Poll: Does zero exist? - intellectual debate

[Steveh15]

Maybe some of you really clever Maths people would like to explain to me how there are different sizes of infinity? I attended a lecture with some maths proffessors teaching 'fun' maths but I forgot the reasoning behind it, thought it was pretty cool.

Things like..

You have a hotel with an infinite number of rooms and each one is occupied with a guest, what do you do when..
a) one person comes to the hotel asking for a room?
b) and infinite number of people come to the hotel asking for a room?

I can remember the answers to these two, but can't really explain it.

 

[thiosk]

Let me give you an example.

I have zero dollars.
You have 100 dollars.
I have a gun, which I point at you.
You give me 100 dollars.
You have zero dollars.

hotel with an infinite number of rooms


infinite number of people

i refuse to care about this hypothetical until I see the infinite hotel, or the infinite people.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

It exists in the mind as a concept and as a lack of anything.

There is always something in our thoughts, so we must put a name on the experience or idea of nothing.

[faints]

 

[Steveh15]

Let me give you an example.

hotel with an infinite number of rooms
infinite number of people

i refuse to care about this hypothetical until I see the infinite hotel, or the infinite people.

Fair enough if it doesn't interest you, but it's a bit like saying "I don't care about books, they're just words on paper essentially."

Actually it's nothing like that but whatever MATHS IS COOL!!!

 

[Cari Scholtens]

Zero must exist due to there being a space between real numbers 1 and -1. There is not a hole in the real number line at any point betweent these two and thus, zero must exist.

 

[FrndlyMisanthrpe]

Technically, no numbers exist per se. There isn't one specific place where you can find all the ones and 42s in the universe.
They're concepts.
If you mean that zero is a valid concept, then I'd have to say yes, it is.

 

[rees263]

- snip -

- right well i am not insulted at all - considering i got 95% at A level maths - I was simply interested in why 0 cant be divided by itself and equal 1 as n/n = 1, for every equation that is a positive integer - and part of the reason I dumbed down the info was to appeal to a wider range of the audience - thou i will concede to part of ur argument. Plus I was talking about Zero's value being by definition non existent - its just many ppl have this idea that because its a number in the sequence ...-1,0,1.... that it therefore has intrinsic value

The 0/0 arguement is invalid since the divide function isn't defined when the denominator is zero. That's why when you put it into a calculator you most likely get an error message; mathematics just doesn't account for it. A lot of maths is basically made up so it works together in a logical way (for example the n/0 exception). You could be forgiven for thinking it's all a cop-out but it all works in the real world - how else did we get to the moon... or did we?

 

[ChaoticLegion]

0 <--There it is.

Beat me to it, damn.

 

[Smagmuck_]

0, there's a reason they put it on the keyboard...

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

Zero isn't really a number as much as it is a representation of nothingness.

And of course in mathematics, zero is an incredibly valuable tool.

 

[tthor]

0 exists as a symbol of the absence of anything,
so in a way, it only exists to describe what doesn't exist
so i guess my answer would be... banana

 

[MMMowman]

Edit : as some ppl have misunderstood my point I'll try and make it clear, Zero is a valid mathematical unit of measurement used to represent NOTHING - and because it is nothing it represents space in which nothing exists, and is a mathematical short hand or saying nothing/doesn't exist.

My logic is that it doesn't exist as it is nothing and doesn't adhear to the other rules other number do:

1 + 0 = 1
1 - 0 = 1

Therefore (n = any number)

n + 0 = n
n - 0 = n



1/1 = 1
2/2 = 1
there for n/n = 1
so you would expect 0/0 = 1

also

n x 0 = 0

0 / 1 = 0
0 / n = 0

therefore like all numbers it must ad-hear to the rule of swapping the bottom of a fraction for the answer so e.g. 1/2 = 0.5 can be rearranged to give 1/0.5 = 2

therefore 0 / n = 0 and so 0/0 = n and as n can be any number you want this means that either it doesn't exist or it has multi-shifting qualities which means

0 / 0 = n because 0 can change its value and peramiters to suit its answer.


but keep in mind divivide means to split e.g. 1 stick can be broken into 2 pieces. However by saying n / 0 you imply that nothing is being divided so instead of it being 1 where you start division 0 can be throught of as the point of initial divide before the action to divide takes place so the division never takes place and you are always left with n - which razes the question if 0 can change its properties to 1 or if it favours one state.

p.s. please post your opinions.

Of couse it doesn't exist! It represents nothing. How many cows do I have 0!

 

[Ganthrinor]

Not nessecarily further shades of nothingness, but rather a deficit of something beyond nothing.

If anybody requires proof of the existence of zero and/or negative numbers, just point out the fact that Black Holes are the natural equivalent of the mathermatical principles of nothingness and negativity.

actually if u believe in expansion theory then you gotta except that nothing is defined as the constantly expanding infinite space that is outside out universes expanding cluster of matter.

Interesting idea, but the "space" that the universe is expanding into would more accurately represent the potential of infinity.

I can go with that - thou you could always be difficult and argue 0.A* (pretend * is above value A and stands for infinite sign).

0.A* x 10 = A.A*

ergo 10 = A.A* and 1 = 0.A* and therefore you could say 9 = A so proportional expansion

My math formula skills are about... well, zero. So I'l ljust go ahead and say "sure". I prefer more abstract examples =)

 

[madarame42]

ladies and gentlemen! i give proof of the existence of zero!


--> 0 <--

 

[Dr. Gorgenflex]

I have zero doubt that zero does exist.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

There are no apples in my room. I have 0 apples.

There is a 0% chance that in the next four seconds, thousands of dogs are going to rain from the sky.

Zero exists.

 

[Necrofudge]

Well you make a valid point, and I would agree if we only take into consideration the algebraic part of it.
But if we do, you just took away the one and only accomplishment the Maya had!

 

[rees263]

Maybe some of you really clever Maths people would like to explain to me how there are different sizes of infinity? I attended a lecture with some maths proffessors teaching 'fun' maths but I forgot the reasoning behind it, thought it was pretty cool.

Things like..

You have a hotel with an infinite number of rooms and each one is occupied with a guest, what do you do when..
a) one person comes to the hotel asking for a room?
b) and infinite number of people come to the hotel asking for a room?

I can remember the answers to these two, but can't really explain it.

I find this one of the most interesting parts of theoretical mathematics (I'd like to think that's the geekiest thing I've ever said but I'm sure it isn't).

At it's most basic it's to do with the difference between counting the natural numbers (1,2,3 etc) and the real numbers (every number that is not an imaginary number - if that doesn't make sense then just consider it every number).

Natural numbers are said to be countable and (this is where your belief may falter), there are the same number of even numbers as there are natural numbers. Think about that - the sequences (1,2,3...) and (2,4,6...) have the same number of elements. It might seem strange, but that is also the answer to your infinite hotel problem.

Real numbers are said to be uncountable. The basic premise is that there are more numbers between 0 and 1 than there are natural numbers. Lets say it was possible to count up to infinity, and you assigned a decimal between 0 and 1 to each natural number. The full explanation is very long winded but consider that whichever decimal you had you could always add a digit to the end to make a different one.

So your hotel problem has the first, smaller number of rooms, but it could not fit the second larger number into it, only more of the first.

 

[BuckminsterF]

0 / 0 = n

YOU CAN'T DO THIS. NOT EVEN WITH ZERO. BIG NO-NO, SIR.

yes and my argument hinges on the fact that YOU CAN'T DO THIS because 0 doesn't exist

just because you can't do apply one operator to a number doesn't mean it doesn't exist, otherwise negative numbers wouldn't exist because they can't be square rooted (at least not without i )