Bit of a long title, but fairly self explanatory. Just because something was made for the sole reason to make money, can you still appreciate it as art? Now, I know that most art is sold, so partial profit motive exists in almost every piece of art, but I'm talking about someone who doesn't care at all about the art they are creating, just whether it will make money.
Poll: Does something made enitrely for profit motive have any artistic merit?
- Thread starter General Winter
- Start date
Recommended Videos
I'm not voting because the question replaces merit with "motive". But sure, you can find artistic merit regardless of intent.
Well, let's say the motivation of profit is a human quality (really, it's self-interest).
And art is comprised of the creator's interpretation of one or many different human qualities.
Then I'd say it's not too much of a stretch to suggest there is artistic merit to be gleaned from works birthed from such a motive. It would really be the communication that suffers for the relationship.
And art is comprised of the creator's interpretation of one or many different human qualities.
Then I'd say it's not too much of a stretch to suggest there is artistic merit to be gleaned from works birthed from such a motive. It would really be the communication that suffers for the relationship.
Vault101, by the flying spaghetti monster, you're alive! Good god man, you've come back from the grave! Vault's a zombie AHHHHHHHHHHHHVault101 said:
OT: I think it depends on the medium and the circumstance. For example, there's a video circulating, that I'm to find, of an artist in NYC making gorgeous skyline art in under 6 minutes. It's entirely for profit and getting her name out, but it's still gorgeous art. When it comes to music, I usually don't think so. Look at pop music, I wouldn't call any of that art because made entirely to sell with the songs/lyrics being written by a committee.
It certainly can.
The business people may be the ones behind the whole thing, but to sell houses/buildings, video games, music, movies, etc, you're going to need artists to produce or design a lot of that.
You could be the most dedicated artist in the world. You would still be human and still need to make ends meet somehow. And also, more money = better education and better materials to make better art.
The business people may be the ones behind the whole thing, but to sell houses/buildings, video games, music, movies, etc, you're going to need artists to produce or design a lot of that.
You could be the most dedicated artist in the world. You would still be human and still need to make ends meet somehow. And also, more money = better education and better materials to make better art.
I think the two are only incidentally correlated, as far as criticism is concerned. Yes, you can sell art, or commission it, but not everything that makes money has artistic merit and not everything with artistic merit makes money.
But ultimately, I'm not sure that you can make art entirely just for profit. I mean, if all you cared about was making money, why would you even choose art as your profession instead of one of the millions of occupations or business endeavors that are far more financially reliable? Sure, you may not be pouring the fabric of your very soul into every single thing you create, but there's got to be at least one other motivating factor than just profit. It's too unpredictable a career to bank on.
Where it becomes most debatable is with celebrities, but I think even those who will make millions regardless of artistic talent or integrity still put their name and reputation on the line, and I imagine there's more to be concerned with than just dollars when your business is yourself.
But ultimately, I'm not sure that you can make art entirely just for profit. I mean, if all you cared about was making money, why would you even choose art as your profession instead of one of the millions of occupations or business endeavors that are far more financially reliable? Sure, you may not be pouring the fabric of your very soul into every single thing you create, but there's got to be at least one other motivating factor than just profit. It's too unpredictable a career to bank on.
Where it becomes most debatable is with celebrities, but I think even those who will make millions regardless of artistic talent or integrity still put their name and reputation on the line, and I imagine there's more to be concerned with than just dollars when your business is yourself.
As long as you arent talking about stuff like fortresscraft where the extent of creativity is literally "lets put minecraft knockoff on the 360 before minecraft is released on the 360" then yes.
An artistic concept can still have business potential, and creativity can come from working within business oriented guidelines.
So long as you have someone somewhere along the lines of developing this thing that contributes any sort of idea to it, there can be at least some minuscule amount of artistic merit to it.
Of course I'm saying this the same way I would say that raw sewage can technically be a beverage. It's very rare that you see an idea that came purely out of a board room meeting with investors produce an end result with any measurable creativity or contribution to the arts.
Kind of off topic: I think it would be interesting if as an experiment, something was made purely by a vote of committee of investors based on marketing data. Writers, game designers, and artists do not do anything unless explicitly specified. So if the committee says "the main character is a man" the concept artist comes back with this
The resulting product, assuming it didn't fall apart completely, would probably be so generic it would come full circle and be interesting again.
An artistic concept can still have business potential, and creativity can come from working within business oriented guidelines.
So long as you have someone somewhere along the lines of developing this thing that contributes any sort of idea to it, there can be at least some minuscule amount of artistic merit to it.
Of course I'm saying this the same way I would say that raw sewage can technically be a beverage. It's very rare that you see an idea that came purely out of a board room meeting with investors produce an end result with any measurable creativity or contribution to the arts.
Kind of off topic: I think it would be interesting if as an experiment, something was made purely by a vote of committee of investors based on marketing data. Writers, game designers, and artists do not do anything unless explicitly specified. So if the committee says "the main character is a man" the concept artist comes back with this
The resulting product, assuming it didn't fall apart completely, would probably be so generic it would come full circle and be interesting again.
Edit: Fixed Awkward Control + V'ing
I'm qualified in literature.
Like most have pointed out by now, profit and art are two completely different concepts which are usually brought together in society as we know it.
So let's just leave the profit concept with the idea of an artist walking a tightrope. Writers sign contracts to produce just like the problem we're experiencing in the gaming industry:
(X amount of games produced over Y amount of time) = A potentially and catastrophically restrictive artistic environment
I write short stories and I don't actively aim for publication, but over the years a couple of things have slipped into the market. I know from experience that to write something really worthwhile you have to have spent time on it, and it must be done with "love" for your project.
I'm currently working on a character piece with many elements and so the story presents many, many problems in terms of how I'm going to make this narrative puzzle fit together in a manner that my readers will find entertaining and engaging. It's very easy to just Glue and Stick a story but then you end up with a piece of shit, it's as simple as that.
Imagine you're a writer working for *Insert Morally Bankrupt Corporate Entity Here*; they have just told you that you are to start working on the next Thief game.
You: "That's great! I loved the Thief series! What are we calling it?"
Guy Above You: "Thief: Revengeancerection!; The Murdering; Death Blade Edition"
You: "Uhh... Why?"
GAY: "Well the marketing people were digging through the archives and one of them thought he recognized the franchise, he said we hadn't used this one yet. Turns out it wasn't the game he thought it was but it seemed similar enough."
*Oops, sorry about that. "Guy Above You" will henceforth be referred to as "Friendly Authority Guy".
You: "Aww, marketing did something again?"
FAG: "Yes! It's all about the marketing!"
You: "Sir, I meant, why are we adding so many tags to the title?"
FAG: "Focus Testing! Marketing says that kids' grannies won't buy a game about a witty guy who cracks jokes while he steals the cutlery. So I want you mul... writers to write about murdering people." - Turns to window overlooking rows of cubicles where programmers, designers and all manner of artistically practical personalities are whipped by a bodybuilder wearing a full body leather BDSM outfit. They do not notice the whipping because of sleep deprivation as evidenced by countless coffee mugs and energy drink cans strewn about the place.
You: "So stealing is NOT OK but the murder is?"
FAG: "You silly donk... writer. It doesn't matter anyway, grannies can't read the title unless we have one big word on the front of the box."
You: "But sir, what about the players?" FAG ignores you. Apparently it's effective.
FAG: "Tell the design computers to make the font small."
You: "You mean the designers sir?"
FAG: "Whatever they're called. I don't want THIEF written in big bold letters on the front."
You(sarcastically): "It shall be done sire. When do we plan to release?"
FAG: "July!"
You: "Next year? But sir, that's not enough time."
FAG(Cuts you off): "Cease your squawking peasant! We release this year!"
You: "But sir! It's April, we can't possibly,"
FAG: "Call me sire. I want a complete project plan by tomorrow."
You: "But sir," - FAG indicates with an open palm that you should stop talking. You think for a moment and then rephrase your objection.- "But sire, the writing team is still on crunch time for that other first person shooter."
FAG: "Oh, you mean the 8 hour babysitting game we'll be selling for $60?"
You: "No, sire. It's a military shooting game that takes about 6 - 8 hours to complete. We've been releasing one a year for a while now. Sometimes two but we use a different name for the other one."
FAG(self-important): "But Large Johnson in marketing did a whole presentation on it for the board and I am pretty sure he used the words 'baby' and 'sitting'.
You: "Real name is Lars sir, he just introduces himself as Large. We're getting off point here sir. We can't possibly make an entire game in three months."
FAG: "I said to call me sire, peasant! Besides you'll have a massive budget! The marketing campaign is going to be insane. They've already showed the trailer at Pee-3 and the fans absolutely loved it!"
You: "But we haven't even started making the game yet sir... sire!"
FAG: "Dick Largely from marketing said he knew about a photo shop that sold pre-release materials. It only cost half the budget!"
You(dying a little inside): "Oh... god... Ahem, his real name is Charles Lesley..."
FAG(cheerily): "Righto then, I'm off." - FAG opens window, waiting patiently for the whip handler to notice him. Whip falls silent. Tired eyes look up at cheerily smiling FAG - "Good news nobodies! We're making a Thief game!" - One employee draped over the coffee station's counter sighs aloud. FAG points at dying programmer "Eddie! Whip that man!".
Eddie: "The handbook says we ain't supposed to whip the employees when they're dying." - Eddie looks at his whip as if remembering something - "Chapter 5 I think, we are to use our energy to motivate the living and thus productive employees; dead or dying employees are of no use and should not be considered appropriate for whipping."
FAG: "Check him then. If that wasn't a death groan I want him whipped for insubordination! And You!" - FAG turns to You. - "No more complaining about time, or whatever you artsy peasants complain about these days. If you don't like it you can go work for ANUS Software, at least our employees have walls."
You: "We have cattle pens sir. Remember? The last CEO sold his farm and illegally removed fixtures like cattle pens, and then to save money on storage and to save the company some money, they just installed them in the office instead of cubicle paneling."
FAG: "Irregardless, they don't have walls. Barbarians!"
You (resigned to your fate): "We will get it done. Do you need anything else?"
FAG: "No! Now get back to your pen!"
You: "Moo."
-FAG leaves with a spring in his step. Someone is waiting for him outside the door. -
Unidentified Voice to FAG: "We're calling it SimooCity; The Rebuildening! It's about those little people from The Simoo games except we've expanded that concept so much that it's become this whole huge NEVER BEFORE seen thing; The Simoos now live in a city, not a neighborhood like the old games. But here's the catch! You don't control the Simoos this time, you control the whole city! It's like, umm."
FAG: "Like playing God?"
Unidentified Voice: "Oh my god, yes! We can brand it as a god game. We..." - Unidentified Voice trails off as if he had started slobbering too heavily to continue -
-Unidentified Voice and FAG leave stage.-
You (descending stairs to pens, singing to yourself): "I hear stories from the chamber
Christ was born into a manger
And like some ragged stranger
He died upon the cross
Might I say, it seems so fitting in its way
He was a carpenter by trade
Or at least that's what I'm told"
Eddie: "Hey you! What are you doing with that dead man's tie?"
You (tying tie to rafter): "Chapter 5 Eddie; you are also not to whip suicidal employees as discouraging them from death voids the company's right to claim their life insurance."
Eddie: "Oh, right. Carry on."
- As a last act of charity you take up a project plan, and write "Thief - Absolutely no tags" under the title heading. You place it in your outbox and jump from your table with the noose around your neck. Unfortunately the building was made by a company owned by one of your bosses and the steel rafter gives way under your weight and falls on top of you.-
-Months later you awaken from a coma. A newspaper is brought to your hospital bed. You read an article. Your company's offices had burned down with most of the employees still inside. FAG is quoted as saying: "We mourn the tragic losses suffered here today. Luckily we had extensive insurance and this incident should not affect productivity much. To mark this joyous occasion we are announcing a new Leisure Suit Larry game. The release will be tomorrow!"-
- A representative from the insurance company is quoted as saying "We mourn the hundreds of life insurance accounts claimed on because of this tragedy." -
- A courier eventually shows up with your laptop because your family, friends and that girl you dated once have forgotten about you. You've been working crunch-time for 10 years. You open your email to find it full of death threats by angry gamers because they think you "made" Thief: The Emoing.-
Time, love and commitment. Add money, no problem. Put money first, ooh boy.
I'm qualified in literature.
Like most have pointed out by now, profit and art are two completely different concepts which are usually brought together in society as we know it.
So let's just leave the profit concept with the idea of an artist walking a tightrope. Writers sign contracts to produce just like the problem we're experiencing in the gaming industry:
(X amount of games produced over Y amount of time) = A potentially and catastrophically restrictive artistic environment
I write short stories and I don't actively aim for publication, but over the years a couple of things have slipped into the market. I know from experience that to write something really worthwhile you have to have spent time on it, and it must be done with "love" for your project.
I'm currently working on a character piece with many elements and so the story presents many, many problems in terms of how I'm going to make this narrative puzzle fit together in a manner that my readers will find entertaining and engaging. It's very easy to just Glue and Stick a story but then you end up with a piece of shit, it's as simple as that.
Imagine you're a writer working for *Insert Morally Bankrupt Corporate Entity Here*; they have just told you that you are to start working on the next Thief game.
You: "That's great! I loved the Thief series! What are we calling it?"
Guy Above You: "Thief: Revengeancerection!; The Murdering; Death Blade Edition"
You: "Uhh... Why?"
GAY: "Well the marketing people were digging through the archives and one of them thought he recognized the franchise, he said we hadn't used this one yet. Turns out it wasn't the game he thought it was but it seemed similar enough."
*Oops, sorry about that. "Guy Above You" will henceforth be referred to as "Friendly Authority Guy".
You: "Aww, marketing did something again?"
FAG: "Yes! It's all about the marketing!"
You: "Sir, I meant, why are we adding so many tags to the title?"
FAG: "Focus Testing! Marketing says that kids' grannies won't buy a game about a witty guy who cracks jokes while he steals the cutlery. So I want you mul... writers to write about murdering people." - Turns to window overlooking rows of cubicles where programmers, designers and all manner of artistically practical personalities are whipped by a bodybuilder wearing a full body leather BDSM outfit. They do not notice the whipping because of sleep deprivation as evidenced by countless coffee mugs and energy drink cans strewn about the place.
You: "So stealing is NOT OK but the murder is?"
FAG: "You silly donk... writer. It doesn't matter anyway, grannies can't read the title unless we have one big word on the front of the box."
You: "But sir, what about the players?" FAG ignores you. Apparently it's effective.
FAG: "Tell the design computers to make the font small."
You: "You mean the designers sir?"
FAG: "Whatever they're called. I don't want THIEF written in big bold letters on the front."
You(sarcastically): "It shall be done sire. When do we plan to release?"
FAG: "July!"
You: "Next year? But sir, that's not enough time."
FAG(Cuts you off): "Cease your squawking peasant! We release this year!"
You: "But sir! It's April, we can't possibly,"
FAG: "Call me sire. I want a complete project plan by tomorrow."
You: "But sir," - FAG indicates with an open palm that you should stop talking. You think for a moment and then rephrase your objection.- "But sire, the writing team is still on crunch time for that other first person shooter."
FAG: "Oh, you mean the 8 hour babysitting game we'll be selling for $60?"
You: "No, sire. It's a military shooting game that takes about 6 - 8 hours to complete. We've been releasing one a year for a while now. Sometimes two but we use a different name for the other one."
FAG(self-important): "But Large Johnson in marketing did a whole presentation on it for the board and I am pretty sure he used the words 'baby' and 'sitting'.
You: "Real name is Lars sir, he just introduces himself as Large. We're getting off point here sir. We can't possibly make an entire game in three months."
FAG: "I said to call me sire, peasant! Besides you'll have a massive budget! The marketing campaign is going to be insane. They've already showed the trailer at Pee-3 and the fans absolutely loved it!"
You: "But we haven't even started making the game yet sir... sire!"
FAG: "Dick Largely from marketing said he knew about a photo shop that sold pre-release materials. It only cost half the budget!"
You(dying a little inside): "Oh... god... Ahem, his real name is Charles Lesley..."
FAG(cheerily): "Righto then, I'm off." - FAG opens window, waiting patiently for the whip handler to notice him. Whip falls silent. Tired eyes look up at cheerily smiling FAG - "Good news nobodies! We're making a Thief game!" - One employee draped over the coffee station's counter sighs aloud. FAG points at dying programmer "Eddie! Whip that man!".
Eddie: "The handbook says we ain't supposed to whip the employees when they're dying." - Eddie looks at his whip as if remembering something - "Chapter 5 I think, we are to use our energy to motivate the living and thus productive employees; dead or dying employees are of no use and should not be considered appropriate for whipping."
FAG: "Check him then. If that wasn't a death groan I want him whipped for insubordination! And You!" - FAG turns to You. - "No more complaining about time, or whatever you artsy peasants complain about these days. If you don't like it you can go work for ANUS Software, at least our employees have walls."
You: "We have cattle pens sir. Remember? The last CEO sold his farm and illegally removed fixtures like cattle pens, and then to save money on storage and to save the company some money, they just installed them in the office instead of cubicle paneling."
FAG: "Irregardless, they don't have walls. Barbarians!"
You (resigned to your fate): "We will get it done. Do you need anything else?"
FAG: "No! Now get back to your pen!"
You: "Moo."
-FAG leaves with a spring in his step. Someone is waiting for him outside the door. -
Unidentified Voice to FAG: "We're calling it SimooCity; The Rebuildening! It's about those little people from The Simoo games except we've expanded that concept so much that it's become this whole huge NEVER BEFORE seen thing; The Simoos now live in a city, not a neighborhood like the old games. But here's the catch! You don't control the Simoos this time, you control the whole city! It's like, umm."
FAG: "Like playing God?"
Unidentified Voice: "Oh my god, yes! We can brand it as a god game. We..." - Unidentified Voice trails off as if he had started slobbering too heavily to continue -
-Unidentified Voice and FAG leave stage.-
You (descending stairs to pens, singing to yourself): "I hear stories from the chamber
Christ was born into a manger
And like some ragged stranger
He died upon the cross
Might I say, it seems so fitting in its way
He was a carpenter by trade
Or at least that's what I'm told"
Eddie: "Hey you! What are you doing with that dead man's tie?"
You (tying tie to rafter): "Chapter 5 Eddie; you are also not to whip suicidal employees as discouraging them from death voids the company's right to claim their life insurance."
Eddie: "Oh, right. Carry on."
- As a last act of charity you take up a project plan, and write "Thief - Absolutely no tags" under the title heading. You place it in your outbox and jump from your table with the noose around your neck. Unfortunately the building was made by a company owned by one of your bosses and the steel rafter gives way under your weight and falls on top of you.-
-Months later you awaken from a coma. A newspaper is brought to your hospital bed. You read an article. Your company's offices had burned down with most of the employees still inside. FAG is quoted as saying: "We mourn the tragic losses suffered here today. Luckily we had extensive insurance and this incident should not affect productivity much. To mark this joyous occasion we are announcing a new Leisure Suit Larry game. The release will be tomorrow!"-
- A representative from the insurance company is quoted as saying "We mourn the hundreds of life insurance accounts claimed on because of this tragedy." -
- A courier eventually shows up with your laptop because your family, friends and that girl you dated once have forgotten about you. You've been working crunch-time for 10 years. You open your email to find it full of death threats by angry gamers because they think you "made" Thief: The Emoing.-
Time, love and commitment. Add money, no problem. Put money first, ooh boy.
Well, that saves me from saying it.Eamar said:
Most of what we hold to be classical art was created at the commission of wealthy patrons OP.
Except that there's plenty of works (movies, books, whatever) that has the artist claim it's about deep, philosophical issues. But if that doesn't come across in the end product, those intentions mean absolutely nothing. And opposite there's loads of movies/books/paintings/music that has the author claim it has no meaning at all, and yet it speaks to a lot of people.SimpleThunda said:
And even when you're speculating about what the artist was trying to convey, you're still doing so regarding the end product, not the artist's intentions.
I don't know how to do that strikethrough thing on here, but if I could I'd change 'Renaissance Italy' for 'anywhere at any time'.Eamar said:
Although to be fair I only class 'art' as 'art' as in the paintings and stuff so what do I know.
Can something that was made for the sole purpose of making money, be art? In my opinion yes. Accidental art, but still art.
Things start to change of course if the person creating said thing also makes something because he wants to create art. Even if the main objective is still to make money.
Things start to change of course if the person creating said thing also makes something because he wants to create art. Even if the main objective is still to make money.