Poll: Dark Souls: Time to Put Up or Shut Up.

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Joccaren

Elite Member
Mar 29, 2011
2,601
3
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If there's demand for it, yes. If it would seriously impact your fun that much, you have problems. Its not the game's problem, its yours. If an OPTION MODE YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY existing ruins your fun... I don't know what to say. Easy mode exists in 90% of the games I play. I never touch it because its just a cakewalk that makes me yawn. Does its existence ruin my experience? No. Why should it be different for Dark Souls?
And really, from the sounds of things Dark Souls would have more of a "Tutorial Mode" and a "Figure it out for yourself" mode, for which you would play the figure it out for yourself mode if you wanted to figure shit out for yourself.
An optional mode does nothing. If it ends up being said that it'll majorly impact design for the normal difficulty too, then sure, complain, but don't complain about the easy mode, complain about the changes they'll make to the hard mode. Its not the easy mode that is the problem.
 

Elfgore

Your friendly local nihilist
Legacy
Dec 6, 2010
5,655
24
13
I voted yes an easy mode should be added. You deny it being elitism, but that is exactly what it is. You have an all exclusive "tough gamer" only club and the idea of a couple people who play games for an easy fun challenge are trying to infiltrate it. Having an easy mode will not effect you ever. Just fucking ignoring it. Maybe people want to play dark souls for a story, don't know if it has one because I fit into the easy gaming club. I will not buy Dark Souls 2 because I have no interest in it. But for the love of god get off your high horse and let someone else enjoy a turn.

In conclusion it is elitism and you try to hide it. It is not entitltment, it is someone who doesn't want a challenge put wants to enjoy the world of Dark Souls.
 

Toxic Sniper

New member
Mar 13, 2013
143
0
0
TonyGun said:
I'll explain why I think DS is not a 'good' game.

Before I do, I'll start listing the positives to put my view in context: It's got a fantastic atmosphere, quality visuals and concepts inspired from other great games, books, and films, and the fighting is complex, deep, and challenging. If that's all you've read so far, then by definition DS is a very good game.

However, what surrounds the core of DS's gameplay are the game maker's version Emperor's New Clothes: The hidden convents, spells, and gear. For the people who don't know they are, these are majority of the most powerful items and empowerments can only be acquired if you go through the game in a specific order. And when I say a specific order, I mean that there is only one or two way of playing through this game to get it.

I know, some people will say that is precisely why DS is great - that there are hidden secrets for players to explore. But this rational is actually false. The idea of exploration is there, but it's the exact opposite in practice. Let me give you an example without spoilers: I made a game, and in this game, I created a powerful ring, and you can only get it if these conditions are met: 1) You've talked to an old lady NPC hidden underneath a bridge that is very hard to land on, 2) You have to talk to her 3 times before completing the 5th mission, 3) You having a morality rating of -120 and 4) You have killed her daughter with a LVL2 Axe of Lolcat.

The reason why the above is not honest exploration is that people who defend DS fail to add a very critical aspect to gaming these days: people talk when they're not playing games. In other words, no matter how deep you bury an item, someone somewhere will eventually find it and post it on the internet for everyone to see. It would be ok if it were an easter egg, and the item is not that powerful. But in DS, these are items are very much THE most vital items to be even marginally successful, especially in a game where PvP is at its core.

So what happens is that while the visuals, the gameplay are great, you have to spend most of your time actually NOT enjoying them and metagame the entire thing. A class called 'Wanderer' is longer chosen because you want to role-play a lone-wolf character, but because you've spent a lot of time prior to playing it by reading the wikis and forums about its build. Yes, you can do that with other games too, but other games are still accessible even if you decide to go pure. But the way DS is structured - by placing key items so buried that is it impractical for even the most dedicated players to discover by themself, given that they constantly face 12-year olds with OP gear they've acquire from wikis and YouTube - it oversteps the fourth wall to the point that all the meaning 'weapons' and 'gear' and 'role play' are meaningless. People don't choose a specific sword or a spell because it suits their fantasy, they choose them only for their utility. Good games are usually balanced between wanting to look good (for role-playing, because that's what made you play it in the first place, ie; you wanted to be a stealth archer within the game's world) and utility (ie, you want to perform the best in actual gameplay), but DS completely makes you toss away the former after a certain point.

Now, in the example with the old lady under the bridge, if I were to reward (and maybe punish) players with items that eventually are powerful for any given scenario, then this become meaningful decision making for players, and therefore the exploration becomes actually meaningful. You are not required to read wikis to find out what you're missing because you'll aways get some feedback.

DS has great gameplay, but it has a few faulty notion of the word 'challenge' that makes the game obnoxious, tricks players into a false sense of it, and takes away initial the point of attraction. I would call it a somewhat interesting but unintended social experiment, where the 'Dark' part of the game is actually encouraging players to be at their darkest to themselves.
So Dark Souls is not a good game because people look up online guides to spoil it for themeselves. Got it.

My first playthrough of Dark Souls was done without a guide. My character once I finally finished was level 123 and was horribly optimized (I spent four points on Resistance before I realized that it wasn't doing jack). I spent half the game in the Way of the White Covenant, joined the Forest Hunters, and did not see any other Covenants. I was not able to complete the quests for Siegmeyer, Solaire, Logan, etc. I accidentally hit Frampt and I never even met Kaathe. I had to summon Solaire for Ornstein and Smough and the two Gargoyles. I got cursed twice. My weapon used to kill Gwyn was a +2 Lightning Halberd. I never saw the Great Hollow or the Painted World, although I did find the way back to the Undead Asylum.

It was one of my best experiences playing a game ever. I remember when I entered the room with Andre and decided to run into the basement, only to fat-roll out of a lightning bolt's path and wonder what on Earth had shot at me. I remember narrowly beating the Gaping Dragon on my first try, picking up his axe, and deciding that my long-term goal would be to wield it (I eventually did wield it two-handed, although I used the Halberd against Gwyn because his attacks were so fast). I remember laughing my ass off when a Mimic ate me.

Why do players feel that they need to know everything? Why do they want to ruin the mystery? The entire appeal of Dark Souls is that it's obscure at first and opens up as you play more of it. It's the fun of discovery. When I started the game, I had no idea how to play; by the end, I felt like I knew each place of the game front and back, only to be surprised by how much I had missed on New Game +. I remember when a friend told me, "Have you seen the Painted World?" and then telling me about some Mew truck-style setup to find a whole new level. And it worked!

Nowaday, I enjoy Dark Souls because I know so much about it. It's like fitting into an old glove. But I don't enjoy it because I read the information about every place on a wiki, I enjoy it because I know the environments and enemies and weapons from experience. One of the reasons why the dlc content was so awesome was that we suddenly had another place full of mysteries and secrets. My brother was searching the Abyss for Dark Bead and couldn't find it; I'm still not sure where Gough's crest is. It brings the emotions I enjoyed when I started playing Dark Souls.

Calling Dark Souls a bad game just because you know where everything is located is like calling a story-based RPG bad because you already looked at all the storyline and character arcs on the wiki. The entire appeal of such a game is not knowing where everything is; it's learning where everything is, whether from experience or from talking with your friends about the game, and then feeling accomplished when you play through again and think, "Hey, I remember this spot with two archers, you have to go right, roll though the arrow, and parry the guy when he swings his sword."
 

Raikas

New member
Sep 4, 2012
640
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Judgement101 said:
If a game doesn't look fun to you due to difficulty, DON'T BUY IT! That's it. Don't complain to the devs, don't post on the internet, don't do anything. Just avoid the game, are people really shouldn't have this undeserved sense of entitlement.
Most of the shouting I see is from people who sre against the idea, not from people asking for it. Someone who says they were interested but didn't ultimately buy the game specifically because of the difficulty aren't necessarily being entitled, they're just sharing their experience. And from a business perspective that's something a company should want to avoid - if you want to sell your product and people aren't buying it because they think it's too hard the making an easy mode makes sense from a potential sales perspective.

That's what I don't get about this argument - if you're a fan of the property, won't you want it to sell well so that there will be a drive (and a budget) for more of the same?