Poll: Games aren't gay enough.

[Knight Captain Kerr]

Yes, games should have a greater diversity of sexuality.

Here is a rather good article Jim Sterling wrote on sexuality in New Vegas:

http://www.gamefront.com/homosexuality-and-fallout-new-vegas-a-gay-marriage-made-in-gay-heaven/

Here is another good article on the subject:

http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5650

 

[FitScotGaymer]

Like Cortez of mass effect 3. Every single sentence he said could be strechet down to "I HAD A HUSBAND! I AM GAY! DO YOU GET IT NOW?" And i hate something like that.

That isnt true.

Later conversations (if you romance him) amount to "I'm GAY! And so are you! Yay! Let's fuck! (even though my husband only recently died and I am not over him!)"
To to me it's like a str8 guy said "what r gay dudes like?" and then wrote the romance based on his sterotypical perceptions about gay guys, by making Cortez a proper slutty gay man. The only thing missing was the offensive effeminate mannerisms.

It's even worse than Jaheira's romance in BG2.

 

[Ethan Edwards]

While I agree that the comparison is rather... shitty, they are right in the sense that pedophilia is a sexual preference (and a perversion, mind) and both homosexuality and heterosexuality are defined as sexual preferences.

I will not stand silent while people use technicalities as a defense while they compare gay people (like myself) to rapists.

I will not stand silent while people use the proven-wrong slippery-slope fallacy to attack the gay community.

I'm a pedophile -- one of the ones who has never abused a child and never will. I support you most of the way here. Gays and lesbians deserve equal rights in all things, and positive acceptance. The existence of pedophilia has nothing to do with gay rights. Pedophiles don't have the right to engage in their desires and never should. And people who make the link are as you say trying to attack the gay community. The fact that both are unusual sexual attractions that people don't choose doesn't have any practical importance in this case.

Pedophilia is a desire to rape. It may not be an individual's fault, but it is an inherently destructive desire. Rape always causes harm. Even if the individual never acts on the urge, it will likely have an effect on their mind, leading to, as you noted, potential suicide.

This is unfair. Among pedophiles who never abuse children, fantasies are often romantic without specifically sexual content. Fantasies with sexual content very often lack penetration. And while sexual activity with any underage person is abuse, that doesn't make the fantasy a fantasy of abuse. If you fantasize about a woman who you know doesn't want sex with you for whatever reason, is that a fantasy of rape? The action would be rape, but not the fantasy.

Pedophiles cover an enormous range in personality, psychology, and actions in the world. Best not to make confident generalizations about what goes on in our heads. I'm a co-founder of Virtuous Pedophiles, an organization of pedophiles dedicated to never abusing children (virped.org).

Edit: Oh, and one last thing. When people use the word pedophilia, 99.9% of the time, they mean those who have acted on it and raped one or more children. You can say "oh, it's a technicality, it's just a preference" all you like, but that's not what the purpose of using the argument you're defending is. The purpose is to compare gay people to rapists in the minds of that 99.9%, not to argue about the 0.1% who separate the meanings between desire from action.

I'm with everyone in thinking the rape of children is a terrible thing. But when people use "pedophilia" to mean "sexual abuser", they define us out of existence. We can eke out an existence with "celibate pedophile" or "virtuous pedophile", but we'd much rather people think to ask any time they hear "pedophile": Which kind of pedophile?

And to reiterate, I wish no one attacked you by falsely invoking pedophilia.

Ethan

 

[Windcaler]

More representation of LGBT characters would be fine. I personally would like to see more controversial genders such as Transexuals explored in a respectful manner since they seem to be the most under represented. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Naoto Shirigami (Persona 4) but her crossdressing isnt even gender confusion its more about how people saw her in a male dominated profession. The only other example I can think of is Gwyndolin (Dark souls) who was born male but raised as one of Lord Gwyns daughters due to his ability with magic and association with the moon (whatever that means). I dont think we really need more gay characters since I can think of several off the top of my head but to make everything equal we do need more representation of transgender and especially bisexual ones

I think the ideal situation would be having more Blank slate style characters like the wanderer (Fallout 3), dragonborn (Skyrim), or chosen undead (Dark souls). This would allow the player to design the character to their style. If they want to be male they can be. If they want to be female they can be. If they want to be heterosexual they can be. If they want to be bisexual they can be. If they want to be homosexual they can be. Then if people want to explore transgender situations it could be done purely through roleplaying and some clothing choices

Then again there is something to be said for just not knowing. I can think of few characters where their gender and sexuality made the game more interesting. I can also think of a few examples where knowing might detract from the overall experience

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

snip

sorry, I am going to interject here. A little bit of political correctness/sensitivity is a great thing, but (at least in NY state) there is far too much of it, to the point where it ENCOURAGES dishonesty, fear, and racism. I have personally seen someone get fired for catching a minority stealing from the store, only to have that person turn around and label them a racist (actually i have seen it a few times). Why? political correctness.

I have worked in Alabama, the heart of the "southern" stereotype, and you know what? They are LESS racist than the people in NY state, one of the most politically correct states in the country. why? because extreme political correctness BREEDS RACISM. The people in Alabama are not politically correct at all, yet they are much nicer, respectful, and honest than the politically correct areas.

Sensitivity is a noble aspect, but like everything else too much of it is a bad thing. Right now we have too much sensitivity and not enough honesty, respect, or common sense.

And no, I am not a republican.

I'm not sure I'd put that down to political correctness...Positive discrimination like that is a problem, in fact, letting someone walk away from a crime because of their sex, race or orientation IS politically incorrect. Because you are not trying to lessen the social problems that occur between cultures, you're either enforcing them, or creating new ones.

I think that the words political correct have gotten such a strange meaning lately: Positive discrimination, like you mentioned or, as the previous poster, an excuse for being tactless.

when in fact (according to the dictionary) it's conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated.

The officers/judge/state who let the thief walk were using practices that could offend political sensibilities.

Of course, it's an awfully broad and undefined term, which is why I think that maybe we should just stop using it at all. You can be rude, you can be nice, you can be racist, you can be unfair...you know, we've got plenty of other words.

There is nothing respectful or logical in suggesting that gay people are in the same boat as paedophiles. To then claim that you're only doing it because you're generally not 'politically correct' is pretty far from honest. If this guy had come said "I'm sorry if I insulted anyone" or even just continued the argument, then sure, whatever, his problem. But by adding the words politically correct, he was trying to shield his arguments from people who were openly insulted by what he said.

That's why I stepped in, because if you are going to be rude (and I still think he was) then don't try to hide behind a vague term implying other people's positive discrimination. The fact that some people can go overboard when it comes to sensibilities is no reason to become unsensitive to these issues as some kind of...balance?

 

[Faladorian]

In a lot of games your sexuality either means nothing, or isn't implied at all.

For example, a game like, say, Oblivion. Your character's sexual disposition doesn't matter at all. You can make it whatever the hell you want, because everyone in Cyrodiil is basically asexual (except that one necrophiliac lady in the imperial city).

But then you have games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age that just... suck with not just gay relationships, but relationships in general.

Spoiler: My experience with Dragon Age II

Hawk: Hi there Merill
Merill: Oh hi, Hawke. How's it going?
Hawk: A lot better now that you're here.
Merill: Oh, you're swee--

BLACK SCREEN FADE OUT

Merill: I LOVE YOU IM GLAD WE FUCKED I WANNA MOVE IN WITH YOU BECAUSE WE'RE LOVERS NOW.
Hawke: Umm... isn't it a little soon for that?
Merill: I FUCKING HATE YOU

BioWare is awful, AWFUL about relationships.


One game I will commend because of the absolute who-gives-a-shit attitude towards homosexuality is Fable.

It doesn't matter one bit if you fancy guys or girls, you can pick up anybody you like, anywhere you like. And it's not like the FCC steps in and says OKAY YOU CAN FLIRT WITH GUYS IF YOURE A GUY BUT NO MARRIAGE! No. You can marry a guy when you're a guy, and you can have sex with him until the world ends and the game doesn't give half a flying crap.

---

That's one thing I have to commend Fable for. Although I liked Mass Effect better than Fable, by quite a large margin.

 

[Razentsu]

I came away from Persona 4 thinking Kanji was more likely bisexual than anything else. He's actually one of my favorite characters from that game. It is probably the best the topic of sexual identity has ever been addressed in a mainstream game.

In my opinion games don't need more gay for the sake of it, they need more gay where it feels natural to the story. If you want your game to have commentary on contemporary culture it works well.

I agree.

Kanji is awesome because he was not designed for the sake of gay, but instead designed to make Persona 4 a more interesting game. It was not the fact that Kanji was either bi or gay that made him interesting, but rather Kanji was made interesting because of how he developed as he realized that fact.

Have gay for the sake of the game, as having gay for the sake of gay will likely result in token gay characters.

 

[II2]

I DO consider videogames art, but even the artisest of non-game-gaming is still mechanically bound to a finite, quantized rules system driving an interactive, spacial audiovisual simulation... All very good for doing what videogames are already doing, but exploring nuanced human experience and emotion is a problem...

So... "What would a Wood Elf know of the TAINT?"

Jokes aside, that does mean that the means used to describe gay characters in games is largly adapted from other media. If a character isn't performing mechanically gay simulation, we just have the story ques to give a broader context to their actions, which is why the best examples can be found in well developed character centric "Party" RPGs and visual novels. Open world RPGs feature them too, sure, but generally most people would agree you don't get the same "feel" for them as companions or player characters as in a more linear narrative.

So, to use game mechanics in a literally gay way, without turning it into a straight up (yes, ha ha) sex simulation, my best guess would be a pitch for something like an RPG / Managment sim where the player is the event organizer of a pride parade / pride week ceremonies. An hectic business and politics sim dealing with juggling all the different and conflicting needs of LGBT sects and interest groups participating and still trying to turn a profit and keep things in order seems like as best a way to explore GAY in a game, if that's a developers real intent.

I think if you're going to deal with an issue like that, you might as well make a meal out of it, rather than just tacking on an arbitrary queer NPC in an RPG either for yuks or to meet some nebulous progressive quota.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Was just playing Guild wars 2 ...
So Caithe is gay .. so what?
Are the writers supposed to make a big deal of it?

It's a private thing, and if it should become relevant to the story, you find out.
Otherwise, you don't.

Of course it doesn't have to be a big deal. They just barely exist in the medium.

I don't recall the OP saying it had to be a big deal, but it would be nice for gay lead characters to exist. Many sources suggest 30% of the world is gay. Looking at games? You'd think it was 0.5%.

What constitutes making it a big deal, btw? I think a female lead can say "...She's kinda hot." in reference to some female NPC and not make all that huge a deal of it, and just make her crush on her a running gag whenever they interact. Stuff like that doesn't happen, ya know? It adds a bit of variety to the cast, writing, humor, drama, etc.

Ok, let me put it this way.
Is the vault dweller from Fallout 3 straight or gay?
Is Roland from Borderlands straight or gay?
Is Ryu from street fighter straight or gay?

You don't know, because it's not relevant to the game in question.
Fallout 3 because how the character acts is for you to decide .. and if you're into abusing slaves like Clover or Charon, err, get a mod.
Borderlands is about shooting stuff. And getting loot. Sexual orientation is not relevant.
Street Fighter is about throwing fireballs out of your hands and 20 foot jump-kicks. Ok, Dhalsim, Ken, and Guile are married, but even then they're flying around getting into fights and rarely home. What does that tell you?

My point is, why are you assuming everyone is straight?
The very fact that you're making that assumption unless the lore corrects you means those instances are already a big deal.

 

[Lieju]

Obviously it would be great to have more gay characters.

There will always be games where sexuality (gay or straight) is not going to play any part, but especially when we are talking about games where you can roleplay and have an effect on the way the story unfolds, including romantic interests, why not give the possibility to make your character gay?

And non-heterosexual people exist, why should they be absent from games?

 

[Lieju]

With the massive over saturation of homosexuality in games now, if anything it needs to go the other way because there is disproportionate representation.

Where? Can you point to me to the direction of those games?

 

[TehCookie]

Street Fighter is about throwing fireballs out of your hands and 20 foot jump-kicks. Ok, Dhalsim, Ken, and Guile are married, but even then they're flying around getting into fights and rarely home. What does that tell you?

Obviously if Ken rather spend his time with Ryu getting hot and sweaty I have bad news for his wife.

I support gays in gaming because I have a not so hidden agenda, I want more male romances in games. I honestly don't care what sex the character is. If the game doesn't have any romance don't shoehorn it in, it doesn't matter and the MC is whatever you want him to be. If a game seems too straight just put on some yaoi goggles.

 

[BeeGeenie]

Is a character only gay when they announce themselves as such? There are far more completely neutral characters, as in characters who don't specifically describe their sexual orientation, than characters who come out as openly straight. If a character never mentions their preference, then why should it be presumed they are straight? Gay people aren't all flamboyant stereotypes. By adding "more gay" into games, I can only imagine this as pandering towards those stereotypes, and I really don't think games need any more of that.

^Pretty much this. Unless it has some actual bearing on the story of the game then it's just unnecessary pandering, and likely to be a stereotype.
I mean, If I meet someone for the first time in real life, and they say "Hi, nice to meet you, by the way I'm gay" I'll probably respond by saying "good for you" because I really couldn't care less.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Is a character only gay when they announce themselves as such? There are far more completely neutral characters, as in characters who don't specifically describe their sexual orientation, than characters who come out as openly straight. If a character never mentions their preference, then why should it be presumed they are straight? Gay people aren't all flamboyant stereotypes. By adding "more gay" into games, I can only imagine this as pandering towards those stereotypes, and I really don't think games need any more of that.

^Pretty much this. Unless it has some actual bearing on the story of the game then it's just unnecessary pandering, and likely to be a stereotype.
I mean, If I meet someone for the first time in real life, and they say "Hi, nice to meet you, by the way I'm gay" I'll probably respond by saying "good for you" because I really couldn't care less.

This actually happened to a friend of mine.
Someone messaged him basically saying "hi, I am gay".
He did not know the other person, nor did he want to afterwards.
He does not hate gay people, but he found that to be quite obnoxious.

 

[Risingblade]

Anders from dragon age 2 was gay, and an amazing character.

I liked him better before he turned gay, dude used to be hillarious :/

 

[Havegun]

Just a thought on the RPG's that 'allow' the protagonist to be homosexual: Doesn't that imply that homosexuality is a choice, which, from my understanding, is a sentiment that homosexuals don't approve of?

 

[kortin]

If you are designing a game that ISN'T a VN or something similar and you place a huge importance on sexuality, you're doing it ABSOLUTELY wrong. Sexuality should not affect the character in the slightest.