peruvianskys said:
runic knight said:
If I might interject here, what would be the difference between someone "defending objectification" as you put here and someone arguing that you are wrong? Seriously, you present this as though the sole reason people are debating this is because some guys see your proclamation that this is objectification and sexualization and dislike that. Kinda a disingenuous representation of things in the thread to be honest.
Objectification and misogyny are social phenomenons that exist or does not exist regardless of our opinions. Whether or not something expresses male supremacy is not a matter of opinion or personal belief.
I am not saying "I am offended". I am not saying "I don't like this." I am saying that this *is* objectification, as a matter of fact, and that to argue against that factual statement is to either be ignorant or intentionally dishonest.
Hmm, let me try again then. You were trying to say
"this is objectification and that is bad."
Is that right then? Good, the rest of my reply remains as it was. Glad we could clear that confusion up. tell me though, what was cleared up here, exactly?
Because I agree that objectification is sort of limited to being or not being what it is, but you have not yet shown that objectification of fictional characters actually equals hatred, instead wording everything as either a morality claim or just blanket opinion of it being "bad"
Hell, even running with your implied assertion that the game promotes "male supremacy" (you will have to actually back that up you know, not just assume we all see what you see here), you STILL have to demonstrate that male supremacy represents an actual hatred. Because where I am standing, even if you proved that claim (big maybe), the idea that it has to represent a hatred is sort of a stretch when you realize that not everyone might agree that "this is better" means the same thing as "I hate this"
Actually, it comes off more like you are objecting to sexualization on the basis of sexualization itself rather then any contextually relevant argument about how this game itself hates women.
Objectifying women through sexualization combined with violence is an expression of woman-hate. In a world where women were not systematically dehumanized and exploited for male sexual pleasure, depictions like this would not be acceptable or even comprehensible.
And....no. Sorry, but you have to actually demonstrate that your claim has any bearing. How is objectification of woman in this instance inherently different then the objectification of men and how does it represent a "hatred"? You haven't actually said or done anything to show this is true other then sort of insist it is.
Yes, we live in a terrible world where terrible things happen, but what does that matter in the least in this instance? I think you seem to be trying to say that because bad things happen to women in the world that it is therefore wrong to have them happen in fictional entertainment? Or that because bad things happen to women in the real world motivated by and thus represent an actual hatred that bad things happening to women in game must also be motivated and represent the same. Is that what you are going for as an argument here? Because, you know, that sort of falls kinda flat when you realize that not all bad representation or bad things happening to female characters are motivated the same as in real life. Hell, not all bad things that happen in real life are motivated by or representative of hatred to women either, so I fail to see where this absolute claims comes from.
You personal feelings of sexualizing and violence are, as I told others here before, noted but worthless. Sorry, but your opinion on that matter means not a lick, either to other people who don't already agree or to the game company who made this game who wanted to take up the whole grindhouse shlock feel they did.
We are not arguing over a matter of taste or personal feelings. We are in fact arguing about whether or not
The depictions of women in Hitman: Absolution express misogyny is a true statement. The truth of this statement relies heavily on facts about the video game as well as facts about sociology, history, and psychology. I am saying that the reality of the situation is that Hitman: Absolution is misogynistic, in that it expresses attitudes that dehumanize women and normalize sexualized violence against them.
Well, right off the bat I disagree that the depictions of women express misogyny at all. Sadly we seem to have run into a difference of stances here. But I have supported my claims equally to yours and now we are at an impasse since you didn't actually defend that claim, just insisted it was so. No... I suppose I should go above the demanded "burden of proof" in just denying your claim til proven and actually defend my stance that you are wrong here..
Ok, how about this, the game is not misogynist as it demonstrates no actual hatred towards women as a gender. The use of female characters play on old tropes that while unflattering, do not necessitate there be a motivation of dislike or hatred in order to be used and as such attempting to claim that such uses of tropes, or even sexualization outright, is overreaching of the highest degree and presuming to know the motivations of the choices made in order to fit a preconceived notion of it being sexist.
In short, contrary to people insisting it is fact, the claims of violence against female characters in games, or the objectification of female characters is in no way actual proof for a claim of misogyny or motivation, especially when more benign motivations exist to explain the choice, thereby making the absolute statement about such usage demonstrably false.
To get more on your own specific points, you claim the game objectifies (I'll agree), sexualizes (I'll agree) and even dehumanizes (I'll disagree) female characters. The problem is that even if all were true, this does not express actual hatred of women, especially when you realize that the game also objectifies, sexualizes and dehumanizes male characters as well. This is done in a different way then female characters, but "it is different" does not mean it is not an important point to address. And it is indeed important here because the claim is a hatred "against women" specifically. Tell me, how is something against only one group when it happens to both, even if the method of it happening is different?
If I plan to kill too groups of chickens, I cut the heads off of one and I drown the other, can you honestly say I hate one group of chickens because you personally find one method less tasteful then the other? Hell, knowing the point of killing both groups was for some delicious chicken dinner, can you even claim I hate either group?
Honestly, this still boils down to your own personal moral stance on what is or is not right and trying to use that to dictate that you know a motivation or intend behind the actions you find distasteful. In this case, trying to claim that sexualization and objectification of fictional game npc characters is somehow signifying a hatred to an entire group of people who share a trait with the npc characters. This is why people argue that by your own logic, the game must hate men because you kill them by the scores.
The game hates no one, and nor would I assume do the developers. They just do something you object against for reasons you do not want to address or simply do not care about. Or are you perhaps trying to argue that the definition of hatred being a strong dislike and re-vileness towards is not the same word you meant to use here? Because at the end of the day, the game does nothing to show a dislike or re-vile towards women when you realize that not all women would agree with you that fictional female NPC being sexualized or objectified is bad in a game where male fictional NPC are also objectified and sexualized, even if in different ways.
