Poll: Dark Souls: Time to Put Up or Shut Up.

[nexus]

hmm hmm hmm

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Obviously you didn't get what I was trying to convey. Neither of us are getting anywhere, so I'll leave it at agree to disagree.

s69-5 has a fit when people paraphrase him. He'll imply in 20 different ways that you're an asshole, but if he doesn't actually use the word "asshole" he'll raise hell if you attribute it to him. This is a guy who prevaricated about the difference between insulting a large body of people and one of those people specifically. You are not going to reach common cause on this issue.

For what it's worth, I think he sincerely believes he hasn't done anything wrong, and that anyone reading his posts as aggressive and commenting on them as such are being needlessly harsh with him.

s69-5 if you're reading this...and you probably are for all that you continually state that you're done with the topic...when people paraphrase you they are not necessarily looking to "put words into your mouth". They are attempting to distill for you how the essence of your communication comes across. It's absolutely no different than you suggesting someone is "being a green eyed monster". You see an attitude in a post, and use a term you think best describes their behavior. If you believe you are being mischaracterized, you can certainly express that. However, throwing an accusatory tantrum at Exius and raging about him "stooping low" for "putting words in your mouth" does not exactly put the lie to his statement that you are being unnecessarily aggressive.

A paraphrase does not need to accompany a direct quotation, but when this is so, the paraphrase typically serves to put the source's statement into perspective or to clarify the context in which it appeared. A paraphrase is typically more detailed than a summary. One should add the source at the end of the sentence, for example: When the light was red trains could not go (Wikipedia).

Paraphrase may attempt to preserve the essential meaning of the material being paraphrased. Thus, the (intentional or otherwise) reinterpretation of a source to infer a meaning that is not explicitly evident in the source itself qualifies as "original research," and not as paraphrase.

As we are writing on the internet, and not speaking face to face, we are not always able to convey our attitudes with 100% accuracy. Whether it was your intention to do so or not, some of your writings on the topic struck the people reading them as conveying certain unsavory attitudes. That is why they paraphrased you and "put words into your mouth".

People will read the implications of what you write.

When you write "You need to look in that proverbial mirror you are trying to peddle, glass houses being what they are.", you are accusing me of being a hypocrite. When I write that "We have you using the terms "dumbed down", "streamlining for the masses", "entitled", "tantrum" and "silly" to describe your opponents positions. Your general reasoning is quite salient, but you can never really resist getting in a little dig, throwing out a pissy little remark to make it clear how little you think of the people who disagree with you." I am accusing you of the same.

When you mine your own post history to give us two posts containing that tirade of insults towards people who disagree with you and want an easy mode in Dark Souls, you imply that you believe these people are less than you. If I told you "You'd like this movie, it's dumbed down and streamlined for the masses" you would not see that as a sign of respect, would you? Right? Is that fair? So when you then put these posts up as Exhibit A and speak the equivalent of "how dare you call me an elitist, look at these posts, sir", they do nothing but reinforce the impression people had.

TLDR - If people are mischaracterizing you on an internet forum based on things you have written, the responsibility lies as much with you as with them. Especially when you are feeding them evidence to support their suspicions, and then attacking them verbally when they become suspicious. You might be the best guy in the world, I have no idea. Even as we speak you might be pulling kittens out of a burning warehouse. All we will ever have of each other is what we write in this space. If you don't want to be characterized as aggressive or elitist, the best place to start is choosing your words more carefully. Screaming at people after the fact isn't going to make them more well disposed towards you, or improve the level of communication.

 

[Rastien]

If more people play the game how is this bad? it means there are more people you can talk to about it!

Also as some people are elitist and like the fact they completed the game in it's original difficulty heres my thoughts...

Person X completed DS on Easy

Person Y completed DS normally

Person X omg you completed DS on normal! that's amazing

Person Y yes i did thank you for stroking my enormous neck beard ego lesser being.

But yeah seriously i can't see an issue with it, DS is still DS for those who loved it, opening it up to a wider audience is not a bad thing.

It gives you more bragging rights! i mean the people who played it on easy now know exactly what you are talking about and can appreciate you beating Smogh and Ornstien on a higher difficulty even more.

 

[NooNameLeft]

This debate can be settled with 3 simple steps:

1. I want\don't want an easy mode in Dark Souls.
2. I'm not going to care because I have the option to play whatever mode I want.
3. Everyone's happy!

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Snipped for brevity.

Yes, I figured as such. I could tell neither of us were going to get anywhere with each other, so I left it off where I did. I figured we had better things to do than childishly bicker on the internet.

If more people play the game how is this bad? it means there are more people you can talk to about it!

I don't personally see it as bad, I see that as good. It means the developers are earning more money and more incentive to make another entry in the series so we all can have some more delicious Souls.

 

[Brainwreck]

REBOOT DARKSOULS
DAY ONE DLC
AUCTION SHOP
MORE CLEAVAGE
WHAT IS CHARACTER
FUCK DA LORE
PRISCILLA SHOT FIRST

Spoiler: PROBLEM?

Spoiler: They'll eat it right up

[small]for the record that was not really serious and I don't have strong opinions on the matter either way[/small]

 

[Vegosiux]

I am somehow feeling this nefarious desire to hop over to the mod usergroup and say "Hey guys, I think it'd be a good idea to do some checking for who's abusing smurf accounts around here". But on the other hand, I'm half-inclined to file another entry under my "Not clever" column, and move on.

 

[Rastien]

If more people play the game how is this bad? it means there are more people you can talk to about it!

Also as some people are elitist and like the fact they completed the game in it's original difficulty heres my thoughts...

Person X completed DS on Easy

Person Y completed DS normally

Person X omg you completed DS on normal! that's amazing

Person Y yes i did thank you for stroking my enormous neck beard ego lesser being.

But yeah seriously i can't see an issue with it, DS is still DS for those who loved it, opening it up to a wider audience is not a bad thing.

It gives you more bragging rights! i mean the people who played it on easy now know exactly what you are talking about and can appreciate you beating Smogh and Ornstien on a higher difficulty even more.

So the more people listen to justin biber the more you like him the more popular something is the better it is in your eyes?

Yeah more means better better ramp those damage numbers up to 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 because thats more and way cooler right????????????????????

Finally someone understands! thank you for putting into context for everyone you sir are genius ^^

 

[Piorn]

As far as I see it, there would be 3 ways they could implement an easymode:

1.) Split the entire community in two, and only allow summons and invasions on the same difficulty, effectively killing the already small active community.

2.) Throw everyone together and have easymoders regularly curb-stomped by professionals, defeating the point of an easymode.

3.) Buff easymoders, completely ruining the competitive nature of online play, and forcing everyone to use easmode to be competitive.


If anyone else has an idea, feel free to reply.

 

[TonyGun]

I'll explain why I think DS is not a 'good' game.

Before I do, I'll start listing the positives to put my view in context: It's got a fantastic atmosphere, quality visuals and concepts inspired from other great games, books, and films, and the fighting is complex, deep, and challenging. If that's all you've read so far, then by definition DS is a very good game.

However, what surrounds the core of DS's gameplay are the game maker's version Emperor's New Clothes: The hidden convents, spells, and gear. For the people who don't know they are, these are majority of the most powerful items and empowerments can only be acquired if you go through the game in a specific order. And when I say a specific order, I mean that there is only one or two way of playing through this game to get it.

I know, some people will say that is precisely why DS is great - that there are hidden secrets for players to explore. But this rational is actually false. The idea of exploration is there, but it's the exact opposite in practice. Let me give you an example without spoilers: I made a game, and in this game, I created a powerful ring, and you can only get it if these conditions are met: 1) You've talked to an old lady NPC hidden underneath a bridge that is very hard to land on, 2) You have to talk to her 3 times before completing the 5th mission, 3) You having a morality rating of -120 and 4) You have killed her daughter with a LVL2 Axe of Lolcat.

The reason why the above is not honest exploration is that people who defend DS fail to add a very critical aspect to gaming these days: people talk when they're not playing games. In other words, no matter how deep you bury an item, someone somewhere will eventually find it and post it on the internet for everyone to see. It would be ok if it were an easter egg, and the item is not that powerful. But in DS, these are items are very much THE most vital items to be even marginally successful, especially in a game where PvP is at its core.

So what happens is that while the visuals, the gameplay are great, you have to spend most of your time actually NOT enjoying them and metagame the entire thing. A class called 'Wanderer' is longer chosen because you want to role-play a lone-wolf character, but because you've spent a lot of time prior to playing it by reading the wikis and forums about its build. Yes, you can do that with other games too, but other games are still accessible even if you decide to go pure. But the way DS is structured - by placing key items so buried that is it impractical for even the most dedicated players to discover by themself, given that they constantly face 12-year olds with OP gear they've acquire from wikis and YouTube - it oversteps the fourth wall to the point that all the meaning 'weapons' and 'gear' and 'role play' are meaningless. People don't choose a specific sword or a spell because it suits their fantasy, they choose them only for their utility. Good games are usually balanced between wanting to look good (for role-playing, because that's what made you play it in the first place, ie; you wanted to be a stealth archer within the game's world) and utility (ie, you want to perform the best in actual gameplay), but DS completely makes you toss away the former after a certain point.

Now, in the example with the old lady under the bridge, if I were to reward (and maybe punish) players with items that eventually are powerful for any given scenario, then this become meaningful decision making for players, and therefore the exploration becomes actually meaningful. You are not required to read wikis to find out what you're missing because you'll aways get some feedback.

DS has great gameplay, but it has a few faulty notion of the word 'challenge' that makes the game obnoxious, tricks players into a false sense of it, and takes away initial the point of attraction. I would call it a somewhat interesting but unintended social experiment, where the 'Dark' part of the game is actually encouraging players to be at their darkest to themselves.

 

[Vuliev]

Plus, I hear companies like to make money .. I know, I know, they should do it out of love and feed their children on the praise of the players. How rude of them to want actually payment .. And if offering an easy mode makes them more money then go for it.

You do realize that From Software made an asston on the Souls games, right? Seriously, I'm sick and tired of people spouting this "oh well they'll make money from easy mode that means they should do it," because it's fucking bullshit. For Christ's sake, not everything has to be, or even should be, about the money. Dark Souls is one of the few recent, relatively large-budget, games that has significant artistic value. You know what's an integral part of that value? The difficulty. From Software designed the game around that intention of difficulty, and there is no way you could do an "easy mode" without having to radically alter the structure of the game.

The difficulty forces you to learn patience, awareness, attention to detail, and manual dexterity. That forced learning becomes part of the atmosphere. Without that critical part of the atmosphere, the game is simply a large, pretty box to play in, with only a poorly-told story to keep you going.

If Dark Souls II is developed with variable difficulty in mind, then I won't have a problem with it having an "easy" mode. Until then, is it really so much to ask that I can play a game that hasn't been altered to cater to an audience it wasn't meant for? Or that, at the very least, the people that want an easy mode so damn badly either (a) pick up the game as is and discover that it's not as hard as people make it sound, or (b) find some mods to make it easier?

 

[ServebotFrank]

I'll explain why I think DS is not a 'good' game.

Before I do, I'll start listing the positives to put my view in context: It's got a fantastic atmosphere, quality visuals and concepts inspired from other great games, books, and films, and the fighting is complex, deep, and challenging. If that's all you've read so far, then by definition DS is a very good game.

However, what surrounds the core of DS's gameplay are the game maker's version Emperor's New Clothes: The hidden convents, spells, and gear. For the people who don't know they are, these are majority of the most powerful items and empowerments can only be acquired if you go through the game in a specific order. And when I say a specific order, I mean that there is only one or two way of playing through this game to get it.

I know, some people will say that is precisely why DS is great - that there are hidden secrets for players to explore. But this rational is actually false. The idea of exploration is there, but it's the exact opposite in practice. Let me give you an example without spoilers: I made a game, and in this game, I created a powerful ring, and you can only get it if these conditions are met: 1) You've talked to an old lady NPC hidden underneath a bridge that is very hard to land on, 2) You have to talk to her 3 times before completing the 5th mission, 3) You having a morality rating of -120 and 4) You have killed her daughter with a LVL2 Axe of Lolcat.

The reason why the above is not honest exploration is that people who defend DS fail to add a very critical aspect to gaming these days: people talk when they're not playing games. In other words, no matter how deep you bury an item, someone somewhere will eventually find it and post it on the internet for everyone to see. It would be ok if it were an easter egg, and the item is not that powerful. But in DS, these are items are very much THE most vital items to be even marginally successful, especially in a game where PvP is at its core.

So what happens is that while the visuals, the gameplay are great, you have to spend most of your time actually NOT enjoying them and metagame the entire thing. A class called 'Wanderer' is longer chosen because you want to role-play a lone-wolf character, but because you've spent a lot of time prior to playing it by reading the wikis and forums about its build. Yes, you can do that with other games too, but other games are still accessible even if you decide to go pure. But the way DS is structured - by placing key items so buried that is it impractical for even the most dedicated players to discover by themself, given that they constantly face 12-year olds with OP gear they've acquire from wikis and YouTube - it oversteps the fourth wall to the point that all the meaning 'weapons' and 'gear' and 'role play' are meaningless. People don't choose a specific sword or a spell because it suits their fantasy, they choose them only for their utility. Good games are usually balanced between wanting to look good (for role-playing, because that's what made you play it in the first place, ie; you wanted to be a stealth archer within the game's world) and utility (ie, you want to perform the best in actual gameplay), but DS completely makes you toss away the former after a certain point.

Now, in the example with the old lady under the bridge, if I were to reward (and maybe punish) players with items that eventually are powerful for any given scenario, then this become meaningful decision making for players, and therefore the exploration becomes actually meaningful. You are not required to read wikis to find out what you're missing because you'll aways get some feedback.

DS has great gameplay, but it has a few faulty notion of the word 'challenge' that makes the game obnoxious, tricks players into a false sense of it, and takes away initial the point of attraction. I would call it a somewhat interesting but unintended social experiment, where the 'Dark' part of the game is actually encouraging players to be at their darkest to themselves.

YAY NECRO THREAD!

Not sure what you mean by that. The only real secrets I had to look up on the internet to find out about was how to join the Darkwraith covenant (which just involves beating one of the end game bosses before the point in the story where you are required to fight them) and how to find Quelaana (Which involved just being a high level pyromancer.) I'm really not sure where you're coming from as you can get almost every item in the game no matter what order you do everything in as the game is fairly linear up until you get the LordVessel. The only things that are outright broken in Dark Souls are all the dark magic spells which you get from the DLC. I've ran into people who wiped the floor with me because they just have stupidly high magic damage and use Dark magic which you can only block if you have the DLC. Most magic though can be acquired through a sidequest which is easy to do as long you don't kill NPCs needlessly. That's the only thing that can lock you out of stuff.

OT: Personally I think Epicnamebro said it best. Most people play Dark Souls for the challenge and if you add an easy mode, you risk tearing apart the PVP community (Piorn a few posts up said it best) and reducing the game to a generic dungeon crawler with little challenge. I just beat Artorias after multiple tries, a damn fun fight which would've been ruined if I had been playing on easy mode. The only boss I could ever see myself using easy mode on is Ornstein and Smough.

Besides, Dark Souls is not a very hard game. It's unforgiving but it's certainly not the hardest game ever. I hardly ran into trouble until Ornstein and Smough which is the midpoint of the game and then had a pretty easy time again until Bed of Chaos.

 

[TonyGun]

ServebotFrank:

Did you know about things like the Darkwood Grain Ring, Sunlight Blade, Gwyndolin's Armor, Priscilla's Dagger, getting max number of Titanite Chunks etc, as well as the requirements to join specific convenants all by yourself? I'm not going to name every example, but it's a given that there are just too many things in this game that a player won't be able to know how get them without resorting to either a) an unrealistic amount of replays or b) simply look it up on the internet. And these items are not some minor trinkets, they are one of the best gear and items of the game. Yes, I support the principle of 'player invests more time = player gets more rewards' of which the defenders of the game abide by, but this type of investment eventually leads to severe metagaming because exceedingly few individuals on this planet have the time and dedication to 'discover' these things all by themselves if the info is already out there.

And this the point I want to make: if the game is structured in such a way that you are spending too much time gathering info outside the game, then it reduces the significance of the world of the game -- one that was created by combining the art direction, story, writing, music, character and gear designs, gameplay -- that drew you in the first place. In Dark Souls, you weld a giant axe not because it fits your character or like the way it looks because the designer made it that way, you weld it because of its stats. You killed Gwynevere not because you're playing a role that fits that action, you killed her because you need a certain item. That's not really a dark, convincing atmosphere, is it?

I don't believe this game should have an easy mode, and I do like the idea of severe consequences. But it just wasn't done right, or at least it was executed in a way that took a big chunk of the immersion away.

 

[ServebotFrank]

ServebotFrank:

Did you know about things like the Darkwood Grain Ring, Sunlight Blade, Gwyndolin's Armor, Priscilla's Dagger, getting max number of Titanite Chunks etc, as well as the requirements to join specific convenants all by yourself? I'm not going to name every example, but it's a given that there are just too many things in this game that a player won't be able to know how get them without resorting to either a) an unrealistic amount of replays or b) simply look it up on the internet. And these items are not some minor trinkets, they are one of the best gear and items of the game. Yes, I support the principle of 'player invests more time = player gets more rewards' of which the defenders of the game abide by, but this type of investment eventually leads to severe metagaming because exceedingly few individuals on this planet have the time and dedication to 'discover' these things all by themselves if the info is already out there.

And this the point I want to make: if the game is structured in such a way that you are spending too much time gathering info outside the game, then it reduces the significance of the world of the game -- one that was created by combining the art direction, story, writing, music, character and gear designs, gameplay -- that drew you in the first place. In Dark Souls, you weld a giant axe not because it fits your character or like the way it looks because the designer made it that way, you weld it because of its stats. You killed Gwynevere not because you're playing a role that fits that action, you killed her because you need a certain item. That's not really a dark, convincing atmosphere, is it?

I don't believe this game should have an easy mode, and I do like the idea of severe consequences. But it just wasn't done right, or at least it was executed in a way that took a big chunk of the immersion away.

1. Actually I got the majority of those things by myself, the only one I didn't know about was the Darkwood Grain Ring. Also you don't need to kill Gwynevere in order to get those items by the way though it is certainly the quickest way but also leaves you open to invasions by Darkmoon players. You can equip a ring from the Catacombs and it allows you to fight Gwyndolin/join the covenant. I found that little tidbit myself because I had the ring equiped while I made a rest stop before going to fight Seath.

2. Actually you wield a giant axe because of your playstyle. I personally don't use them because they're too slow to use effectively in PVP, I just use a Silver Knight Sword buffed up with the Crystal Sword enhancement. Some of the most powerful weapons in the game require a fucking absurd amount of strength to use.

3. I seriously only used the internet for the location of the Darkwraith covenant.

4. Most of the weapons you mentioned have huge drawbacks to using them. Giant Axes are slow, Sunlight Blade requires a lot of Faith in order to use, Priscella's Dagger...Not sure, I never used it and didn't even know it was a powerful weapon, interesting.

5. The majority of the items can be found with a small amount of exploration. None of the items REQUIRE you to do something drastic with the exception of the Sunlight Blade which locks you out of the Darkmoon Covenant. If you piss off the forest hunters for the Darkwood Grain Ring for example you can just go request Absolution from Oswald at the First Bell of Awakening; he's in the game for a reason.

 

[Judgement101]

If a game doesn't look fun to you due to difficulty, DON'T BUY IT! That's it. Don't complain to the devs, don't post on the internet, don't do anything. Just avoid the game, are people really shouldn't have this undeserved sense of entitlement.

 

[J Tyran]

Never played the series, not into JRPGs at all. The game has found its own audience though and the fans seem to like it as it is, if they change it in an attempt to increase its appeal they risk losing the audience it had and not gaining a new one because people might believe its the same. The game wouldn't really be the same anyway, imagine the next Witcher having automatic rifles in or something. It completely changes the aesthetics and design of the game. Unless the devs can be creative, usually changing difficulty is stat bending or giving NPCs cheats. To give it a real easy mode would be very difficult without changing the tone of the game.

As for the whole Dark Souls is elitist thing, no its not elitist to like a challenging game at all. Some of the players are elitist though, you do not have to go far in Dark Souls threads to see "I do not want noobs in my Dark Souls because I am uber because I play it and other people cannot be uber by playing it on easy mode" posts

 

[NightmareExpress]

Don't really care.
But I think a nice, thick, instruction book could do nicely.
So if you suffer from the dumb, and have some semblance of literacy but are too lazy for the internet, you can just crack it open and figure out what you need. It could be called "x Souls game for dummies".

Wow. Typing that took me back to the days where the strategy guide for Earthbound was included with the game and certain RPGs actually came with books/encyclopedias for instructions.