Poll: Gaming is "...juvenile, silly, and intellectually lazy" says Jonathan Blow.

[Wayneguard]

I'm fairly certain that I would hate this guy if I knew him. He strikes me as trying way too hard to seem aloof and above the common rabble's pursuit of material wealth. I guarantee you that if he ever came down with prostate cancer or his new condo ever burned to the ground, he would be very thankful to be out of debt and on solid financial footing. He doesn't like money... *pfft* liar.

 

[The Great Purtabo]

He thinks modern, AAA games have become intellectually lazy, and can you really disagree? The writing, voice acting, and other production values keep increasing, but gameplay is in a pretty sad state. And even the writing is still pretty bad compared to film. There are exceptions obviously, lots of them. But come on. Have you played Call of Duty single player? Or Uncharted? Even supposedly nerdy, technical games like RPGs have been seriously dumbed down over the years. See Mass Effect. Strategy is probably the only genre left that regularly requires higher thought functions from the player.

Naming the worst possible examples is pointless, I could have said the same thing 10 years ago, saying "Oh look, bubsy 3d is really bad, so all 3d games are terrible!; the generalization of games as juvenile is the point of contention. You can say "OH LOOK! BIG BUDGET MOVIES ARE SILLY AND JUVENILE BECAUSE OF TRANSFORMERS!"

If you label AAA games as juvenile, then you are asinine, similarly stating "Oh there are exceptions to this of course" weakens your argument. Gaming has always had its completely brainless AAA games, and it has always had its challenging and insightful AAA games. Complaining and overblowing shit that it out of your hands is useless, and generalizing makes you look like a twat.

What exactly constitutes so called "higher thought functions"? The only games that I can think of that require little conscious thought is Call of duty, as you play mostly in a state of semi-lucidness and reaction, Are you talking about strategy? because if I remember correctly, most games require strategy; analyzing level design, combining abilities... etc etc. So do you never have to think about your actions in RPGs? or are those games lacking in the thought department?

 

[Sarge034]

Oh my god, Jon Blow never said anything like that. He's been a huge supporter of indie games and has given a lot of praise to games that you probably wouldn't consider "artistic", such as Super Meat Boy.

What do you mean? I'm serious. Is this a jab at us "not being able to recognize art" or is this just saying that one indie platformer developer has supported another indie platformer?

He thinks modern, AAA games have become intellectually lazy, and can you really disagree? The writing, voice acting, and other production values keep increasing, but gameplay is in a pretty sad state. And even the writing is still pretty bad compared to film. There are exceptions obviously, lots of them. But come on. Have you played Call of Duty single player? Or Uncharted?

Thank you for asking as this was in fact going to be my point. All of the newer CoD games have moral and ethical questions that they force you to face. CoD4 had the nuke, WaW had the unarmed Nazis when you play as the Russians, MW2 had "No Russian" (the airport massacre), BO had the whole mind control/PTSD hallucination thing, and MW3 had an interesting take on revenge (RIP Cpt. Price). If you take a moment to think about these things you start to learn something about yourself, and that is the only definition I can think of for art. Something that forces introspection on the viewer after observing the piece. As a broader rebuttal I loved the hell out of the ME series up until the last 15 minutes of ME3, but look at what we are talking about in the next section...

Even supposedly nerdy, technical games like RPGs have been seriously dumbed down over the years. See Mass Effect.

Nerdy... Really? Why u ostracize people like that? However, I don't think RPG is the appropriate classification for ME. The best descriptor would actually be a space opera. You can change how things go down in an RPG. You could, for example, help the evil side dominate the story that the dungeon master had planned out. I assume that DnD is what we are talking about when we say RPG because there are no true RPG video games. They all have a set story that you have to follow and that, by definition, negates some people's role playing experience. I personally think that ME3 should be the new standard for friendly and romantic relationships in games. It felt real when Garrus and I were bro-ing each other through hard times and it felt real when my girl was supporting me. That in its own should qualify as art.

Strategy is probably the only genre left that regularly requires higher thought functions from the player.

I will rebuttal this in three sections.

Single player
> The story is hit or miss with RTS games, but they are always slow simply due to the delivery method. I agree that RTS games require a different type of higher thought process, but this is also the difference between chess and say... clue. Both require higher thought process but one is tactical while the other is inquisitive.

Multiplayer
>I agree that this takes the higher thought process described above, but when something becomes formulaic it is no longer art in my eyes. I know this sounds hypocritical with my supporting CoD single player but hear me out. CoD is a continuation of a story, while any RTS multiplayer match turns into who can "zerg rush" whom the fastest. It is no longer about the game of chess, it becomes a formulaic race to turn all of your pawns into queens and win. In my mind this actually makes RTS multiplayer require less higher thought processes.

Wut? lol...
>Technically any problem solving and/or pattern recognition qualifies as requiring higher thought functions so all genres qualify. Yes all of them. Even Gears of War has problem solving and pattern recognition.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Now, don't get me wrong, JoBlo is pretty pretentious, but he's not being "disrespectful of the medium" when he says most games are trying to be shitty action movies. That's not an unfair assessment of a lot of AAA titles.

Like wat?

I can only think of ,outside of FMV games, MGS. Heavy Rain if you really stretch it lol.

As a rule of thumb, if IGN/Gamespot/etc. use "cinematic" as an adjective when describing a AAA action game, the game is trying to be a shitty action movie on some level. QTEs, overly scripted segments, excessive cinematics, etc.

 

[Halo Fanboy]

Now, don't get me wrong, JoBlo is pretty pretentious, but he's not being "disrespectful of the medium" when he says most games are trying to be shitty action movies. That's not an unfair assessment of a lot of AAA titles.

Like wat?

I can only think of ,outside of FMV games, MGS. Heavy Rain if you really stretch it lol.

As a rule of thumb, if IGN/Gamespot/etc. use "cinematic" as an adjective when describing a AAA action game, the game is trying to be a shitty action movie on some level. QTEs, overly scripted segments, excessive cinematics, etc.

Okay I googled "Gamespot IGN Cinematic" and didn't get anything useful. I prefer real examples to rule of thumb.

EDIT: when did gs, ign become arbitrators of cinematic-y anyway?

 

[Goofguy]

I don't get it, why is it portrayed as "us and them"? Can't someone who likes Braid also like CoD and AC? What about vice versa?

And frankly, I don't know what to make of Blow's "I'm too cool for money" attitude. For a guy who scoffs at it, he'll gladly take our money to buy his nice things even if he "doesn't own that many". Just because you view money in a different way, doesn't make you any less of a millionaire there, bucko.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Now, don't get me wrong, JoBlo is pretty pretentious, but he's not being "disrespectful of the medium" when he says most games are trying to be shitty action movies. That's not an unfair assessment of a lot of AAA titles.

Like wat?

I can only think of ,outside of FMV games, MGS. Heavy Rain if you really stretch it lol.

As a rule of thumb, if IGN/Gamespot/etc. use "cinematic" as an adjective when describing a AAA action game, the game is trying to be a shitty action movie on some level. QTEs, overly scripted segments, excessive cinematics, etc.

Okay I googled "Gamespot IGN Cinematic" and didn't get anything useful. I prefer real examples to rule of thumb.

EDIT: when did gs, ign become arbitrators of cinematic-y anyway?

It's more that "cinematic" is a very specific sort of praise that, like "streamlined," is an indication the game will probably suck. You see it get applied to games like CoD a lot, for instance.

 

[Vault101]

this that jerk who made braid?....pffffft yeah whatever

now back to my horrible AAA games

 

[Lonan]

How about the guy actually makes a good game before getting the right be such a pretentious ****?

Second.

Braid was a'right, nothing special.

Talk about an inflated sense of self worth.

Ah, but you see, your mortal mind was simply unable to comprehend the greatness of Joe Blow's game.

 

[Halo Fanboy]

Now, don't get me wrong, JoBlo is pretty pretentious, but he's not being "disrespectful of the medium" when he says most games are trying to be shitty action movies. That's not an unfair assessment of a lot of AAA titles.

Like wat?

I can only think of ,outside of FMV games, MGS. Heavy Rain if you really stretch it lol.

As a rule of thumb, if IGN/Gamespot/etc. use "cinematic" as an adjective when describing a AAA action game, the game is trying to be a shitty action movie on some level. QTEs, overly scripted segments, excessive cinematics, etc.

Okay I googled "Gamespot IGN Cinematic" and didn't get anything useful. I prefer real examples to rule of thumb.

EDIT: when did gs, ign become arbitrators of cinematic-y anyway?

It's more that "cinematic" is a very specific sort of praise that, like "streamlined," is an indication the game will probably suck. You see it get applied to games like CoD a lot, for instance.

Well you're missing the second half of the equation, what shitty action movies are we comparing to. I'm not a movie watcher.

Only CoD movie comparison I've heard is Saving private Ryan for the D-day part. That's a non-shitty movie from what i understand.

 

[Mr.Squishy]

Jon? I'd like to quote the late king of pop. "If you wanna change the world, then look in the mirror and make a change" - Badly paraphrased from memory. But basically, my point is, keep doing what you want others to do. Be an example of how to do things right, someone to look up to, someone who does something constructive rather than just tearing down others. Ya know? Please? Also, I'd like it if you could tone down the 'indie messiah' complex.

 

[scorptatious]

I don't get it, why is it portrayed as "us and them"? Can't someone who likes Braid also like CoD and AC? What about vice versa?

I agree completely. Just because you like certain games doesn't mean you should despite other types of games. For example: I love Shadow of the Colossus to death. But I also enjoy playing games like Angry Birds.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

Of course they are, but it sure as hell beats drinking.

Everyone needs a little outlet for the shit that life throws at them, and it just so happens that a lot of people find gaming to be that outlet.

Some people find theirs to be something productive like gardening or cleaning, and some people find it to be alcohol or hard drugs or sex, there's no shame needing something to relax you/inebriate you after a day of work.

 

[Vault101]

As a rule of thumb, if IGN/Gamespot/etc. use "cinematic" as an adjective when describing a AAA action game, the game is trying to be a shitty action movie on some level. QTEs, overly scripted segments, excessive cinematics, etc.

but they are better than shitty action movies

a shitty action movie has got what going for it? a few action scenes..mabye a half amusing plot if its lucky

a game has that AND the fact that its actually enjoyable rather than painful, of coarse theres no need to set the bar low but for me its the difference between trying somthing ou and staying the hell away

ans even then..why couldnt you put somthing as cool as inception in game form?

and movies are not "shity" because they ahve action in them (but you probably know that already)

 

[MammothBlade]

He made a few good points, especially about blockbuster shooters such as Call of Duty, which are not in the slightest mentally stimulating. And this gem:

He has famously branded so-called social games like FarmVille ?evil? because their whole raison d?être is to maximize corporate profits by getting players to check in obsessively and buy useless in-game items. (In one talk, Blow managed to compare FarmVille?s developers to muggers, alcoholic-enablers, Bernie Madoff, and brain-colonizing ant parasites.)

I couldn't agree more with that.

However, the rest of his approach is quite abrasive. I didn't see too many examples of what he would consider an intellectual game. No mention of Portal, for instance.

Bearing in mind that Braid was apparently quite good, I'll be interested to see if The Witness lives up to its expectations, or whether Blow is afflicted with hubris and narcissism. I like mystery/puzzle games if they have an interesting, compelling story. I have to admit, the screenshots and details so far look amazing.

 

[wadark]

I think part of the problem is how we define art in the context of games. I mean we have reviewers using words like "artsy" in the context of these lower-budget, indie games like Braid and Limbo.

So it seems that Art has become a genre; it has become a descriptor of style rather than of quality. Therefore, we spend all day calling Braid Art, and that's just a confirmation of Jonathan Blow's ego. So its easy, then, for him to look down from this Ivory tower and proclaim that his work is art, and therefore he's above the commoner, and proclaims everything else as crap.

I liked Braid's gameplay, but found the story incomprehensible.

But reading through some of the responses in this thread and seeing phrases like "art games" being used is an ill omen. Its that kind of usage that causes the "artist" to get an inflated ego.

 

[TheGreatAndPowerfulZOG]

Oh my god, Jon Blow never said anything like that. He's been a huge supporter of indie games and has given a lot of praise to games that you probably wouldn't consider "artistic", such as Super Meat Boy.

What do you mean? I'm serious. Is this a jab at us "not being able to recognize art" or is this just saying that one indie platformer developer has supported another indie platformer?

I mean that games being artistic, whatever that means, is not the point. Jon Blow isn't saying that games need to be artistic. He says games need to get better. And fine, if you think indie platform devs are biased in favor of each other or something, another example of a game that Blow has heaped praise on is Counter Strike. Not exactly an art game.

He thinks modern, AAA games have become intellectually lazy, and can you really disagree? The writing, voice acting, and other production values keep increasing, but gameplay is in a pretty sad state. And even the writing is still pretty bad compared to film. There are exceptions obviously, lots of them. But come on. Have you played Call of Duty single player? Or Uncharted? Even supposedly nerdy, technical games like RPGs have been seriously dumbed down over the years. See Mass Effect. Strategy is probably the only genre left that regularly requires higher thought functions from the player.

Naming the worst possible examples is pointless, I could have said the same thing 10 years ago, saying "Oh look, bubsy 3d is really bad, so all 3d games are terrible!; the generalization of games as juvenile is the point of contention. You can say "OH LOOK! BIG BUDGET MOVIES ARE SILLY AND JUVENILE BECAUSE OF TRANSFORMERS!"

If you label AAA games as juvenile, then you are asinine, similarly stating "Oh there are exceptions to this of course" weakens your argument. Gaming has always had its completely brainless AAA games, and it has always had its challenging and insightful AAA games. Complaining and overblowing shit that it out of your hands is useless, and generalizing makes you look like a twat.

Really? what are these deep, meaningful AAA games? Human Revolution, lol? The only mainstream game that I considered great from last year was Dark Souls. Allowing for exceptions doesn't hurt my case, because they're so few and far between. On the other hand, indie games have been a gold mine. Journey, Bastion, From Dust, The Binding of Isaac, Dear Esther, and that's just in the past 12 months. Add Minecraft, if you count the official release. So show me, where are these "challenging, insightful AAA games"?

What exactly constitutes so called "higher thought functions"? The only games that I can think of that require little conscious thought is Call of duty, as you play mostly in a state of semi-lucidness and reaction, Are you talking about strategy? because if I remember correctly, most games require strategy; analyzing level design, combining abilities... etc etc. So do you never have to think about your actions in RPGs? or are those games lacking in the thought department?

Call of Duty isn't even close to being the worst. Look at the majority of time spent in Skyrim - walking through basically the same dungeon over and over, killing the same draugr, running blindly toward the objective marker for your "reward", like Bethesda's trained lab rat. What I mean by higher thought functions is gameplay that doesn't just rely on operant conditioning. This has nothing to do with writing, I'm talking about game design.

 

[wadark]

I don't get it, why is it portrayed as "us and them"? Can't someone who likes Braid also like CoD and AC? What about vice versa?

Because that's how pretentious people see these debates. Their moderate success in creating what they define as art (and then having the word Art heaped on them by reviewers) inflates the ego and gives them the idea that they are "better" than the rest.

Its the same logic that causes movies like The King's Speech to win oscars while so-called "genre" movies are completely ignored.

 

[Frankster]

Interesting fanfiction but whose mary sue character is this?

I look forward to chapter 2 and the upcoming "The Witness" completely changing the way we think about videogames and the cultural revolution that will ensue.

 

[Vault101]

Really? what are these deep, meaningful AAA games? Human Revolution, lol? The only mainstream game that I considered great from last year was Dark Souls. Allowing for exceptions doesn't hurt my case, because they're so few and far between. On the other hand, indie games have been a gold mine. Journey, Bastion, From Dust, The Binding of Isaac, Dear Esther, and that's just in the past 12 months. Add Minecraft, if you count the official release. So show me, where are these "challenging, insightful AAA games"?

.

while I wouldnt say "deep and meaningful" there is quality stuff out there (whats so fucking brilliant about dark souls anway? ok....ok I get it, it challange and bleakness means reward and warm fuzzie feelings all round, but jsut because a game doest punch you in the balls doesnt make it less of a game)

thease games arnt anymore "art" than AAA games..its just style, journey was nice and all but fuck, it doesnt hold a candle to Deus ex or mass effect for me