Poll: Do you think the Milgram Experiment was unethical?

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McMullen

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Hi there.

One thing that always bugged me about the Milgram Experiment (See here for explanation) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment] is that even though what it told us about human beings and their capacity for evil was important to know, it was ruled unethical and could not be done today. Here we have a clear warning about how none of us is above committing atrocities, and therefore it's important to be aware of this and guard against it, and it was condemned because the subjects didn't like finding out that they're Not So Different from the Nazis.

It basically seems like a culture-wide case of denial to me. How different would our culture be if we had taken the lessons of the experiment to heart instead? Would so many of us speak of torture as necessary if we had? Would politicians and media be perhaps less likely to blame movies, music, or video games for school shootings?

What really concerns me is how many other critical lessons have not been learned because the required experiments would be deemed unethical? What we have here is basically a ban on introspection at a society level. What happens to a person if they never examine their flaws? Usually they become complete jerks or worse. So what happens to a society if it outlaws examination of its flaws?

The biggest objection raised seems to be that it caused "inflicted insight". In other words, it caused people to realize that they were capable of doing horrible things simply because they were told to, and this made them uncomfortable. To me, that seems like a good thing. That discomfort is a sign of a healthy sense of morality, and if they had any right to call themselves adults, they would have learned from it, and tried not to make the same mistake in real life. This is exactly what many of the subjects actually did, saying later on that they were glad they participated in the experiment.

So, what do you think? Is the discomfort of the subjects reason to ban experiments like this? Is the possible benefit to society worth it? Is that discomfort no different from the discomfort of maturing as an individual? Is it cowardly to shy away from learning the truth about ourselves simply because it may not be flattering?

Edit: Not sure why a chunk of the second answer is missing. I am unable to fix it. It should read "The experiment was unethical, but we learned important things from it."
 

Evil Top Hat

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May 21, 2011
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Ethnical, unethical, it doesn't matter. A truth is a truth.

Experiments are useful, people that are unwilling to accept that humans are immoral are not. I fully agree with you that it's a good thing people realise who they truly are. It's pointless to try to hide people from what has been shown to be their own nature.
 

lechat

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Dec 5, 2012
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noone got (physically) hurt so i don't see much of an ethical problem

fake lotto tickets on the othe hand.....
 

Dryk

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McMullen said:
What we have here is basically a ban on introspection at a society level.
No. What we have is a ban on badgering people into thinking they've tortured someone to death because you think that the knowledge that could be gleaned might be useful.
 

CriticalMiss

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Jan 18, 2013
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I don't think it is unethical, the subjects could have stopped at any point and they didn't have to agree to take part in the first place. Any kind of experiment like this has to be explained by the examiner to the subjects in away that they will understand so they should know what they are getting themselves in to. Plus noone gets hurt. It might be unpleasant to realise that you are just a glorified murder-monkey in pants, but that's what we are. Feeling bad about it is at least a good sign you aren't a psycho, stopping before the end of the tests is even better.

And I'm not convinced that the experiment was banned either. Derren Brown performed the experiment with a number of people on TV a few years ago (his show called 'The Heist' I think). Unless the ban was recent of course.
 

Lawnmooer

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From what I can tell from the Milgram Experiment, it didn't quite show how "Evil" people are, but rather how little people know about electricity (What is dangerous and what is safe) and that they will rely on scientists to ensure them that they need to do science, because science.
 

Chairman Miaow

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Nov 18, 2009
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I don't think the analogy that "Not So Different from the Nazis." holds up at all. The people know it's for a scientific study, they just don't know how it helps. There's a big difference between inflicting pain because somebody told you to for the interest of science and going around killing people.
 

Rufus Shinra

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Chairman Miaow said:
I don't think the analogy that "Not So Different from the Nazis." holds up at all. The people know it's for a scientific study, they just don't know how it helps. There's a big difference between inflicting pain because somebody told you to for the interest of science and going around killing people.
Of course, in the first case, you torture and kill people "for the greater good". That's a monumental difference. [/sarcasm]

I'm sure you won't object me torturing you. It's for science!
 

pillywiggins

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Apr 8, 2013
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Chairman Miaow said:
I don't think the analogy that "Not So Different from the Nazis." holds up at all. The people know it's for a scientific study, they just don't know how it helps. There's a big difference between inflicting pain because somebody told you to for the interest of science and going around killing people.
I think that's exactly the point, the nazis did do experiments like this all the time, pretty much as you defined it (inflicting pain because somebody told you to for the interest of science).
Most of what we know about burn wounds for example is because the nazis just lit a couple of prisoners on fire every so often just to see what would happen.

As I gather it (and I may be wrong here, I just skimmed the wikipedia article) the purpose of this particular study was among other things to gain some insight into the minds of the nazi "scientists" performing such "experiments".
Were they "in on it" and actually thought they were in the right for advancing science or were they just scared into it by their superiors? That kind of thing.
 

Chairman Miaow

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Nov 18, 2009
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pillywiggins said:
Chairman Miaow said:
I don't think the analogy that "Not So Different from the Nazis." holds up at all. The people know it's for a scientific study, they just don't know how it helps. There's a big difference between inflicting pain because somebody told you to for the interest of science and going around killing people.
I think that's exactly the point, the nazis did do experiments like this all the time, pretty much as you defined it (inflicting pain because somebody told you to for the interest of science).
Most of what we know about burn wounds for example is because the nazis just lit a couple of prisoners on fire every so often just to see what would happen.

As I gather it (and I may be wrong here, I just skimmed the wikipedia article) the purpose of this particular study was among other things to gain some insight into the minds of the nazi "scientists" performing such "experiments".
Were they "in on it" and actually thought they were in the right for advancing science or were they just scared into it by their superiors? That kind of thing.
Rufus Shinra said:
Chairman Miaow said:
I don't think the analogy that "Not So Different from the Nazis." holds up at all. The people know it's for a scientific study, they just don't know how it helps. There's a big difference between inflicting pain because somebody told you to for the interest of science and going around killing people.
Of course, in the first case, you torture and kill people "for the greater good". That's a monumental difference. [/sarcasm]

I'm sure you won't object me torturing you. It's for science!
Difference being that in the Milgram experiment people were volunteering to be experimented on.
 

excalipoor

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I think it'd be relatively easy for someone to convince themselves that these are scientists, that they know what they're doing, and that they wouldn't ask you to do anything genuinely dangerous. You grab a random person off the street, and what are the chances they know just how much is 15 volts, or 450?

Unethical or not, I don't think it does a very good job at replicating the conditions.
 

DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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McMullen said:
One thing that always bugged me about the Milgram Experiment (See here for explanation) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment] is that even though what it told us about human beings and their capacity for evil was important to know
No, it is not "capacity for evil". I don't know why I've seen this term repeatedly - it's an experiment to see how far would people go when following the orders of perceived authority figures.
 

pillywiggins

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Chairman Miaow said:
pillywiggins said:
Chairman Miaow said:
I don't think the analogy that "Not So Different from the Nazis." holds up at all. The people know it's for a scientific study, they just don't know how it helps. There's a big difference between inflicting pain because somebody told you to for the interest of science and going around killing people.
I think that's exactly the point, the nazis did do experiments like this all the time, pretty much as you defined it (inflicting pain because somebody told you to for the interest of science).
Most of what we know about burn wounds for example is because the nazis just lit a couple of prisoners on fire every so often just to see what would happen.

As I gather it (and I may be wrong here, I just skimmed the wikipedia article) the purpose of this particular study was among other things to gain some insight into the minds of the nazi "scientists" performing such "experiments".
Were they "in on it" and actually thought they were in the right for advancing science or were they just scared into it by their superiors? That kind of thing.
Rufus Shinra said:
Chairman Miaow said:
I don't think the analogy that "Not So Different from the Nazis." holds up at all. The people know it's for a scientific study, they just don't know how it helps. There's a big difference between inflicting pain because somebody told you to for the interest of science and going around killing people.
Of course, in the first case, you torture and kill people "for the greater good". That's a monumental difference. [/sarcasm]

I'm sure you won't object me torturing you. It's for science!
Difference being that in the Milgram experiment people were volunteering to be experimented on.
Well, obviously that's where the similarities end and it's a big difference, but that doesn't mean that you can't compare the two for the purpose of this study. Analogous doesn't mean "exactly the same in every aspect".
 
Jan 27, 2011
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I think it's on the border of ethical...

But really, it does show us that all of us how EASY it is to fall into the trap of "just following orders", no matter how terrible the orders are. That's something people in general should understand.

Also, I'm sure it's been said, but spec ops the line does a similar thing
You do terrible things, everything you do in the game makes things worse.
And yet you keep going (just following orders) because that's what you DO in a game!
And the game KEEPS making bad things happen as a result of your actions, but you STILL keep going.
And then they hit you in the face with that fact. That you COULD have just stopped. But you didn't because you were being "told" to continue.

It's kinda the same thing.
 

kailus13

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Mar 3, 2013
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Chairman Miaow said:
Difference being that in the Milgram experiment people were volunteering to be experimented on.
Until they wanted to stop, asking at first, then begging. The "experiments" continued regardless.

excalipoor said:
I think it'd be relatively easy for someone to convince themselves that these are scientists, that they know what they're doing, and that they wouldn't ask you to do anything genuinely dangerous. You grab a random person off the street, and what are the chances they know just how much is 15 volts, or 450?

Unethical or not, I don't think it does a very good job at replicating the conditions.
The machine was clearly labelled with "danger" at a certain point. The "victim" also fell silent afterwards. Most people carried on even after the "victim" appeared to have fallen unconcious.
 

cutecuddely

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The Milgram Experiment was not a study into the capacity of evil, it was a study into obedience, how far people would go on the shock machine when told to continue by a man in a white coat who is in apparent authority. A study for the capacity of evil (tyranny in it's case) is the Zimbardo Experiment or the Stamford Prison Experiment. I do think there is a fear about what we may find out about ourselves with experiments like the Milgram Experiment and that is why, I think, that not many people want to experiments these days because they fear what they may find out about ourselves and so are deemed unethical. It may be that the studies nowadays may be unethical, but that might just be a safeguard so that if something happens in the study or one person didn't like what happened in it then the people conducting the study could be sued, as we live in a society that is easy to hurt and it is relatively easy to sue someone. I personally would like to see more studies about ourselves as we view ourselves as good, helpful people but in reality we probably are not, see the murder of Kitty Genovese for an example or the Piliavin study.
 

Vegosiux

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Unethical? No. It just showed how inclined people are to obey an authority under coercion as simple as "I'm in charge here, so you do what I say." They were not threatened with violence should they refuse continue. They were not told they'd "fail" the experiment if they refused to continue.

They were simply told, by the figure of authority, that they need to carry on. Even when some got disturbed and tried to get out, but after being told "no, you must carry on", they carried on.

kailus13 said:
Until they wanted to stop, asking at first, then begging. The "experiments" continued regardless.
And how many stood up saying "I will not do this, this is wrong"? Turns out, not many. And that's exactly what the actual experiment was researching - how many people would be inclined to follow orders that come from the position of authority, in spite of their own feelings about such orders.

And the results are quite disturbing.
 

excalipoor

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kailus13 said:
The machine was clearly labelled with "danger" at a certain point. The "victim" also fell silent afterwards. Most people carried on even after the "victim" appeared to have fallen unconcious.
You might feel sick, you might have doubts... but would you really believe that these people are telling you to electrocute someone to death? Anyone at that point has to be thinking that it isn't really happening.
 

Kilo24

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Regarding the ethics of the whole thing, an important note is that, when conceiving of the experiment initially, everyone he polled said 3% or less of the subjects would go all the way to the maximum shock; in the first experiment, the actual number was 65% (and later ones had similar percentages.) The point is is that the psychologists at the time would not have been able to make an accurate ethical evaluation of the experiment precisely because they didn't realize it would be so effective. So... the dangers involved couldn't be predicted precisely because the experiment to figure out the dangers hadn't been done yet, so that alone justified the initial experiment.

In a later survey, 84% of the original participants were "glad" or "very glad" to have participated, and 15% gave neutral responses. They seemed unwilling to ascribe any deep long-term suffering to the study.

excalipoor said:
I think it'd be relatively easy for someone to convince themselves that these are scientists, that they know what they're doing, and that they wouldn't ask you to do anything genuinely dangerous. You grab a random person off the street, and what are the chances they know just how much is 15 volts, or 450?

Unethical or not, I don't think it does a very good job at replicating the conditions.
It was not only labeled with "danger" as the previous poster mentioned, there were prerecorded screams played at certain levels of shocks, the learner would start pounding on the wall, and in some versions of the experiment he'd have previously commented about his heart condition. I'm pretty sure that the subject thought that he was quite possibly causing the death of the guy.

kailus13 said:
Chairman Miaow said:
Difference being that in the Milgram experiment people were volunteering to be experimented on.
Until they wanted to stop, asking at first, then begging. The "experiments" continued regardless.
Untrue. If the subject kept asking to stop after 3 predetermined responses, then the experiment would be halted. That didn't happen too frequently.

EDIT:
excalipoor said:
kailus13 said:
The machine was clearly labelled with "danger" at a certain point. The "victim" also fell silent afterwards. Most people carried on even after the "victim" appeared to have fallen unconcious.
You might feel sick, you might have doubts... but would you really believe that these people are telling you to electrocute someone to death? Anyone at that point has to be thinking that it isn't really happening.
Faced with dangerous orders in the real world, they could easily thinking that those wasn't real either. The important thing is that they went through with it, not the line of reasoning why (as long as said rationale is not the direct result of a flaw in the experiment.)