Poll: Does zero exist? - intellectual debate

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LockeDown

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Sep 27, 2009
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Okay, barring the part of this discussion where I point out that you've simultaneously mis-named laws of mathematics and left out the part of said laws that accounts for the situations you say cause your "non-existant zero" theory to be true...

...No. You know what? Let's revisit that.


claymorez said:
1/1 = 1
2/2 = 1
there for n/n = 1
so you would expect 0/0 = 1
Have to stop you here. The reason 0/0 is not equal to 1 is very simple. I'll use the number 2 to help illustrate why you're wrong.

2/1=2 Simple, yes? But watch as we decrease the value of the denominator.
2/.5=4
2/.25=8
... See the pattern? It's a limit function, with n as the denominator of any fraction. As the limit of n approaches 0, the value of the numerator (we'll call it x from here on out) increases exponentially toward infinity. In math, for a limit to exist, the values of x as n approaches whatever number must approach an actual number. Infinity is not a number, therefore, the limit does not exist (saying it has a limit of infinity is merely a way of describing in what way the limit does not exist, or how it would behave were it to exist, with exceptions steeped in calculus that is far beyond the scope of the internet debate.

claymorez said:
therefore like all numbers it must ad-hear to the rule of swapping the bottom of a fraction for the answer so e.g. 1/2 = 0.5 can be rearranged to give 1/0.5 = 2
The rule in Mathematics you're citing here actually has an exception for zero, in case you forgot to read that far ahead.

The rest of your argument is null (just like zero, amirite?), since we use the practical example of dividing objects into equal parts as a tool to teach math to children. When you advance into higher levels of mathematics, you begin to approach principles that cannot be shown in such a manner (like dividing a pizza into 1/4th parts, like I did to the number 2 earlier). Granted, that's a terrible example, and is an improper fraction and blah blah blah...

Anyway, to get back to your original point: does zero exist? It has to. Much of mathematics, and certain crucial equations need a null value (zero) in order to produce a valid answer.

Consequently, if you're looking for something present in mathematics that can be construed to say "Math r pointless, yay!", you might want to try Russell's Paradox, since all mathematics and Number Theory is based on Logic (not the kind you just tried to use here, the mathematical kind).
 

kalakashi

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Nov 18, 2009
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Loop Stricken said:
Does cold exist? Cold being merely the absense of heat...
Does time exist? Time being the name given to the process of entropy...
Now I'm on the side of 0 existing, else there wouldn't be a key for it on my keyboard.
I will, however, argue that time exists, as gravity will SUCK IN TIME (WTF!?). Proven facts, black holes suck in time, time passes slower for those in planes; they tested using nuclear clocks.

Time exists. And that fucks my mind.
 

Altorin

Jack of No Trades
May 16, 2008
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fix-the-spade said:
Oh dear goodness you mathematicians.

The first post sums it up perfectly, a figure to rationalise the absence of something. It exists even though it represents something non existant, humans are very, very good at representing things that don't exist.
They weren't for a long time. It wasn't until the 9th century until a civilization was clear about the existence of zero as a number. For thousands of years before that, there was occasionally a placeholder when you needed to note there was no units of a thing, but these weren't numbers as much as they were just descriptions. Like "There are no sheep", instead of "0 sheep"

The differences between a word, or description, and an actual number are actually pretty profound, and in the case of Zero, are relatively new concepts.
 

-AC80-

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Jul 10, 2009
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1+1=1.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 recering fact we just round it up
 

Ganthrinor

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Apr 15, 2009
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claymorez said:
Ganthrinor said:
ravens_nest said:
Not nessecarily further shades of nothingness, but rather a deficit of something beyond nothing.

If anybody requires proof of the existence of zero and/or negative numbers, just point out the fact that Black Holes are the natural equivalent of the mathermatical principles of nothingness and negativity.
actually if u believe in expansion theory then you gotta except that nothing is defined as the constantly expanding infinite space that is outside out universes expanding cluster of matter.
Interesting idea, but the "space" that the universe is expanding into would more accurately represent the potential of infinity.
 

Dexiro

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Dec 23, 2009
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Your reason for saying that 0 doesn't exist sucks ¬¬

Just because it doesn't follow the same patterns as other numbers doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just makes it a unique number.

Yeah and just noticed a lot of your logic/math was wrong too :/
 

fix-the-spade

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Feb 25, 2008
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A Pious Cultist said:
Is that religious baiting I see before me? :p
In a world of designers, musicians, artists, writers, singers and poets, why did you pick religion?

In theory yes, I suppose. In practice I was thinking more creative people in general.
 

ribonuge

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Dec 7, 2009
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0 is an expression used in maths. It was made up by Mathematicians and can be considered a natural number in some cases. See with maths, you can make stuff up as long as it intertwines with the rest of it.

Dividing by zero...allows you to prove, mathematically, anything in the universe. You can prove that 1+1=42, and from there you can prove that J. Edgar Hoover is a space alien, that William Shakespeare came from Uzbekistan, or even that the sky is polka-dotted
The importance of the creation of the zero mark can never be exaggerated. This giving to airy nothing, not merely a local habitation and a name, a picture, a symbol, but helpful power, is the characteristic of the Hindu race from whence it sprang. It is like coining the Nirvana into dynamos. No single mathematical creation has been more potent for the general on-go of intelligence and power.
 

Claymorez

Our King
Apr 20, 2009
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LockeDown said:
Okay, barring the part of this discussion where I point out that you've simultaneously mis-named laws of mathematics and left out the part of said laws that accounts for the situations you say cause your "non-existant zero" theory to be true...

...No. You know what? Let's revisit that.


claymorez said:
1/1 = 1
2/2 = 1
there for n/n = 1
so you would expect 0/0 = 1
Have to stop you here. The reason 0/0 is not equal to 1 is very simple. I'll use the number 2 to help illustrate why you're wrong.

2/1=2 Simple, yes? But watch as we decrease the value of the denominator.
2/.5=4
2/.25=8
... See the pattern? It's a limit function, with n as the denominator of any fraction. As the limit of n approaches 0, the value of the numerator (we'll call it x from here on out) increases exponentially toward infinity. In math, for a limit to exist, the values of x as n approaches whatever number must approach an actual number. Infinity is not a number, therefore, the limit does not exist (saying it has a limit of infinity is merely a way of describing in what way the limit does not exist, or how it would behave were it to exist, with exceptions steeped in calculus that is far beyond the scope of the internet debate.

claymorez said:
therefore like all numbers it must ad-hear to the rule of swapping the bottom of a fraction for the answer so e.g. 1/2 = 0.5 can be rearranged to give 1/0.5 = 2
The rule in Mathematics you're citing here actually has an exception for zero, in case you forgot to read that far ahead.

The rest of your argument is null (just like zero, amirite?), since we use the practical example of dividing objects into equal parts as a tool to teach math to children. When you advance into higher levels of mathematics, you begin to approach principles that cannot be shown in such a manner (like dividing a pizza into 1/4th parts, like I did to the number 2 earlier). Granted, that's a terrible example, and is an improper fraction and blah blah blah...

Anyway, to get back to your original point: does zero exist? It has to. Much of mathematics, and certain crucial equations need a null value (zero) in order to produce a valid answer.

Consequently, if you're looking for something present in mathematics that can be construed to say "Math r pointless, yay!", you might want to try Russell's Paradox, since all mathematics and Number Theory is based on Logic (not the kind you just tried to use here, the mathematical kind).
- right well i am not insulted at all - considering i got 95% at A level maths - I was simply interested in why 0 cant be divided by itself and equal 1 as n/n = 1, for every equation that is a positive integer - and part of the reason I dumbed down the info was to appeal to a wider range of the audience - thou i will concede to part of ur argument. Plus I was talking about Zero's value being by definition non existent - its just many ppl have this idea that because its a number in the sequence ...-1,0,1.... that it therefore has intrinsic value
 

Idlemessiah

Zombie Steve Irwin
Feb 22, 2009
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Uuurk maths. Just no.

Anyways. Of course zero exists. What happens when I eat all my eggs? There are zero left in the egg box. And besides, whats this -> 0
 

ctrl-alt-postal

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Nov 16, 2009
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In the REAL world, 0 is representative of absence or non-existance.

However, we use it more often to BALANCE or CALIBRATE things. It is used to REFERENCE one thing against another, zero effectively meaning a point of equilibrium or center of something, or a reference point to gain information about something else.

pH 7 = zero acidity/alkalinity

You BALANCE your bank account.

Zero to me is more related to duality than non-existance.
 

A3Bf72rVWE5hA

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Nov 10, 2009
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besides from maybe one or two people, everyone thinks zero exists. should this be the end of the thread? i think it should be
 

EnzoHonda

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Mar 5, 2008
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fedirko7 said:
besides from maybe one or two people, everyone thinks zero exists. should this be the end of the thread? i think it should be
So, does the thread exist anymore?