Poll: Evolution Yay or Nah?

[Rodrigo Girao]

Anyone who says "it's just a theory" doesn't know what theory means.

 

[mOoEyThEcOw]

Belief and evolution should not be in the same sentence.

It makes me so sad to see the U.S. have the same evolution acceptation as Turkey.

Belief and evolution go hand in hand

the only way to know something as fact is to be in all places at all times.

example

Watermelons are blue on the inside until you cut the skin prove I'm wrong.

Not quite.
I can say, watermelons, in general, are red inside, because I have previously observed them to be so.
But I can't say watermelons, in general, are blue inside, because.

What you are suggesting is actually quite dangerous, and is a prolific problem in the United States. The onus is not on me to prove you wrong, it is on you to prove the theory correct. You can say that about watermelons, but unless you have a way to prove your reasoning (Opening the watermelon) it is meaningless. This is a fundamental problem with belief based arguments. The opposing arguer does not have to prove it wrong, you have to provide evidence that it is correct, and that evidence must support your claim. With out the evidence it is simply an opinion. After providing evidence the opposing arguer may show that your evidence is wrong, and you have returned to the beginning.

Evolution has a massive amount evidence. The belief comes in where you believe that the people reviewing this evidence, and those presenting it, are doing so truthfully, this is easier when they can prove their truth by giving evidence that they are telling the truth.

 

[FernandoV]

I dont believe in evolution. Cause that means its just something I think. I have eyes and reason though, so saying I "believe" in evolution is innacurate.

Even if you believe in God, you can know evolution. But most god fearers dont understand the middle ground.

Did you post so you could display your edgy use of semantics? If their faith requires them to believe something other than evolution, or believe their god had some hand in evolution then that is their prerogative. Sure, they CAN believe in evolution if they wanted to, but it'd nobodies business if they don't.

You seem to have some weird idea that religion is some quiet group who just sit in their corner minding themselves. Religion pushes their ways and beliefs and thinking on everyone. I choose to simply try pushing back. Maybe not the best method, but Ill be damned if Im learning creationism in my science class.

Oh, but you aren't, are you? No, YOUR RIGHT to believe what you like is defended. You're not some champion for the cause of evolution; rather than trying to infringe on the rights of people to believe what they like you should break the image of arrogant atheists and accept them for their beliefs, whether they accept you for yours.

Yeah yeah yeah. Same old song and dance. I decry religion for infringing on human rights and so forth, and that makes ME the bad guy. I dont like fighting religion. I really wish I did not even have to care about it. Now, Im not saying Im not doing the same thing as them...but if so, then im doing THE SAME THING AS THEM. Yet you arent yelling at them too now are you?

Oh sorry about them, I'll have a talk with their parents as soon as..oh that's right. You're not a Christian telling an atheist he can't believe what he wants, you're an atheist saying Christians can't believe what they want. Grow up and stop going "But she started it!", I'm not your parent. Yea, you are the bad guy here, you like your right to believe what you like? They like their rights too. Don't be a hypocrite and expect only your beliefs to be valid.

I would like to say there is a difference between a religious person saying "we should teach our beliefs in public and push them on others" and an atheist saying "We should not be taught or have beliefs forced on us if we do not wish it". One is arrogant and one is rational and a right!
I don't think Saelune is saying that they shouldn't be able to worship, I don't see anything even remotely implying that in her posts, they just shouldn't be allowed to force feed their ideology to those who don't want it.

OT: Evolution has the most evidence and is the most reasonable explanation. Belief may not be the right word for it but, yes, I believe in evolution.

Uh, no, she definitely implied it continually. I agree with not allowing them to force it on anyone, as I've obviously said time and time again, but she was going for the "Ban all christianity ever approach" which I do not agree with, if you didn't see that it's because you don't want to.

I dont believe in evolution. Cause that means its just something I think. I have eyes and reason though, so saying I "believe" in evolution is innacurate.

Even if you believe in God, you can know evolution. But most god fearers dont understand the middle ground.

Did you post so you could display your edgy use of semantics? If their faith requires them to believe something other than evolution, or believe their god had some hand in evolution then that is their prerogative. Sure, they CAN believe in evolution if they wanted to, but it'd nobodies business if they don't.

You seem to have some weird idea that religion is some quiet group who just sit in their corner minding themselves. Religion pushes their ways and beliefs and thinking on everyone. I choose to simply try pushing back. Maybe not the best method, but Ill be damned if Im learning creationism in my science class.

Oh, but you aren't, are you? No, YOUR RIGHT to believe what you like is defended. You're not some champion for the cause of evolution; rather than trying to infringe on the rights of people to believe what they like you should break the image of arrogant atheists and accept them for their beliefs, whether they accept you for yours.

Yeah yeah yeah. Same old song and dance. I decry religion for infringing on human rights and so forth, and that makes ME the bad guy. I dont like fighting religion. I really wish I did not even have to care about it. Now, Im not saying Im not doing the same thing as them...but if so, then im doing THE SAME THING AS THEM. Yet you arent yelling at them too now are you?

Oh sorry about them, I'll have a talk with their parents as soon as..oh that's right. You're not a Christian telling an atheist he can't believe what he wants, you're an atheist saying Christians can't believe what they want. Grow up and stop going "But she started it!", I'm not your parent. Yea, you are the bad guy here, you like your right to believe what you like? They like their rights too. Don't be a hypocrite and expect only your beliefs to be valid.

Im not an athiest. The FACT that people always call me an athiest in these arguments kinda makes those who call me it a hypocrite. I mean, only athiests can hate religion? Thats a narrow minded view. Shame.

I'm sorry, up to this point I thought we were debating, but I don't see any argument there so much as a distraction. No, it's a logical assumption that given the information you presented one would assume you are an atheist. It's an educated guess, they're not always right but they are definitely not unfounded. There is no hypocrisy there, I didn't go and say "only atheists are unable to determine the religion of someone based on a forum post", so try to argue something in your next post.

Well its a logical assumption that a group of people who restrict the rights of others are bigots. Im not the bad guy for wanting facts over beliefs, nor am I a bad guy for wanting to be treated like a human, which the lack of that by religious groups primarily is my main driving force in putting down religion.
People always say "They have the right to believe what they want" Fine. Sure. But What they believe has invaded our politics and negatively affected billions. But hey, if the good guy is an abusive father figure who torments people based on sexuality, race, gender, opposing beliefs, then Im proud to be the bad guy.

I dont believe in evolution. Cause that means its just something I think. I have eyes and reason though, so saying I "believe" in evolution is innacurate.

Even if you believe in God, you can know evolution. But most god fearers dont understand the middle ground.

Did you post so you could display your edgy use of semantics? If their faith requires them to believe something other than evolution, or believe their god had some hand in evolution then that is their prerogative. Sure, they CAN believe in evolution if they wanted to, but it'd nobodies business if they don't.

You seem to have some weird idea that religion is some quiet group who just sit in their corner minding themselves. Religion pushes their ways and beliefs and thinking on everyone. I choose to simply try pushing back. Maybe not the best method, but Ill be damned if Im learning creationism in my science class.

Oh, but you aren't, are you? No, YOUR RIGHT to believe what you like is defended. You're not some champion for the cause of evolution; rather than trying to infringe on the rights of people to believe what they like you should break the image of arrogant atheists and accept them for their beliefs, whether they accept you for yours.

Yeah yeah yeah. Same old song and dance. I decry religion for infringing on human rights and so forth, and that makes ME the bad guy. I dont like fighting religion. I really wish I did not even have to care about it. Now, Im not saying Im not doing the same thing as them...but if so, then im doing THE SAME THING AS THEM. Yet you arent yelling at them too now are you?

Oh sorry about them, I'll have a talk with their parents as soon as..oh that's right. You're not a Christian telling an atheist he can't believe what he wants, you're an atheist saying Christians can't believe what they want. Grow up and stop going "But she started it!", I'm not your parent. Yea, you are the bad guy here, you like your right to believe what you like? They like their rights too. Don't be a hypocrite and expect only your beliefs to be valid.

Im not an athiest. The FACT that people always call me an athiest in these arguments kinda makes those who call me it a hypocrite. I mean, only athiests can hate religion? Thats a narrow minded view. Shame.

I'm sorry, up to this point I thought we were debating, but I don't see any argument there so much as a distraction. No, it's a logical assumption that given the information you presented one would assume you are an atheist. It's an educated guess, they're not always right but they are definitely not unfounded. There is no hypocrisy there, I didn't go and say "only atheists are unable to determine the religion of someone based on a forum post", so try to argue something in your next post.

Well its a logical assumption that a group of people who restrict the rights of others are bigots. Im not the bad guy for wanting facts over beliefs, nor am I a bad guy for wanting to be treated like a human, which the lack of that by religious groups primarily is my main driving force in putting down religion.
People always say "They have the right to believe what they want" Fine. Sure. But What they believe has invaded our politics and negatively affected billions. But hey, if the good guy is an abusive father figure who torments people based on sexuality, race, gender, opposing beliefs, then Im proud to be the bad guy.

I'm sure you know that you're just indulging your own side of the story at this point and have no actual founded way of supporting the infringement of the beliefs of others. If you do believe what you're saying then give it a couple of years until you've allowed your mind to open up a little. For some reason you keep on gearing the conversation in a way that claims that Christians are not at fault for anything. Argue something I actually said, if that's the case. Stop acting so suffered, you're being treated fine, from a government standpoint, you're as protected as can be. You're not in jail for believing what you want, right? Whatever qualms you have with your local community being bigots towards you is another issue. And abuse is not mutually inclusive to religion, that depends on the individual. My parents both believe in god but I'm not abused, they are fine with my sexuality, and respect my lack of beliefs.

have you ever had your rights restricted from you? Maybe you are the one who needs an eye opener. Its never people who have been persecuted that argue your points against me. It would make a huge difference if a gay person defended christianity like you. So tell me, have you had your rights truly taken/kept from you? And how so?

So I'm not allowed to argue the merits of artwork because I've never painted? The quality of a game because I've never created one? The severity of a war crime because I've never experienced it? I think not. If you are being oppressed by religion it is not being condoned by the government, that is a problem that you deal with yourself, phasing out religion isn't helping anyone. The second you deny a person the right to believe what they like is the second that they become violent in their fervor to defend it. If you've had your rights truly taken away from you then you can sympathize with the displeasure at having them taken away. You can't only defend YOUR right to believe.

No one is taking away their right believe, simply stated Creationism has no place in a public school classroom. Why? Because it is a belief based in religion, and not a scientific theory based in fact. Its not that schools are enforcing evolution, they are simply teaching what we humans have learned through the scientific method, in science class.

As to the line "If you are being oppressed by religion it is not being condoned by the government" is sadly no longer true, we must obey religion's idea of marriage in many state governments. We have to teach creationism, and learn it, and think critically about it (Because we are taught it in school), when it is a religious belief, and not scientific theory. We are being oppressed, not only in our societal rights, but in our intellectual liberty and freedoms. School isn't meant to present things that may or may not be true and need to be believed in, it is meant to present and teach things known throughout the common knowledge of humanity as proven scientific theory and fact. Or the religious beliefs of sex, preventing well known, life (In the physical and overreaching lifestyle sense) saving measures from being taught (like condoms), because religion dictates that they are related to bad behaviors, and are therefore, bad, some even go as far as preventing access through the government.

Religions ARE oppressive in parts of the United States.

Oh, I see. I didn't understand it as simply fighting religious tyranny on more local/state levels. I wouldn't say it's condoned but I guess they turn a blind eye. Shame :\

 

[Abengoshis]

I put yes because I think you mean fact as in "it is what is true". It is both a fact and a theory, in that it is an observed occurance AND a model to explain how organisms change.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Yeah, it certainly makes more sense than some mystical being pulling us all out of his divine ass.

*intentionally trying NOT to single out anyone's beliefs.

 

[crudus]

I'm a christian
i also believe that evolution is a real thing
i don't believe that we evolved from apes
i believe that we began to evolve from the moment god created us
think about it

While I don't agree with you I just thought I would take the time to say thanks for saying "apes" instead of "monkeys". I can't tell you how many times I have heard "Humans didn't/couldn't evolve from monkeys!" from a creationist. I usually follow that statement with a short chuckle and say "I agree with you 100 percent". Although my personal favorite was "evolution says we evolved from rocks. That can't be true!". It's funny since that is almost verbatim what the Bible says happened (it says Adam was created from dust of the Earth, in some versions it says sand).

Damn, blue is a snazzy color...

From what I understand it all prevents suicides.

Belief and evolution go hand in hand

the only way to know something as fact is to be in all places at all times.

example

Watermelons are blue on the inside until you cut the skin(rind) prove I'm wrong.

If you really want to go that way then I believe the burden of proof is on you. There is nothing to suggest that watermelons would change their color once being opened. Then again discussions involving epistemology get messy extremely quickly.

 

[Sarry1433]

Belief and evolution should not be in the same sentence.

It makes me so sad to see the U.S. have the same evolution acceptation as Turkey.

Can you explain that sentence?

 

[Trivea]

Evolution means 'change'. Clearly, everything evolves. To say that evolution doesn't exist at all is ignorant. Do I believe that evolution explains how everything came into being? No, because you can't shape something out of nothing. Do I know for certain where it came from? No.

And since this has gone on for four pages, I'm sure it's already been pointed out, but I just have to say... it's "yea or nay". No one can spell "yea" anymore.

 

[AlexNora]

yeah yeah i know i'm just making a silly point very little can be proven as fact its just the way things are.

as for evidence id look at all of it really closely because most of it is highly exaggerated if not blatant lies.

to evolutionist there are no absolutes anyway so they can never even be sure there sure.

ill leave you with a quote

"Any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight"

 

[Kolby Jack]

Yeah, it certainly makes more sense than some mystical being pulling us all out of his divine ass.

*intentionally trying NOT to single out anyone's beliefs.

Trying to act like you are tolerant of people's beliefs by bashing all of them at once? The perfect plan! /sarcasm

Is it so hard for people to respect other people's beliefs? I've yet to meet a creationist who 's belief made them less than worthwhile. An asshole will be an asshole regardless of whether or not he believes the earth was made by God 6000 years ago or coalesced from space rocks 4.5 billion years ago. A person's actions determine his worth, not his beliefs.

 

[Sight Unseen]

as for evidence id look at all of it really closely because most of it is highly exaggerated if not blatant lies.

yeah.... no.

You may occasionally get a scientist with some kind of agenda trying to push things a certain way, but scientific publications are all peer-reviewed and would be thrown out if there was any clear bias in it. also any scientist can feel free to repeat any experiment performed if they are skeptical about it and they can call bullshit on it if necessary.

Is it so hard for people to respect other people's beliefs? I've yet to meet a creationist who 's belief made them less than worthwhile. An asshole will be an asshole regardless of whether or not he believes the earth was made by God 6000 years ago or coalesced from space rocks 4.5 billion years ago. A person's actions determine his worth, not his beliefs.

I don't have a problem with people believing what they want to believe, but I hate when people are willfully ignorant about things. If you do your homework piece together the facts and come to the conclusion that evolution guided by a creator, then that's fine all the power to you, but if you want other people to believe you you'd better be ready to support your opinion with facts.

It's people who consistently ignore the facts, or worse, keep using the same arguments that have been refuted hundreds of times that piss me off. Espescially if they have the audacity to say that I'm a bad person for being an atheist because I lack morality or some crap like that. but that's for another topic.

 

[Pandabearparade]

Macro evolution is a theory, which means nothing can conclusively prove it. ("a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. ")

Dead wrong. That's the definition of theory in common parlance, not in the context of science. Words have different meanings in different contexts.

Theory: A plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena.

An example of another 'theory' within science is atomic theory, the theory that matter is composed of atoms. Another is cell theory, the theory that biological life forms are comprised of cells.

So far, all of the missing links and early humans, like Lucy, have been fake. (http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_man_02.html)

That's simply bullshit. Sorry mate, no nicer way to say it.

Carbon dating showing ages is unreliable.(http://www.archaeologyexpert.co.uk/radiocarbondating.html

Says one dubious source without providing any actual support for the claim.

The embryos shown in every textbook have been proven to be inaccurate and misleading

Most modern textbooks just use actual photographs. Unless you're accusing the scientists who write the textbooks of doctoring the images?

 

[AlexNora]

as for evidence id look at all of it really closely because most of it is highly exaggerated if not blatant lies.

yeah.... no.

You may occasionally get a scientist with some kind of agenda trying to push things a certain way, but scientific publications are all peer-reviewed and would be thrown out if there was any clear bias in it. also any scientist can feel free to repeat any experiment performed if they are skeptical about it and they can call bullshit on it if necessary.

that's great and all but what if all your peers are just as willing to lie think about about it..

 

[x360ryan]

Even religion itself is evolving, think about it. First it said this now its changed to being accepting of gay people, then the big bang theory and now religions adapting to survive the new threat of evolution.
No offense to anyone.

 

[x360ryan]

double post my bad

 

[Sight Unseen]

as for evidence id look at all of it really closely because most of it is highly exaggerated if not blatant lies.

yeah.... no.

You may occasionally get a scientist with some kind of agenda trying to push things a certain way, but scientific publications are all peer-reviewed and would be thrown out if there was any clear bias in it. also any scientist can feel free to repeat any experiment performed if they are skeptical about it and they can call bullshit on it if necessary.

that's great and all but what if all your peers are just as willing to lie think about about it..

That's some pretty intense conspiracy stuff you've got going there. Can you imagine how hard it would be to completely cover up any contradicting evidence to evolutionary theory and also prevent any upcoming scientist in practically any field of biological sciences from seeing the truth? It would be practically impossible to keep the truth a secret if the millions upon millions of facts that supported evolution were all made up, someone would fuck up somewhere and ruin the whole thing.

It would have to be a worldwide conspiracy among every university and major scientific corporation in the world.

And ultimately, what would be the point of it? Evolutionary theory provides useful tools for many fields of science, what would be the use in a worldwide conspiracy designed to provide useful and logical explanations for the universe?

 

[Radelaide]

Evolution makes more sense than the other thing.

 

[TKIR]

as for evidence id look at all of it really closely because most of it is highly exaggerated if not blatant lies.

Please share what evidence you think is highly exaggerated or a blatant lie.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

I'm a christian
i also believe that evolution is a real thing
i don't believe that we evolved from apes
i believe that we began to evolve from the moment god created us
think about it

Well good for you. Just to clarify, you are aware that even people who DO believe in evolution don't believe we evolved from modern apes, right? If so, go about your day. If you were trying to present a contradictory opinion without outright saying it, then you didn't really express it in the right way and I'm not quite sure you understand the boundary you're trying to push with that statement.

OT: yes. The evolution debate has at this point become the modern day version of the discovery that the earth is round. People are slow to accept it is because of lingering religious dogma and it's taking a little bit longer to become widely accepted because it's far easier to sail around the world than it is to dig up the seemingly infinite number of fossils necessary to completely prove without a shadow of a doubt that evolution is real to somebody who is actively in denial about it. Not that we haven't been digging, mind.

 

[Kolby Jack]

Is it so hard for people to respect other people's beliefs? I've yet to meet a creationist who 's belief made them less than worthwhile. An asshole will be an asshole regardless of whether or not he believes the earth was made by God 6000 years ago or coalesced from space rocks 4.5 billion years ago. A person's actions determine his worth, not his beliefs.

I don't have a problem with people believing what they want to believe, but I hate when people are willfully ignorant about things. If you do your homework piece together the facts and come to the conclusion that evolution guided by a creator, then that's fine all the power to you, but if you want other people to believe you you'd better be ready to support your opinion with facts.

It's people who consistently ignore the facts, or worse, keep using the same arguments that have been refuted hundreds of times that piss me off. Espescially if they have the audacity to say that I'm a bad person for being an atheist because I lack morality or some crap like that. but that's for another topic.

As do I. Ignorance should be fought at every opportunity. And yes, someone who tells you you are a bad person for being an Atheist is obviously not that open-minded a guy. My brother is an Atheist, and while my Mom, who is a devout Christian (though not a creationist,) believes it is just a phase, she doesn't force the issue. She prays for him while letting him decide for himself. Close-minded people exist on both sides. The thing is, you can't prove creationists wrong. According to their beliefs, nothing is beyond the scope of God's power, so if they say "God did it" it's pretty tough to convince them otherwise if their beliefs are strong enough. My point is, all these people on the Escapist who make fun of creationists and call them ignorant aren't really helping anyone.