Poll: Confederate Flag: Hate symbol, symbol of pride, heritage, historical meaning, or other?
- Thread starter RooftopAssassin
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Let me put it this way, some of my ancestors were German, but I couldn't get away with wearing a swastika by saying that it was part of my heritige.
Like the Confederate flag, the Swastika's origins are not necessarily related to what we think of when we see one, but that's not the point. These symbols are tied to very painful moments of our history, and people need to understand that "heritage" doesn't justify the display of these symbols. It could be that somewhere out there there are people with the flag who genuinely want to view it as a symbol of their heritage, but most of us won't view it that way, and considering the memories it brings up, I think it's one symbol of heritage that is best left to rest.
Like the Confederate flag, the Swastika's origins are not necessarily related to what we think of when we see one, but that's not the point. These symbols are tied to very painful moments of our history, and people need to understand that "heritage" doesn't justify the display of these symbols. It could be that somewhere out there there are people with the flag who genuinely want to view it as a symbol of their heritage, but most of us won't view it that way, and considering the memories it brings up, I think it's one symbol of heritage that is best left to rest.
I love you. I love this post. I couldn't explain it like this in my OP, because of my exhaustion.Kpt._Rob said:
You're wrong on both counts.enzilewulf said:
"also it shouldn't be shown in public for one reason. That was a period of hate and bloodshed for the fellow American."
By that reasoning, no war America fought in should ever be mentioned because it was a time of bloodshed for Americans.
"just don't use it publicly, because no matter what you mean by it, it only brings hate and bad times."
If that were true, no one would want to display the flag & there'd be no controversy. It does not "only bring hate". I want to keep this short, so I'll just say this: If it's only hateful, why was it put on the General Lee, and why was a show so popular if it had a symbol that only meant hate & sorrow so prominently placed in it?
I don't know if you're over generalizing or just didn't make your thought specific enough, but as it is, it's just wrong.
I completely understand why people are offended by the stars and bars but after having a few friends from the south they really do see themselves as separate from Northerners. They really don't have a symbol that identifies them as a Southerner quite as well as the Confederate flag.
The South is the South. If you ever go there you'll realize in many different ways it is in no way like the North. In our modern eyes it has been usurped by a bunch of racist pricks but it has far more to do with this idea of the South being powerful and commanding its own destiny. The Confederacy wasn't necessarily racist, however, we'd judge most Victorian ideas of race as shockingly racist today. States rights was the biggest issue for the foundation of the Confederacy and it's sad that propaganda used long ago to keep the Northern public in support of the war, creating another war for freedom, is still considered fact.
OT: Sorry, I tend to rant on the whole Confederacy issue since my ancestors fought for the South and I hate that a bunch of racist pricks took a symbol men died for and turned into a symbol of hatred. I believe in most uses it is just a symbol of a unique Southern identity and pride in that. I can say, however, without a doubt, if you see someone in white bed sheets waving the Stars and Bars, he's probably using it as a symbol of hatred and bland intolerance.
OT: Sorry, I tend to rant on the whole Confederacy issue since my ancestors fought for the South and I hate that a bunch of racist pricks took a symbol men died for and turned into a symbol of hatred. I believe in most uses it is just a symbol of a unique Southern identity and pride in that. I can say, however, without a doubt, if you see someone in white bed sheets waving the Stars and Bars, he's probably using it as a symbol of hatred and bland intolerance.
I think the difference here is that it was a time when Americans were viciously fighting one another, rather than being united against an outside enemy. I'm not I agreeing that the flag shouldn't be shown in public, people can raise whatever hell flag they want, that's their right, but I could see how the flavor of the memories could be a little bit more bitter.goldenheart323 said:
To the original question: when I see a Confederate flag in today's context in mostly just makes me shake my head and sigh, sort of as a "really? Are we really not done with this yet?". And I live in state that was considered part of the North (though still mostly a farming community) and I've seen it here driving through the country and on people's trucks. It basically just inspires tiredness when I see it.
I remember Raw William Johnson had something to say about this, but I can't find the video. Oh and the answer is "Historic Racism".
Sort of. It was the flag that the Confederate States of America (Aka: the South) took as their symbol after their secession (1860-1861), or at least the one most commonly remembered. It can be a...touchy topic depending on who you're asking.rokkolpo said:
*Tips hat* Not a problem. Spread the knowledge around I say...and the drinks. Those too.rokkolpo said:
It leads people to believe that I am somehow a Nazi even though having a German flag and having a NSRG or "Third Reich" flag are two very different things. Basically, you'd have to ask the people who call me a Nazi.GBlair88 said:
This. Ninja'd. Although some people like the flag SOLELY because it pretty much is the flag of white supremacy, but not all of them do.blalien said:
Ok, I've recently had a discussion about this, so, throwing caution to the wind, I'm going to write the outcome of that convo without reading many of the other posts here.
First, the only problem people have with it is the racist connotation.
As I understand it, the confederacy was not an evil organization of inhuman slave drivers (the union was just about as racist for a long time). The only reason slavery was acceptable was because it made people heaps of money, in the south that is. Slavery didn't work as well in the north because there was little farm land, and the other major consumers of labor needed much more skilled workers than slaves could provide. You can bet your ass that if the entire east coast was arable, slavery would've been morally acceptable for much longer. Actually, slavery isn't what the war was even fought over. I remember a much greater impetus for war being the new levy that was proposed to support northern textile production (that would've hurt the southern farm trade). It's all about money, really.
So, from a historical standpoint, the flag as a symbol of slavery doesn't really hold up -- but you wouldn't expect your typical, in-bred white trash to know that. They say it's all about "southern pride," but that's just because they're not very articulate. They mean it represents ignorant, fundamentalist, right-wing ideology. If they happen to be smart enough to actually use those words, they'll say it's to remember the roots they come from and stay true to the values and ideas of their forefathers, but this is sugar coating the truth. They're just clinging to a past they barely understand because they're unhappy with the state of society today.
That last bit's more a comment on fundamentalists and conservatives in general than about flag-bearers.
Edit: Oh, and I forgot about the historical perspective thing, mostly because it's so preposterous. When was the last time you saw a tee-shirt with a relief of the Articles of confederation on it? Or of any of the original American flags on it? No one gives a shit about history, except history teachers, so why would you believe that someone who displays no other interest in the study of the past is wearing something or pinning shit to his wall because of the "sensation of historical impact" it has on him? Are you freaking kidding me?
First, the only problem people have with it is the racist connotation.
As I understand it, the confederacy was not an evil organization of inhuman slave drivers (the union was just about as racist for a long time). The only reason slavery was acceptable was because it made people heaps of money, in the south that is. Slavery didn't work as well in the north because there was little farm land, and the other major consumers of labor needed much more skilled workers than slaves could provide. You can bet your ass that if the entire east coast was arable, slavery would've been morally acceptable for much longer. Actually, slavery isn't what the war was even fought over. I remember a much greater impetus for war being the new levy that was proposed to support northern textile production (that would've hurt the southern farm trade). It's all about money, really.
So, from a historical standpoint, the flag as a symbol of slavery doesn't really hold up -- but you wouldn't expect your typical, in-bred white trash to know that. They say it's all about "southern pride," but that's just because they're not very articulate. They mean it represents ignorant, fundamentalist, right-wing ideology. If they happen to be smart enough to actually use those words, they'll say it's to remember the roots they come from and stay true to the values and ideas of their forefathers, but this is sugar coating the truth. They're just clinging to a past they barely understand because they're unhappy with the state of society today.
That last bit's more a comment on fundamentalists and conservatives in general than about flag-bearers.
Edit: Oh, and I forgot about the historical perspective thing, mostly because it's so preposterous. When was the last time you saw a tee-shirt with a relief of the Articles of confederation on it? Or of any of the original American flags on it? No one gives a shit about history, except history teachers, so why would you believe that someone who displays no other interest in the study of the past is wearing something or pinning shit to his wall because of the "sensation of historical impact" it has on him? Are you freaking kidding me?
The odd thing I find is that living in Texas, if you get caught DEAD with a confederate flag, they are going to beat you and drag you through the streets in a good ol' fashion lynching. Even today. Yet back with I lived in Michigan, it wasn't all that uncommon to see a confederate flag hung right next to a US flag, and no one batted an eye.
I see it as a part of our history. An awful, bloody part of my history that we should never forget and never repeat. I just find it interesting that in the south here, it's utterly despised, and back up north accepted.
I see it as a part of our history. An awful, bloody part of my history that we should never forget and never repeat. I just find it interesting that in the south here, it's utterly despised, and back up north accepted.