Poll: Hitman Absolution hates women

[Terminal Blue]

- The protagonist

I think after 4 games we probably kind of knew the protagonist, what little there is to know. I mean, he's a bald dude who murders people. I don't think I need to see him engage in epic kung fu and rocket launcher battles with nuns to confirm that.

- The protagonist's shift of allegiance

Again, kind of a natural follow on from the previous game (when the organization he worked for was destroyed). After all, if you hadn't played the previous games why would you care? That's the point at which "I'm a bald dude who murders people" takes over.

- Some of the antagonists

Okay, I'll give you this. They're just really stupid antagonists who don't seem to have any place in a hitman game.

Blood money had sexy lady assassins. I distinctly remember tossing one down an elevator shaft. The thing is, they felt like they might actually assassinate someone, you know, by doing things like blending in and trying to get close to their targets innocuously. Actually, I felt they bought really well into the game's whole conceit, because generally they would get you to follow or come close to them by promisihg some kind of sexy thing and then kill you in a unavoidable cutscene. Agent 47, the character is generally implied to be asexual, or at best to have an extremely perverse sexuality. Punishing the player for going against that actually really worked for me.

- The setting and theme (outrageous gritty violence superimposed on kitschy Americana)

This is kind of where it falls down for me again, because to me "gritty violence" is not "epic kung fu battles and action movie gunplay with rocket launchers". Violence in the games is far more gritty, it's often quick, one-sided and plays more like a gangster movie than a hollywood action blockbuster. As for kitschy Americana, Blood Money did that and it worked so I can't blame Absolution for trying to steal it's shtick, but before that the series actually had more of a James Bond tone, complete with a full range of "exotic" locations.

Okay. I have to go to dinner, but there's an incomplete list of responses. Also, I did mention another piece of advertising (weirdly, the more controversial one - which I was actually fine with) and maybe I would have bought it if the prevailing opinion given to me hadn't been a scream of "BETRAYAL!" That said, the trailer was a massive hype killer and put me in completely the wrong mindset.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I'm basing my opinion on nothing because I don't have an opinion of the game. I have an opinion on PARTS of the game, specifically the tone and portrayal in those parts. Just because I dislike one aspect of a game doesn't mean I hate the entire thing. How can I hate it? I know nothing about it, for all I know it's great. I LOVE Metro Last Light despite how awfully sexist it can be.

Though I will take a look at it and get back to you.

 

[Timpossible]

Hate Women? Nope.

Is it lazy and unfunny by using stupid stereotypes, clichés and sexist jokes (not because they hate women, but because it's easy)? Yes. The whole game is lazy in that way. The entire atmosphere of the game feels like "We want to be as gritty and exploitation as possible!" and they wanted to achieve that by beeing as inironicly cliché as possible.

 

[runic knight]

You're not in the strip club to derive some fucking pleasure from it. You're supposed to HATE the place. Hate what it is, and who runs it. So you can justify throwing them off a windowsill. If anything you're there to assist the strippers in the club. To get them out from under the thumb of their pyscho boss.

Let's not be disingenuous here.

47 is never given the objective or directive to save or help the strippers in the strip club. That was never his goal at all.
47 isn't a white knight riding in on a big white horse, coming to save the damsels in distress.

In fact, it's highly likely that once the strip club owner is killed, his underboss or second-in-command will take over, and nothing changes for the strippers.

All this is pretty true, carry on.
The game never paints 47 as anything more then a murderer for hire til he goes rogue and part of his "appeal" as a character is he doesn't care about anyone, any gender and only cares about completing the mission.

why do people keep saying it's ok for the examples given to have happened because plenty of guys die as well?

Because of this:

You are aware that the use of that counterpoint has never been a "so what, it doesn't matter" so much as it has been "it affects everyone so you can't claim it affecting one gender is somehow more special."
The argument is that claiming sexism for it is demonstrably false.
Never liked that strip in particular, simplifies things far too much. Maybe if it showed the game company unable to give out food without setting people on fire first to represent how everyone sacrifices on the ideal game they want when they participate in the free market provided games made by others instead of making the games themselves the way they want...
For a quick gag it works, but as an actual commentary about what people use the rebuttal, it simplifies things to the point of making anyone who uses the strip as a rebuttal look like they don't actually understand the issue in the least.

 

[C.S.Strowbridge]

...And now you're the one ignoring context of the matter.

No I'm not. I have a funny feeling trying to explain it to you will be a waste of time, but here it goes.

The context of the shower kill is your target is a high-ranking member of an organization, one that is supposedly highly skilled. Yet the plot reduces her to a sex object in a shower before you kill her. She is stripped of her agency and abilities before you kill her, just so you can advance the plot. When women are rarely shown having agency in media, taking away a woman's agency and killing her to advance the plot for a male character is very problematic.

This isn't the only instance of this either. There are a group of sexy nuns that are there to be ogled and killed and who advance the plot. You are never encouraged to ogle the male agents before shooting them.

There is a highly competent woman who, when she leaves the room, is called a ***** but is described as doable.

 

[C.S.Strowbridge]

You are aware that the use of that counterpoint has never been a "so what, it doesn't matter" so much as it has been "it affects everyone so you can't claim it affecting one gender is somehow more special."

Then how come I never see that "counterpoint" used as a "point"? If you were correct, then men would bring it up when it happens and not wait till a woman points out sexism.

It's like MRAs who never bringing up gender discrimination problems males suffer from, unless they are using it to attack women who bring up misogyny.

Furthermore, when was the last time a video game or movie sexualized a male guard before you were supposed to kill them?

 

[cypher-raige]

You are aware that the use of that counterpoint has never been a "so what, it doesn't matter" so much as it has been "it affects everyone so you can't claim it affecting one gender is somehow more special."

Then how come I never see that "counterpoint" used as a "point"? If you were correct, then men would bring it up when it happens and not wait till a woman points out sexism.

It's like MRAs who never bringing up gender discrimination problems males suffer from, unless they are using it to attack women who bring up misogyny.

Furthermore, when was the last time a video game or movie sexualized a male guard before you were supposed to kill them?

Because men usually suck it up and don't complain.

Bringing up male problems is supposed to put things in perspective for middle-class feminists who complain they are second class citizens.

 

[runic knight]

You are aware that the use of that counterpoint has never been a "so what, it doesn't matter" so much as it has been "it affects everyone so you can't claim it affecting one gender is somehow more special."

Then how come I never see that "counterpoint" used as a "point"? If you were correct, then men would bring it up when it happens and not wait till a woman points out sexism.

It's like MRAs who never bringing up gender discrimination problems males suffer from, unless they are using it to attack women who bring up misogyny.

Furthermore, when was the last time a video game or movie sexualized a male guard before you were supposed to kill them?

Maybe because the gag of that joke being that the males don't care and don't think it is important does have some basis and is why you don't hear too much about as a topic, since in this case the males already accept the being set on fire bit as something they just have to put up with to play games they themselves don't make? You know, the idea you have to compromise on what you want that I mentioned in my last post.

I was saying why it is brought up as a counterpoint, which is to demonstrate that claims of such treatment of characters being motivated by sexism is demonstrably false. Why it isn't brought up as an issue in general is, well, A. sort of another topic as the conversation wasn't about why they are or are not talking about it, rather just that claims of sexism are greatly exaggerated, and B. has been brought up before as part of the overall concerns on poor characterization in general and is regularly mentioned in reviews and criticism of games where NPC are useless, or teammates are bullet sponge braindead.

As for examples of sexualization, what is your point to be made, exactly? I assume it is that because female characters are sexualized they are somehow worse off then males who are not as often sexualized, though that is being a bit shallow in your view of things when the counterpoint of how poorly games represent all people is not just who is sexualized more but rather then all characters, especially NPC, are very poorly characterized and grossly use story-telling short hand to do so in as little time and effort as possible. a female assassin is sexy, dangerous, and lacks motivation beyond the programmed challenge to the player for the same overall reason as a male grunt is white, dumb, pseudo-military personality, blind as a bat and lacks motivation beyond the programmed challenge to the player. Both are lazy storytelling trough quickly understood and culturally identified tropes.

Though if you'd like I could go into how it is a bit disingenuous to ask about sexualization with the assumption female characters are sexualized for males, when the point of such sexualization would be appealing to what a male would react best to (visual stimuli) and thus a side by side comparison to a male sexualized in the same way would not be the apples to apples comparison it is pretended to be when as a general understanding, visual stimuli does not affect the average women the same way it affects the average male and thus a fairer assessment of comparison to a sexualized character with less personality for a male would be an attractive male with a desired personality for a female (a fair comparison based on what actually would stimulate the particular gender, as well as fair because both are based on overall trends to make as broad appealing character as possible, be it an ideal female figure that doesn't necessarily appeal to all males or an idealized male personality that doesn't appeal to all females.)

Yet that may be going too broad from the topic about if the inanimate game hates an entire gender.

 

[runic knight]

You are aware that the use of that counterpoint has never been a "so what, it doesn't matter" so much as it has been "it affects everyone so you can't claim it affecting one gender is somehow more special."

Then how come I never see that "counterpoint" used as a "point"? If you were correct, then men would bring it up when it happens and not wait till a woman points out sexism.

It's like MRAs who never bringing up gender discrimination problems males suffer from, unless they are using it to attack women who bring up misogyny.

Furthermore, when was the last time a video game or movie sexualized a male guard before you were supposed to kill them?

Because men usually suck it up and don't complain.

Bringing up male problems is supposed to put things in perspective for middle-class feminists who complain they are second class citizens.

True, but at that point you get posts like that web strip, where not complaining (or in case of this issue in particular, not complaining about how it affects a gender isolated from the rest of the underlying issue) is mistaken for apathy for the problem as a whole.

I am sure many many people, male and female, publicly protest the lack of creativity in characterization, or the overuse of tropes in games after all.

 

[Vigormortis]

It's incredibly humorous to me how many people are passing judgement on this game; one way or another; while they openly admit to having not even played the game.

Opinion, critique, and judgement via second-hand account, especially of a piece of widely-available media, is as idiotic as it is pointless. And in some ways, disingenuous.

Perhaps people should play the game before they draw any conclusions.

 

[Fox12]

A disc made of plastic can't hate shit. Nor can a bunch of code on said disc.

I think you may need to take things a little less seriously.

[http://www.youtube.com/v/ysT_hI4mTx0?version=3&start=38&end=45&autoplay=0&hl=en_US&rel=0]

The fact is that these games present women in a demeaning way, where their sole purpose is to act as fanservice to male viewers. It's frankly misogynistic smut.

Your really bad at posting links you know that? Links to Youtubes home page. Regardless, basing off someone else who apparently got it working, its the strip club scene? You were killing one of the patrons, and there was even a speech all about how demeaning the strippers find the work and how shit the conditions are in the backroom section, as well as multiple times guards would state how few shits they have for the safety of the girls. If that was turning women into fan service, your an idiot, or are completely abandoned from reality, or much much more likely, didn't play the game. The funniest part is people use the strip club scene and not the Saints, who actually were fan service, and are my biggest complaint of the whole game (in a game that while still fantastic at what it was, betrayed the Hitman series).

Uh. No. It was the scene from Guardians of the Galaxy where Drax takes things far too literally : P

Weird, the link worked perfectly for everyone before, but you're welcome to take another look I suppose.

 

[Erttheking]

You are aware that the use of that counterpoint has never been a "so what, it doesn't matter" so much as it has been "it affects everyone so you can't claim it affecting one gender is somehow more special."

Then how come I never see that "counterpoint" used as a "point"? If you were correct, then men would bring it up when it happens and not wait till a woman points out sexism.

It's like MRAs who never bringing up gender discrimination problems males suffer from, unless they are using it to attack women who bring up misogyny.

Furthermore, when was the last time a video game or movie sexualized a male guard before you were supposed to kill them?

Because men usually suck it up and don't complain.

Bringing up male problems is supposed to put things in perspective for middle-class feminists who complain they are second class citizens.

And that's a BAD thing. The typical sterotype men are expected to live up to is that we "Man up" and I wish we could just leave it in a fucking ditch already.

And for some reason male problems only seem to matter when we try to shut up feminists.

 

[Batou667]

Also, I did mention another piece of advertising (weirdly, the more controversial one - which I was actually fine with) and maybe I would have bought it if the prevailing opinion given to me hadn't been a scream of "BETRAYAL!" That said, the trailer was a massive hype killer and put me in completely the wrong mindset.

I can't recall the other ad, but IIRC it also showcased key features like improvised blunt weapons? I realise you won't be able to reply for the next 3 days, and for what it's worth I think your suspension is bullshit.

You mentioned that a lot of the establishing (the character, the plot thus far) is unnecessary, but I got the feeling that Absolution marked a bit of a departure for the series, almost a soft-reboot, a bit like how Splinter Cell Conviction was a marked change in pace and tone from the previous four games. And as such the game was probably designed as an entry-point into the franchise for people who had missed the previous games on last-gen [*raises hand*].

The Saints are one part of the game that I can't really defend: they are very, very silly. But just to offer a tiny bit of context to people who are outraged by their inclusion:


The backstory fluff, as scant and flimsy as it is (much like the Saints' outfits) suggests that the Saints were skilled, dangerous, but universally dysfunctional young women, many of them coming from exploitative backgrounds - and also suggests that they chose their outfits themselves, to the confusion of others in the agency. Well, so goes the fictional in-game justification. The real-world, meta justification was undoubtedly something along the lines of providing an exciting or sexy aesthetic, and in my opinion this was done probably not maliciously, but with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

I'm basing my opinion on nothing because I don't have an opinion of the game. I have an opinion on PARTS of the game, specifically the tone and portrayal in those parts. Just because I dislike one aspect of a game doesn't mean I hate the entire thing. How can I hate it? I know nothing about it, for all I know it's great. I LOVE Metro Last Light despite how awfully sexist it can be.

Though I will take a look at it and get back to you.

Again, with the greatest of respect, you must have formed at least *some* opinion of the game, because you're here discussing it. Even if you're aware that what you've seen so far are isolated clips that aren't necessarily indicative of the rest of the game, you're still may not be aware of exactly how out-of-context they are. For example, you probably haven't seen many of the plentiful examples of men being depicted as horribly messed-up, or the arguably much more subtle but deep-rooted sexism involved in justifying the deaths of the two main male antagonists' female assistants.

But yeah, please do play the game and form your own opinion.

 

[EternallyBored]

The Saints are one part of the game that I can't really defend: they are very, very silly. But just to offer a tiny bit of context to people who are outraged by their inclusion:


The backstory fluff, as scant and flimsy as it is (much like the Saints' outfits) suggests that the Saints were skilled, dangerous, but universally dysfunctional young women, many of them coming from exploitative backgrounds - and also suggests that they chose their outfits themselves, to the confusion of others in the agency. Well, so goes the fictional in-game justification. The real-world, meta justification was undoubtedly something along the lines of providing an exciting or sexy aesthetic, and in my opinion this was done probably not maliciously, but with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

If I remember right, that backstory fluff was actually added to the game specifically in response to the backlash to the trailer, when it all started blowing up, they mentioned they would be working on the Saints to give them more context within the game. This is pretty much what they came up with, it's why it seems so flimsy, because it was a last second addition in response to people complaining, and the developer realizing that the in-game level wasn't going to make the trailer look any less bizarre and out-of-nowhere.

Still, at least they tried, even if it still was kind of a thematic clusterfuck in the game itself.

 

[Kargathia]

This is further exemplified by the Facebook App [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitman_Absolution#Controversies] they made to promote the game. The app let you identify Facebook friends as targets of assassination, with such identifying traits being "her hairy legs" "her small tits" "his shit hair" and "his tiny penis." You could choose a reason for killing the friend, and send the friend you've killed a personalized video that splices together their pictures on their wall with Agent 47 shooting them. Needless to say, it was taken down the same day, with an apology from IO.

I missed this when it actually happened, but it still beggars belief as to how anyone in their right mind ever could've considered this a good idea.

The Hitman series always has had a very dark sense of silly humour, and I agree that on occasion the combined result of throwaway gags have disturbing implications. Not because the developers hate anyone, but because they failed to take a step back and look at the bigger picture - hardly uncommon in triple A games.

 

[Hithel]

Would it be a shocking concept that H:A depicted women the way it did in order to sell more copies?

Or.. it could be some subtle conspiracy from the developers who hate women and manifesting this by making a number of them deadly and dangerous foes in a game they are making.

I'm going to go with Occam's razor and pick the first option here.