Poll: English/ British?

[NeuroticDogDad]

because I don't consider it such and don't care if you do and it's difficult to argue about something without mentioning it.

Whether you consider it an insult or not scumofsociety, its still percived as one. So just give us a break and stop lumping the two together for the sake of a lazy generalisation.

Unfortunately you're choice to be offended doesn't actually grant you any rights or privileges. You have chosen to take a word that isn't being applied to you politically or culturally as a political/cultural insult and that is your problem and nobody else's.

Equally, scumofsociety could be insulted by your devotion to not being called British (despite the fact that you actually weren't) and insist that you stop insulting him. However, he would have the same rights and privileges as you to stop being offended (i.e. none).

we still call them the British Isles.

We don't.

You are correct with your last statement, the gaelic phrase specifically refers to Eire (Éire agus an Bhreatain Mhór), so presumably you don't refer to all of the islands as the British Isles.
As for the rest, you are unfortunately wrong. In the English language the lands upon which you and scumofsociety are located are geographically known as the British Isles, Eire included. You are speaking English and as such English language definitions are used.

Interestingly, the British Islands is a legal term referring to the lands of the United Kingdom (i.e. not the RoI). Very subtle name changes can mean completely different things.

For example: Should one of the Carribean islands wish to politically no longer be referred to in any way as Carribean then politically and legally they wouldn't, but geographically they still would be, in that they don't have a choice.

In summation: Politically you are in the Republic of Ireland, Lawfully you are not in the British Islands but geographically speaking you are on the British Isles.

 

[Species5618]

What is that all about if you don't mind explaining? Why did it used to be called Holland and now it's called the Netherlands?

The name of the country is the Netherlands. Holland is only a small part of it.

 

[General BrEeZy]

hmm. very good Q.
i like to think of america as english since we were british colonies but were becoming too different now with so many mixed races and ethnic backgrounds. i'd call it a british accent. but thats me, other people know history and linguistics better than me, so they can be the bigger voices.

 

[chiefohara]

because I don't consider it such and don't care if you do and it's difficult to argue about something without mentioning it.

Whether you consider it an insult or not scumofsociety, its still percived as one. So just give us a break and stop lumping the two together for the sake of a lazy generalisation.

Unfortunately you're choice to be offended doesn't actually grant you any rights or privileges. You have chosen to take a word that isn't being applied to you politically or culturally as a political/cultural insult and that is your problem and nobody else's.

Equally, scumofsociety could be insulted by your devotion to not being called British (despite the fact that you actually weren't) and insist that you stop insulting him. However, he would have the same rights and privileges as you to stop being offended (i.e. none).

we still call them the British Isles.

We don't.

You are correct with your last statement, the gaelic phrase specifically refers to Eire (Éire agus an Bhreatain Mhór), so presumably you don't refer to all of the islands as the British Isles.
As for the rest, you are unfortunately wrong. In the English language the lands upon which you and scumofsociety are located are geographically known as the British Isles, Eire included. You are speaking English and as such English language definitions are used.

Interestingly, the British Islands is a legal term referring to the lands of the United Kingdom (i.e. not the RoI). Very subtle name changes can mean completely different things.

For example: Should one of the Carribean islands wish to politically no longer be referred to in any way as Carribean then politically and legally they wouldn't, but geographically they still would be, in that they don't have a choice.

In summation: Politically you are in the Republic of Ireland, Lawfully you are not in the British Islands but geographically speaking you are on the British Isles.

The argument is over, why are you trying to stir it up again?

Unfortunately you're choice to be offended doesn't actually grant you any rights or privileges. You have chosen to take a word that isn't being applied to you politically or culturally as a political/cultural insult and that is your problem and nobody else's.

To call an Irish person British is to bring up bad history and bad memories, its not a question of rights or privileges, its a question of basic common courtesy. Scumofsociety knew he was hitting a nerve by saying Irish people were British and yet he did it anyway, and repeatedly so i might add, despite being courteously corrected by another poster on it. He implied that we were british for 'geographical' reasons, which like it or not is still an insult, and he knew it and he continually persisted in it because he knew he was being annoying.

Interestingly, the British Islands is a legal term referring to the lands of the United Kingdom (i.e. not the RoI). Very subtle name changes can mean completely different things.

That point was already made in this thread. The British say one thing, the Irish another. Why are you reiterating it?

Geographically France is the mainland of Britain, yet to say so implies a meaning and an ownership some British people would take issue with. The same applies to Ireland and Britain.

Look at it another way. Irish people view the identity of 'Britishness' in a different way that the British people do. To the British it is a common identity and a nobel thing meaning that ye are all in it together.

Irish people were second class citizens in the UK, to us 'Britishness' implies ownership of us. We weren't equal to ye, we belonged to ye. To call me British is like calling me a slave, and quite frankly ... i don't bloody like it... call me British and i will take issue with you on it. You don't like it... well tough. I have as much right to address you on it as you have as much right to disagree with me on it.

 

[Sovvolf]

snip

Needed to correct you there. We don't belong to you anymore!

Although, I would agree with the general consensus. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all part of the United Kingdom, but are separate countries, really. So you would have an English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish accent.

Apologies. I was just generalising for the sake of an example, I didn't mean to cause any offence there matey. In the same way that you stated that South Ireland no longer belongs to me anymore (as far as I'm aware, I never did own a country).

 

[NeuroticDogDad]

The argument is over, why are you trying to stir it up again?

I felt scumofsociety didn't explain things clearly enough. This is based on you appearing not to understand what is being said and based on your reply I will continue to lay these things out very clearly.

To call an Irish person British is to bring up bad history and bad memories, its not a question of rights or privileges, its a question of basic common courtesy. Scumofsociety knew he was hitting a nerve by saying Irish people were British and yet he did it anyway, and repeatedly so i might add, despite being courteously corrected by another poster on it. He implied that we were british for 'geographical' reasons, which like it or not is still an insult, and he knew it and he continually persisted in it because he knew he was being annoying.

This is a point you seem determined to bring up and the only one I'm losing patience with because you're trying to make something personal as well as seemingly deliberately misunderstanding a point.

I shall make this clear one last time. As a member of the Republic of Ireland you are not British. Scumofsociety has not called you British. I am not calling you British. Should you interpret any part of this communication as me saying you are British you are wrong, go back and re-interpret it because that is not the way it is meant.

We shall go through scumofsociety's tenuous but valid point one last time. Sentence by sentence and you tell me which bit you are struggling with.

1. You are on an island called Ireland.
2. Ireland is not a political name.
3. Ireland consists of two countries: Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.
4. Ireland is the second largest island in a specific area off of the north-western coast of mainland Europe.
5. The collection of all of the islands in this specific area off of the north-western coast of mainland Europe has a name.
6. You are using the English language.
7. In the English language this collection of islands has a defined name.
8. This defined name has no political connections.
9. This defined name has no cultural connections.
10. This defined name does not confer identity or cultural belonging to any inhabitants of any of those islands.
11. The inhabitants of those islands cannot take any cultural or political connections from the defined name of the rock upon which they are located.
12. This defined name is a geographical term.
13. This defined name is the British Isles.

Interestingly, the British Islands is a legal term referring to the lands of the United Kingdom (i.e. not the RoI). Very subtle name changes can mean completely different things.

That point was already made in this thread. The British say one thing, the Irish another. Why are you reiterating it?

No it wasn't. This isn't a question of what they are called by different people, the British Isles and British Islands are different things. More importantly, they are both correctly defined terms in the English language, no matter who is speaking said language.
The British Isles is a geographical term. It refers to every island of this region.
The British Islands is a legal term. It is the region in which there are a set of laws enforced by the same government. The British Islands covers the area of the UK.

You seem to be having a lot of trouble confusing legal, political, cultural and geographical terms. Stop doing it, that's not how the language works.

I similarly know a few Northern Irish people who don't want to be called British and that's fine, culturally they are different so if they don't want the same label as everyone else there is no problem. Politically and legally they are British, in that they have no choice.

Geographically France is the mainland of Britain, yet to say so implies a meaning and an ownership some British people would take issue with. The same applies to Ireland and Britain.

Great Britain, the island, is the mainland of the UK. Would you care to explain to me where France comes into this?

 

[chiefohara]

I felt scumofsociety didn't explain things clearly enough. This is based on you appearing not to understand what is being said and based on your reply I will continue to lay these things out very clearly.

The disagreement was between scumofsociety and myself, all you are doing here is flaring it up again and taking sides.

tell me which bit you are struggling with.

1. You are on an island called Ireland.
2. Ireland is not a political name.
3. Ireland consists of two countries: Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.
4. Ireland is the second largest island in a specific area off of the north-western coast of mainland Europe.
5. The collection of all of the islands in this specific area off of the north-western coast of mainland Europe has a name.
6. You are using the English language.
7. In the English language this collection of islands has a defined name.
8. This defined name has no political connections.
9. This defined name has no cultural connections.
10. This defined name does not confer identity or cultural belonging to any inhabitants of any of those islands.
11. The inhabitants of those islands cannot take any cultural or political connections from the defined name of the rock upon which they are located.
12. This defined name is a geographical term.
13. This defined name is the British Isles.

1. The argument was over Irish accents being called British, he said they were, i said they weren't.
2. He knew it was an insult, and he persisted in calling Irish accents British regardless for the above reasons.
3. I disputed this, because i don't like it infered that im British
4. The defined name for these islands is incorrect because more than just British people live there.
5. According to the Unitied Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland doesn't exist. We are known as Eire. The reason it is only recognised as Eire is because of purely petty reasons. The wording was put down to imply that Eire is an independant state but that Ireland never left the commonwealth.
6. Until the good friday agreement the republic of Ireland had a claim to the northern counties enshrined in its constitution, a claim which ye wouldn't recognise, and a claim that is now gone as a result of the agreement.
7. Another clearer example for you would be the two seperate and disputed names for Derry and Londonderry, our maps say Derry, yours say Londonderry.
8. Points five, six and seven are there to highlight the fact that there is still official disagreements and legal loopholes between Ireland and Britain over our territories.
9. My opinion is just as valid as yours because of point eight.
10. I am using the English language because neither you nor Scumofsociety speak Irish.

This isn't a question of what they are called by different people

Yes it is. I just don't agree with your definition the same way our two countries don't agree with each others definitions.

You seem to be having a lot of trouble confusing legal, political, cultural and geographical terms. Stop doing it, that's not how the language works.

There is confusion there, like it or not. Also you seem to have missed what the argument was over. Irish accents are not British accents, to imply that Irish accents are British because they are in the British isles is incorrect. This debate can spiral off into a thousand different tangents for all i care. I am not budging on that point.

I similarly know a few Northern Irish people who don't want to be called British and that's fine, culturally they are different so if they don't want the same label as everyone else there is no problem. Politically and legally they are British, in that they have no choice.

Firstly if someone from the North objects to being called British, then its just common courtesy to call them Irish, secondly the people of the North are entitled to Both Irish and British passports, so yes... they do have a choice.

Geographically France is the mainland of Britain, yet to say so implies a meaning and an ownership some British people would take issue with. The same applies to Ireland and Britain.

Great Britain, the island, is the mainland of the UK. Would you care to explain to me where France comes into this?

Britain is only an island, France is part of the larger landmass of europe. if you are standing on an island and looking towards France you are looking at mainland Europe. It all depends on definition, the opening paragraph of this article explains better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe

I said it so you would empathise more with where im comming from. France is an entirely different nation to the UK, the same way Ireland is an entirely different nation to the UK. Its as absurd for you to see France as the mainland the same way its absurd for me to see the same thing with the UK.

 

[[.redacted]]

Depends what accent, but for mine, English.

 

[Lord Penney]

English accent would be the most accurate term

Also, I'm (one of) the the only English people who like the Welsh, but everyone hates the English, hooray!

 

[Doomdiver]

English would be more accurate but even then many Englishman don't like being grouped together (I for one don't care that much).
Jason Manford did quite an amusing bit on it.

 

[Nickolai77]

1. The argument was over Irish accents being called British, he said they were, i said they weren't.

It would be inaccurate to call a Northern Irish accent British because Northern Ireland isn't part of the geographic area of Britain, but is part of geographic area of Ireland instead.

Of course, the Northern Irish accent is an accent among many within the the United Kingdom, it just isn't a British accent because Northern Ireland isn't in Britain.


However, due to the close ties between the UK and Ireland, the Irish accent is often heard in the UK, so Irish is an accent you may well here if one goes to Britain. Irish is probably the biggest non-native UK accent spoken in the UK. But that doesn't make it a British accent.

So i agree with your point, i don't get why you said that geographically France is part of mainland Britain though.

 

[FamoFunk]

Call it what you like, I don't have neither being Welsh. So it doesn't apply to me.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

*SNIP*

*SNIP*

Guys, guys, I think I can solve this.
Ever since the posting of certain wikipedia article we seem to have come to the tacit agreement that the Irish can call the Island group whatever the fuck they want, the rest of us can do likewise. If we then put a name to an accent based on what we call that group of Islands then no matter what other name you can put to the accent from elsewhere you can also name it for what you call it as long as you make the point explaining why it has that name if necessary, and even then you don't have if you don't mind misunderstandings.
There, all without using the "B" word.

Also Chief: No, I implied it could be called a British accent because it originates from the British Isles and persisted in doing so because it can, I was making a very specific point in response to the thread and I'm not going to withdraw that point just because you don't like it. i.e. I'm persisting despite the fact that you find it annoying, not because, I have just as much right to answer back as you do.

 

[AnAngryMoose]

snip

Needed to correct you there. We don't belong to you anymore!

Although, I would agree with the general consensus. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all part of the United Kingdom, but are separate countries, really. So you would have an English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish accent.

Apologies. I was just generalising for the sake of an example, I didn't mean to cause any offence there matey. In the same way that you stated that South Ireland no longer belongs to me anymore (as far as I'm aware, I never did own a country).

I know you meant nothing by it. Just joking around a bit.

 

[Ramin 123]

because I don't consider it such and don't care if you do and it's difficult to argue about something without mentioning it.

Whether you consider it an insult or not scumofsociety, its still percived as one. So just give us a break and stop lumping the two together for the sake of a lazy generalisation.

Unfortunately you're choice to be offended doesn't actually grant you any rights or privileges. You have chosen to take a word that isn't being applied to you politically or culturally as a political/cultural insult and that is your problem and nobody else's.

Equally, scumofsociety could be insulted by your devotion to not being called British (despite the fact that you actually weren't) and insist that you stop insulting him. However, he would have the same rights and privileges as you to stop being offended (i.e. none).

we still call them the British Isles.

What this guy said

We don't.

You are correct with your last statement, the gaelic phrase specifically refers to Eire (Éire agus an Bhreatain Mhór), so presumably you don't refer to all of the islands as the British Isles.
As for the rest, you are unfortunately wrong. In the English language the lands upon which you and scumofsociety are located are geographically known as the British Isles, Eire included. You are speaking English and as such English language definitions are used.

Interestingly, the British Islands is a legal term referring to the lands of the United Kingdom (i.e. not the RoI). Very subtle name changes can mean completely different things.

For example: Should one of the Carribean islands wish to politically no longer be referred to in any way as Carribean then politically and legally they wouldn't, but geographically they still would be, in that they don't have a choice.

In summation: Politically you are in the Republic of Ireland, Lawfully you are not in the British Islands but geographically speaking you are on the British Isles.

The argument is over, why are you trying to stir it up again?

Unfortunately you're choice to be offended doesn't actually grant you any rights or privileges. You have chosen to take a word that isn't being applied to you politically or culturally as a political/cultural insult and that is your problem and nobody else's.

To call an Irish person British is to bring up bad history and bad memories, its not a question of rights or privileges, its a question of basic common courtesy. Scumofsociety knew he was hitting a nerve by saying Irish people were British and yet he did it anyway, and repeatedly so i might add, despite being courteously corrected by another poster on it. He implied that we were british for 'geographical' reasons, which like it or not is still an insult, and he knew it and he continually persisted in it because he knew he was being annoying.

Interestingly, the British Islands is a legal term referring to the lands of the United Kingdom (i.e. not the RoI). Very subtle name changes can mean completely different things.

That point was already made in this thread. The British say one thing, the Irish another. Why are you reiterating it?

Geographically France is the mainland of Britain, yet to say so implies a meaning and an ownership some British people would take issue with. The same applies to Ireland and Britain.

Look at it another way. Irish people view the identity of 'Britishness' in a different way that the British people do. To the British it is a common identity and a nobel thing meaning that ye are all in it together.

Irish people were second class citizens in the UK, to us 'Britishness' implies ownership of us. We weren't equal to ye, we belonged to ye. To call me British is like calling me a slave, and quite frankly ... i don't bloody like it... call me British and i will take issue with you on it. You don't like it... well tough. I have as much right to address you on it as you have as much right to disagree with me on it.

 

[NeuroticDogDad]

I felt scumofsociety didn't explain things clearly enough. This is based on you appearing not to understand what is being said and based on your reply I will continue to lay these things out very clearly.

The disagreement was between scumofsociety and myself, all you are doing here is flaring it up again and taking sides.

This isn't a question of what they are called by different people

Yes it is. I just don't agree with your definition the same way our two countries don't agree with each others definitions.

You seem to be having a lot of trouble confusing legal, political, cultural and geographical terms. Stop doing it, that's not how the language works.

There is confusion there, like it or not. Also you seem to have missed what the argument was over. Irish accents are not British accents, to imply that Irish accents are British because they are in the British isles is incorrect. This debate can spiral off into a thousand different tangents for all i care. I am not budging on that point.

I wasn't flaring anything up or taking sides. I had a problem with you stating that Ireland, the geographic name for the island, isn't part of the British Isles, the geographic name for the islands. That was what my argument was centred around and I stand by it. More importantly, if you want to have a discussion with someone privately don't do it in a public forum.

I actually agree that scumofsociety shouldn't have included Republic of Ireland accents because I consider accents a cultural thing and you are culturally not British.

However, that is an opinion of mine that accents are cultural. My argument with you was based on a fact you refuse to recognise. So I wasn't taking sides, I thought you were both wrong on the points you were making but with regards to scumofsociety it was a conflict of opinions and those are rarely resolved.

Either way, I don't have much time nowadays to go through your point-by-point retort but I will have more time in a month. Maybe if the discussion is still interesting then I will return and rejoin.

I'd like to finish by stating that you seem to think that it is our desire to see the Republic of Ireland as British and that is absolutely false. As a British person I personally don't have a problem with the Irish, politically we would like to see you as British as much as you would, there is no interest in calling you British and we wouldn't want to include you in our identity, but geographically we don't have a choice. Until the definition is changed that is how we have to see it.

Slán agat chiefohara

 

[Random Fella]

English, Britain is just our servants name

 

[littlerob]

It's simple. There is no 'British' accent, because Great Britain is England, Scotland and Wales (on a related tangent, the United Kingdom is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and the British Isles add Ireland to that mix as well). And as anyone will tell you, a Londoner and a Glaswegian sound pretty different. Here's a rundown, from the top.

Scotland: This is the accent for swearing in, and starting fights. It is not the accent to plot world domination (side note: this is why I had to force myself not to constantly laugh through the terrible GI Joe film when the evil mastermind was a Scottish dude).

Ireland: This is the accent that everyone thinks they can do, but secretly nobody can but the Irish. This annoys the Irish no end.

Northern England: Like the Scots, but after a few and things have gotten a bit slurry and mellow. Alternatively, like the midlands, but after a few and things have gotten a bit slurry and violent.

The Midlands: My own home, so it's hard for me to pick it out, but then, we do say a LOT of things that... somewhat differ from the 'BBC news' accent. Canna, wunna, shunna, dunna (Can not, will not, should not, do not, etc), that kind of jazz.

Wales: It is impossible to sound tough when speaking in a Welsh accent. It's just silly. Far too lilting. And then there's the Welsh language, don't get me started on that trainwreck. They couldn't decide if they wanted vowels or not, and ended up just splitting the camps - some words are just vowels, others are just l's, r's, w's and y's. Strange folk.

The Southeast: Your stereotypical english accent, thanks to the BBC news of old and its policy of only hiring people with a 'proper' accent.

The South: It's impossible to sound educated with a southern accent. It's just too gormless sounding. I find it hilarious when they're on the news trying to sound serious.

And that is my stereotypical roundup of British regional accents.

 

[dragonslayer32]

It depends on where in the UK they are from. English, Scotish, Irish and Welsh are very distinctive.

 

[LeonardoDaFinchy]

*personal rant snipped in foresight*

I personally prefer the term British, because to me, "English" only really means "Greater London and maybe Kent".