To Mr Cruise (OP), sorry if I'm taking this thread OT with more gun flame wars, but I just want to say my two pennies and then I'll get lost. Don't shoot me. That magnum is dangerous.
ratix2 said:
first off, that point you think is key is bunk. MOST guns used in crimes in the united states are illegally possessed to begin with, so you argument that the criminals wont use them is flawed.
You misunderstand. What I mean is, although they may have access to the weapons, they would not use them in petty crimes such as a mugging. I'm not disputing that the criminals would be able to get access to them, but hopefully this wouldn't be easy, so they wouldn't need to go to the trouble of doing so if they were just out to bag a few watches and wallets.
second, when you look at the us as a whole yes, the violent crime rates are high. HOWEVER, when you look at each individual state the situation becomes much different. funnily enough the states with the MOST RESTRICTIVE gun laws also usually happen to have the HIGHEST violent crime rates, where states with more lax gun laws typically have LOWER violent crime rates.
When I first read this I was like: "OH SHIT! HES GOT ME! TO THE EJECTOR SEAT! FIRE ALL SMOKESCREENS!" But actually, I was looking through State's gun laws, and I realised this.
Kansas: Very liberal gun laws. Population, 2 million, density, ~12 people per sq. km
Minnesota: No firearms registry. Population, 5 million, density, ~25 people per sq. km
California: 36 million people. Even the bullets have unique marks to identify where they came from. Massive urban areas (notably Los Angeles).
Illinois: Very restrictive gun laws. Large urban areas (notably Chicago)
The states with the highest crime rates are ones with large, concentrated populations, and also a relatively large amount of poor people and areas. THe ones with the lowest ones have a widely spread (largely rural population). These states usually have conservative leaders, as they are quite affluent, who enact liberal gun laws. Firearms are mostly used for hunting and recreation in these states.
In a state like Califnornia, the government of the state and cities have enacted harsh legistlation in response to massive gun related crime. In fact, murders in Califnornia have decreased by just under 50% on 1993's numbers.
also, when you factor in prosecution of gun crimes (aka, illegal gun ownership), those states that prosecute violators of such crimes again have lower crime rates. as an example, virginia, a state with only 16 million residents, had more prosecutions in 2002 for people found with illegal weapons than california, pennsylvania, new york, illionis and washington dc COMBINED, despite those states having a population of over 100 million combined. another fact is that in washington dc2002, out of over 2000 illegal gun owners arrested, only 2 were actually prosecuted.
Interesting. Not sure why that is. If I had to guess wildly I'd say that in places like DC, when they catch a dude with an illegal weapon, it is mostly likely a result of an investigation based around other, more serious crimes, and the prosecutors would rather prosecute for these crimes than the gun charges. But I have no idea about the procedure for that, so I could easily be wrong.
and heres some more facts. despite america having a higher violent crime rate countries with restrictive gun laws, those same countries typically have higher petty crime rates (home burglary, robbery, muggings, etc) than the us. also, germany, which has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the world, has had 3 times more school shootings resulting in 5 times more deaths than the us has.
THAT is an issue that relates to some serious stigma in German society. In fact, if you still have the site where you got that data I'd be very interested in a link, so that I can see the breakdown of East versus West Germany. But again, that is effected by some factors that have nothing to do with gun laws.
sorry, but guns arent the problem, the problem is loopholes that allow criminals to get guns in the first place and court systems that dont prosecute laws that are in effect.
Dunno about loopholes.
finally, how would the ordinary citizen NOT be able to effectively defend themselves against those threatening them with guns? do you know women who are in a threatening situation have a significantly higher chance of escaping unharmed if they even pull out a gun, let alone use it? the statistics are there, people CAN effectively defend themselves with guns, and MOST OF THE TIME they can do so without ever firing it.
Believe it or not, not all muggers are off their head on speed or psycho murderers. They want your cash. If you live in area where there are muggers, and you have a brain, you will be able to minimise the amount of times you are mugged. When you are mugged, give them your stuff. That way there won't be a risk of anyone dying... That mugger has lived a life, people care about him. He deserves to live too.
