don't understand how this is a poll of ideologies and yet we have to assume that Stalins in charge of communism (the guy who totally screwed it up) and leaders haven't been assigned to either of the other ones.
If we were to assume a strict but fair guy was in charge then communism. I don't think socialism would have an effective way to fight crime, and capitilism is of course good as well as long as there is a balance, lez eh fair (i'll spell it how I want!) is a fantastic idea until all of the power has slipped out of the goverments hands and corporations run the country.

 

[JMeganSnow]

Personally i support Socialist Democracies like Sweeden. They are run like a democracy but with socialist ideologies and if socialism is getting the country into the shit it can be voted out.

Who has ever heard anything bad about Sweeden's political state?

Um, me. [http://www.freedomandprosperity.org/Papers/sweden/sweden.shtml]

 

[lenin_117]

In response To JMeganSnow

To your reply to Firstly:
That is not socialism. It also depends to what degree the socialism is implemented. Cannibalism is the eathing of human flesh (if you were a human)

To your reply to Secondly:
Centralised to different degrees

To your reply to Thirdly:
The fact that happens in socialism but wouldn't happen in capitalsim is arguable (but for the love of god don't)

To your reply to Fourthly:
Meh. I don't really know enough about this topic, especially specific examples.

To your reply to Finally:
British Health Care Wait got 3,670,000 responses.
USA Health Care Wait got.... 20,600,000 responses.

Quote:

ME: P.S I don't see how capitalism does it any better.


JMeganSnow: Perhaps it doesn't--but it doesn't matter because I don't believe in any such mythical creature as "society as a whole" or it's equally mythical "good". I just believe in leaving individual men free to pursue such goods as they choose by their own judgment. The track record of free men has been fantastical beyond belief, but even if it weren't, I wouldn't see that as any justification for chains and slavery. Men are not cattle to be driven and yoked for *anybody's* purpose.

Me Now: The track record for free men (anarchy) has not been fantastical beyond belief. It hasn't been great or even good. Not even mediocre. Also, socialism does not equal chains, slavery and men being treated as cattle. Keep all metaphores relevant.

P.S. What time is it at your place now? Jesus get some sleep.

 

[Bowstring]

On the subject of the British Health Service; I think that the current system is the most beneficial for the highest percentage of the population.

The NHS uses a 'waiting list' system, based on the urgency and severity of the patient's case. There is no specific prejudice, and everyone gets treated equally, without bias towards certain classes or those who are financially better off. I think this is the most fair system overall.

There are alternatives though. In the U.K. you can either have public healthcare for free (the NHS) or you can pay to go privately. This means that everyone will get healthcare, but there is the capitalist option of actally paying for it if you can afford it.

 

[Phillosophic]

Why should the educated not be payed more than those who aren't? If you have the good sense to work though your school years and better yourself then Id say you deserve to be payed more. Especially in (at least the UK) a system where everyone can easily get access to the highest level of education.

If you have responsibility then you can be sacked for what someone else does. This is quite a gamble which surely requires some monetary reward?

If you had an idea or invention then of course you should be payed alot for that. If not wheres the incentive to invent things?

Fact is you need to have some that are payed more than others, if everyone gets the same amount then why would you try to better yourself? If I could coast through school, not work for any exams, not listen at all and get payed the same as someone whos done years and years of education why would you bother? And that pool is filled by everybody because it keeps the markets turning, if you stop buying products companies stop making money, they cut back on workers which results in lower produce and in turn more cutbacks.

Perhaps not everyone is motivated by money? You ever think of that? Oh how I love it that bettering yourself always has to be in the financial sense. This is why nothig ever works, most people are obsessed with money/power. To keep on track, Anarchy yay, just for a laugh.

 

[JMeganSnow]

capitilism is of course good as well as long as there is a balance, lez eh fair (i'll spell it how I want!) is a fantastic idea until all of the power has slipped out of the goverments hands and corporations run the country.

Yeah, that would seem pretty grim if it weren't also a fairy tale, but the process of booting the government out of the economy also boots corporations out of the government, and without the political power to achieve their ends by force, corporations can't "run" the country.

The abuses that people fear from corporations are made possible by government interference. Corporation booting you out of your house in order to build a mall? Not without eminent domain, they don't. (They *can* offer you a shitload of money, in which case you've made out like a bandit so I hardly see why you'd COMPLAIN.) Charging unreasonably high prices? Not without government controls that keep competitors off the market. True Laissez-Faire Capitalism *does* work because everyone is pretty well motivated to Cover Their Own Ass. You'd rather depend on a central planner's motivation to cover YOUR ass--when he's never met you and never will and you're just some faceless "prole" to him?

And I'd make the effort to spell Laissez-faire correctly if I were you. It's French, which means that L'Académie française will bust a cap in yo' ass if you screw it up. They WILL find you. Thousands of unemployed Frenchmen stand ready to be mobilized to preserve the sanctity of the mother tongue!

 

[JMeganSnow]

Perhaps not everyone is motivated by money? You ever think of that? Oh how I love it that bettering yourself always has to be in the financial sense. This is why nothig ever works, most people are obsessed with money/power. To keep on track, Anarchy yay, just for a laugh.

So what are they motivated by, stupidity? Money is just the physical form of the concept of a *reward*. There are people out there that enjoy hurting themselves for no reward--they're called masochists. Sure, there are rewards that aren't and can't be symbolized by money--love, admiration, self-respect . . . but how can your boss give you *those* on command?! Would you *want* him to? Talk about fake.

No thanks, I'll take the money.

 

[Altorin]

Perhaps not everyone is motivated by money? You ever think of that? Oh how I love it that bettering yourself always has to be in the financial sense. This is why nothig ever works, most people are obsessed with money/power. To keep on track, Anarchy yay, just for a laugh.

So what are they motivated by, stupidity? Money is just the physical form of the concept of a *reward*. There are people out there that enjoy hurting themselves for no reward--they're called masochists. Sure, there are rewards that aren't and can't be symbolized by money--love, admiration, self-respect . . . but how can your boss give you *those* on command?! Would you *want* him to? Talk about fake.

No thanks, I'll take the money.

masochist's rewards are sexual release.

 

[Altorin]

JMeganSnow

I think you really do need to put this one to bed

You've made your point abundantly clear to all those with an open ear to hear it. As for the rest, you would never convert them anyway.

you can sleep now

 

[fuzzypenguin]

Firstly, I object to the statement that socialism is cannibalism. Just gibberish.

You can object all you like, that doesn't make it less true. What is cannibalism? Killing a man and using his body to feed your hunger. Well, what difference does it make if instead of chopping up his physical body you just take his house, his savings, the clothes off his back, the food from his mouth and all his hopes and aspirations? You're still feeding off him like a parasite--a blood-sucker in all but the literal sense.

Secondly, Soviets were communists.

Communism, socialism, and fascism are all the same fundamental system with slightly different appearances. In all of them, the economy is centrally planned by the government.

Thirdly, Society as a whole means the well-being of everybody.

So, I ask again, how is "everybody's" well-being enhanced by being made to wait hours for a few scraps of bread, months for medical care, or a few minutes for the gas chamber? Or do these people just not count somehow?

Fourthly, what the Nazi's does not indicate what socialists do.

Fine, I'll restrict myself to talking about the Allende government in Chile, Fidel Castro's Cuba, North Korea, China, Britain, Canada, and Zimbabwe. Oh, and Hugo Chavez' Venezuela. Heck, you may as well include the rest of Europe and the U.S. in there, too, along with Mexico and the rest of Central and South America.

If you keep claiming "that's not socialism" you're going to run out of things that *are* socialism very, very quickly.

Finally, I don't like the baseless claim that the British need to wait a long time to get drugs or surgery.

Oh, I'm sorry, did I not provide enough examples for you? How about this one? [http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/british-patients-wait-longer-for-surgery-398522.html] Or this one [http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1019/p04s01-woeu.html]? This one [http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1502&status=article&id=299282509335931] is about the fundamentally similar Canadian system, which is facing the same problems. Here's another. [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/world/europe/21britain.html?_r=1&oref=slogin] And another about Canada. [http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/01/15/bc-patients.html] And I didn't even go looking for those, I just typed "British Health Care Wait" into Google.

P.S I don't see how capitalism does it any better.

Perhaps it doesn't--but it doesn't matter because I don't believe in any such mythical creature as "society as a whole" or it's equally mythical "good". I just believe in leaving individual men free to pursue such goods as they choose by their own judgment. The track record of free men has been fantastical beyond belief, but even if it weren't, I wouldn't see that as any justification for chains and slavery. Men are not cattle to be driven and yoked for *anybody's* purpose.

I live in Canada and I always hear these arguments about how we supposedly wait months and months to see doctors and its just not true. At any time I can call my doctor and set up an appointment for the next week and if I need any drugs I can take my prescription to my local Safeway, takes 45 mins tops. Now you may be thinking ?psh that?s just a check-up if you ever need any major surgery prepare to wait for months sucka!? well once again not true and I speak from personal experience (when I was ten my mom had a sever aneurism that only 10% of people survive, she was better within a month) not random articles on the internet.

ok back on topic capitalism is the way to go but some things need to be socialized or you would have a nation of illiterates.

 

[Phillosophic]

Perhaps not everyone is motivated by money? You ever think of that? Oh how I love it that bettering yourself always has to be in the financial sense. This is why nothig ever works, most people are obsessed with money/power. To keep on track, Anarchy yay, just for a laugh.

So what are they motivated by, stupidity? Money is just the physical form of the concept of a *reward*. There are people out there that enjoy hurting themselves for no reward--they're called masochists. Sure, there are rewards that aren't and can't be symbolized by money--love, admiration, self-respect . . . but how can your boss give you *those* on command?! Would you *want* him to? Talk about fake.

No thanks, I'll take the money.

masochist's rewards are sexual release.

I am not motivated by money or stupidity. There are plenty of other things to be rewarded by. I make enough to be comfortable, that is more than the majority of people in this world. I have no desire to make more money than that. I do voluntary work too, for no financial reward, God I must be stupid!

Oh & my boss is me & I reward myself in lots of ways, mainly drink.

 

[JMeganSnow]

There are alternatives though. In the U.K. you can either have public healthcare for free (the NHS) or you can pay to go privately. This means that everyone will get healthcare, but there is the capitalist option of actally paying for it if you can afford it.

Ha. No, you can pay for public healthcare (via taxes) and take advantage of it (which means dealing with all the other crap that comes with the screwed-up system), or you can pay for the public healthcare and ALSO pay for private healthcare out of your own pocket. Most people can't afford to pay twice for one service.

The education system in the U.S. works precisely the same way, and our education system looks pretty damn similar to the British healthcare system. Private schools that are incredibly expensive which most people can't afford. Public schools that increasingly suck (with a few sterling examples that become fewer every year) and are becoming propaganda machines for government groupthink and educational methods that are dubious at best.

I don't give a damn whether the system works "better" for ten million other people if my friends and family can't get treatment for love or money at the moment of truth. I don't own those people and they don't own me, so who the hell are they to dictate to me the conditions of *my* healthcare because they didn't want to have to take care of their own?

 

[JMeganSnow]

I am not motivated by money or stupidity. There are plenty of other things to be rewarded by. I make enough to be comfortable, that is more than the majority of people in this world. I have no desire to make more money than that. I do voluntary work too, for no financial reward, God I must be stupid!

So you'd voluntarily go to school for 16 years and work 18 hour days for *no additional money*? Yes, that is stupid. It's self-abuse. However, if this is what you want to do, in a free country, *you can do it*. No one will stop you. You just can't force *other* people who have actual self-respect to do the same at the point of a gun.

 

[lenin_117]

There are alternatives though. In the U.K. you can either have public healthcare for free (the NHS) or you can pay to go privately. This means that everyone will get healthcare, but there is the capitalist option of actally paying for it if you can afford it.

Ha. No, you can pay for public healthcare (via taxes) and take advantage of it (which means dealing with all the other crap that comes with the screwed-up system), or you can pay for the public healthcare and ALSO pay for private healthcare out of your own pocket. Most people can't afford to pay twice for one service.

The education system in the U.S. works precisely the same way, and our education system looks pretty damn similar to the British healthcare system. Private schools that are incredibly expensive which most people can't afford. Public schools that increasingly suck (with a few sterling examples that become fewer every year) and are becoming propaganda machines for government groupthink and educational methods that are dubious at best.

I don't give a damn whether the system works "better" for ten million other people if my friends and family can't get treatment for love or money at the moment of truth. I don't own those people and they don't own me, so who the hell are they to dictate to me the conditions of *my* healthcare because they didn't want to have to take care of their own?

I haven't heard a story in which socialised healthcare was a "screwed up system" (first person story) They all sound good so far. BTW, any people with a bad story about socialised medicine should come forward now. So far sounds like a good plan.

 

[Bowstring]

There are alternatives though. In the U.K. you can either have public healthcare for free (the NHS) or you can pay to go privately. This means that everyone will get healthcare, but there is the capitalist option of actally paying for it if you can afford it.

Ha. No, you can pay for public healthcare (via taxes) and take advantage of it (which means dealing with all the other crap that comes with the screwed-up system), or you can pay for the public healthcare and ALSO pay for private healthcare out of your own pocket. Most people can't afford to pay twice for one service.

The education system in the U.S. works precisely the same way, and our education system looks pretty damn similar to the British healthcare system. Private schools that are incredibly expensive which most people can't afford. Public schools that increasingly suck (with a few sterling examples that become fewer every year) and are becoming propaganda machines for government groupthink and educational methods that are dubious at best.

I don't give a damn whether the system works "better" for ten million other people if my friends and family can't get treatment for love or money at the moment of truth. I don't own those people and they don't own me, so who the hell are they to dictate to me the conditions of *my* healthcare because they didn't want to have to take care of their own?

Well fine, nothing is ever 'free' if you approach things like that. Of course we have to pay our taxes, but I still define the NHS as a 'free' service.

Our education system isn't actually that clear cut. We have public schols (actually private schools, usually boarding, cost ludicrous fees), private schools (the same thing, essentially), and we have state schools. State schools actually provide quality education, and give candidates equal opportunities without prejudice to their background. A lot of our country's politicians went to state school, including notable people like John Prescott.

There's very rarely any 'propaganda' among our school systems. At least, I can't really think of many examples. I came out of state school to be very open-minded, without the craving for oil and world domination.

Your last paragraph brings the argument to a very personal level, and I don't see what you're getting at. You can get your healthcare for love or money. Those other 10 million people are people's families and friends too, and if the majority benefit then I think that's the main priority.

 

[lenin_117]

I am not motivated by money or stupidity. There are plenty of other things to be rewarded by. I make enough to be comfortable, that is more than the majority of people in this world. I have no desire to make more money than that. I do voluntary work too, for no financial reward, God I must be stupid!

So you'd voluntarily go to school for 16 years and work 18 hour days for *no additional money*? Yes, that is stupid. It's self-abuse. However, if this is what you want to do, in a free country, *you can do it*. No one will stop you. You just can't force *other* people who have actual self-respect to do the same at the point of a gun.

What are you referring to? Who is forcing who at the point of a gun to go to school for 16 years, 18 hour days? What are you getting at?

 

[JMeganSnow]

I haven't heard a story in which socialised healthcare was a "screwed up system" (first person story) They all sound good so far. BTW, any people with a bad story about socialised medicine should come forward now. So far sounds like a good plan.

Did you *read* those news articles? How about doing some of your *own* research for once? And how is a "first person" story better than news articles?

Frankly, this is just willful ignorance. Heck, Medicare and Medicaid in the U.S. are screwed up and bankrupting us.

 

[Phillosophic]

I am not motivated by money or stupidity. There are plenty of other things to be rewarded by. I make enough to be comfortable, that is more than the majority of people in this world. I have no desire to make more money than that. I do voluntary work too, for no financial reward, God I must be stupid!

So you'd voluntarily go to school for 16 years and work 18 hour days for *no additional money*? Yes, that is stupid. It's self-abuse. However, if this is what you want to do, in a free country, *you can do it*. No one will stop you. You just can't force *other* people who have actual self-respect to do the same at the point of a gun.

I wouldn't call it stupid, differences of opinion is what I would call it. What works for you doesn't work for me. Lots of people who have no education would definatley volunteer to go to school. Working an 18 hour day full stop is daft. I value time & helping others over money every time. Like I said, enough to get by. Guess I am just lucky that I choose what to do with my time. How exactly is it self abuse? You can force pretty much anyone to do anything if you wave a gun in their face but that has nothing at all to do with this, does it?

 

[Altorin]

I live in Canada and I always hear these arguments about how we supposedly wait months and months to see doctors and its just not true. At any time I can call my doctor and set up an appointment for the next week and if I need any drugs I can take my prescription to my local Safeway, takes 45 mins tops. Now you may be thinking ?psh that?s just a check-up if you ever need any major surgery prepare to wait for months sucka!? well once again not true and I speak from personal experience (when I was ten my mom had a sever aneurism that only 10% of people survive, she was better within a month) not random articles on the internet.

ok back on topic capitalism is the way to go but some things need to be socialized or you would have a nation of illiterates.

tell that to my sister who had to wait 3 months for hernia surgery.

It's not the "I feel sick give me medicine" medical that takes time, it's the "I need a new knee or I can't work" medical that takes time.