Poll: Homosexuality

[AnkaraTheFallen]

I appreciate that. What I hate is saying I'm Christian, then everyone getting on their high horses telling me what they think I believe in.

In general the whole "Gay vs Not-Gay" thing is never going to resolve because you are trying to redefine morality, which is something that you cannot do... Period. The extremist Christians are trying to place their concept of morality on everyone, and the extremist gay/lesbian community (Yes they do exist) is trying to force everyone to change their view of morality. Neither side is right, neither side will win.

I say let the free world do what it will, because it's not my job as a Christian to try and make the world some sort of "Heaven on Earth". I worship, and I give testimony for people who want to hear it. Those are the ONLY two jobs of a Christian in my perspective. It's only when BOTH SIDES start lump summing everyone together or yaking on about how they're right and no one else's opinion matters.
That's what gets on my nerves. NO ONE is willing to compromise.

Sadly I have to admit there are the extremists on our side as well, and the way they act actually hurts their cause more than it helps.
The majority of gay people just want to be treated like everyone else and left alone. But until the extremist people stop trying to shove their ideas in peoples faces we wont be. It's annoying that such people often scream about how they feel like religious people try to force their ideas on to others and then are doing it themselves. But again this is thankfully the minority of us.

 

[Riff Moonraker]

The truth of the situation is, a lot of people, an increasing amount, think it is immoral and quite frankly inhumane to be anti-gay. And to call sexual orientation a choice. A lot of people simply think it's unacceptable to be anti-gay, like it is unacceptable to be racist or sexist. So thinking that somehow you won't get heat for being anti-gay or holding a position that is not neutral/positive towards homosexuality/gay people, is either naive or ignorant. We all have our beliefs, but that doesn't make those beliefs acceptable.

It makes it no more or less acceptable than yours. I would understand it if I was for name calling, violence, or anything that could be construed as seeing them as lesser people than myself, but thats not what I am saying at all. Again, just because I am personally against it does NOT equivilate into any of those things. Its no different than if you are for or against tattoos. You might not want them on your body, but if someone else wants to do it to theirs, then more power to them. (Just an example... I have multiple tats, so I am obviously for them)

Anyone that wishes to belittle, harrass, or harm anyone else simply based off the persons color, gender, beliefs, or sexual orientation deserves to get a boot to the head, pure and simple. I would never condone, nor support anything of that nature. All I am simply saying, is that I dont agree with it. There is a vast difference between what is being suggested, and what I am saying.

Let me put it another way... would I treat someone differently just because that was their choice? Absolutely not. If my best friend was gay, he would continue to be my best friend. Its not my cup of tea, but I would never mistreat anyone over something like that. I guess thats the point I am trying to make, and that seems to me to be going over some peoples heads. I stand by my choices, but I dont stand on other people with my choices.

I'm done trying to explain it, though. If people cant understand my point of view from this, then its just a waste of their and my time.

 

[AnkaraTheFallen]

I'd just like to clarify for a lot of people out there saying they don't care if someone is gay, so long as they are attracted to them. Most gay people can tell if your gay as well... they have 'gaydar' for lack of a better term.
Sorry to those of you who say this as a joke or whatever, but I'm tired of being told by friends and even strangers that they don't care that I'm gay they just don't want me being attracted to them, just cause we're gay doesn't mean we like everyone of the same sex, just as straight people don't like everyone of the opposite sex.
Thank you to the people that understand this and treat us like everyone else, as I've said before that's all the majority of gay people want.

 

[StarStruckStrumpets]

It's not so much that...It's people that play on it and are overly dramatic about their sexuality. I know two guys that are gay, but they're just like you or me. They live together, but if you ever saw them in town, they'd look like they were just two friends, and when asked if they're a couple, they just say "yeah".

Basically "I'm gay, deal with it" attitude.

The problem is that you're making assumptions that people are who more fem are INTENTIONALLY more fem acting because they want attention. Maybe they just aren't gender conforming. Maybe they are simply naturally more flamboyant. Not everyone is going to be cut from the same cloth, some people are naturally more exuberant than others. As long as that exuberance doesn't harm you directly, it isn't an issue.

Being gay is NOT a lifestyle. And no, the whole behind closed doors thing doesn't work. Gay people are gay inside and outside of their houses. It's not about them hiding their gayness, it's about your issues surrounding it and moving past them. And moving past your gender stereotypical mentality of what men "should" act like. There are no guidelines on being a man. Your basically saying gay people should act "normal", act like regular guys, basically be straight acting. But they are gay, and not all gay men are straight acting. So you sort of have to move on and get over it.

i think its more that as soon as people see gay men in particular acting in that cartoonish stereotype perpetuated by shows like will and grace almost instantly you lose some credibility, as you feel it (or it appears that you feel it) is more important to play into a stereotypical example of what you should be rather than what you are. And there are also people who intentionally too far that way to get attention.

Any person who entirely defines themselves by what it is considered their gender role should be like isn't somebody i want to know because they have no thought process.

(footnote i dont mind little bits of flamboyance that come with the territory but there has to be some substance to the individual. I would similarly dismiss females who slut up and only talk about clothes boys and clubbing)

But, again, that doesn't mean people do not act fem or are more flamboyant naturally. Because they do. It's not about being a stereotype for many of these men.

Everything you're saying is said by a lot of masculine gays, too. Oh, they give gay people a bad image. Why? Because they don't conform to what is considered normal. It's not a thought process for a lot of these fem gays. It's just that fact they are more feminine, and people can't handle that because it's like they are going against the "man code." It doesn't mean these gays are like, oh, well I'm going to go out of my way to show everyone how gay I can really be. They simply express themselves in a different manner. It's the same way anyone else expresses themselves, it's just different, rather than expressing themselves in a masculine demeanor, they do so in a more feminine way.

You should honestly get to know these people before automatically condemning them.

It's got nothing to do with their sexuality though, I can't stand those kinds of people. While I didn't explain myself clearly in that regard, it is how I feel. Whether straight or gay, male or female, I don't like flamboyant, gossipy and loud people. I suppose you're right about the gender conforming, it's something that is an issue of mine, not theirs, and I accept that, but unfortunately when talking about issues like this, you can't talk about the individuals within the gay demographic.

They've been roped into stereotypes, just like anyone else. The "Camp Gay" is exactly what I'm talking about, it's a stereotype I'm using because I can't talk about individual people, it just doesn't work when trying to give a general view. I don't like people of that nature regardless of gender or sexuality, but when I've grown to dislike the stereotype of the "Camp Gay" not because I have anything against them in their sexuality, but because the stereotype dictates that is how they act, which is why a lot of people seem to think being gay if a lifestyle.

Put simply, I'm sure Gok Wan is a perfectly nice guy, but I just couldn't befriend someone of such a fruity nature. It'd really irritate me. And when I said "behind closed doors", I wasn't saying "be gay at home". I just mean that what people do in the privacy of their own home is of no concern to me. I understand there are those in the world that are ignorant, and should know that being gay is perfectly acceptable, but you don't need to do anything other than write on a sign to do it. Most of them are old, religious people anyway and they'll cark it sooner of later.

 

[Riff Moonraker]

I appreciate that. What I hate is saying I'm Christian, then everyone getting on their high horses telling me what they think I believe in.

In general the whole "Gay vs Not-Gay" thing is never going to resolve because you are trying to redefine morality, which is something that you cannot do... Period. The extremist Christians are trying to place their concept of morality on everyone, and the extremist gay/lesbian community (Yes they do exist) is trying to force everyone to change their view of morality. Neither side is right, neither side will win.

I say let the free world do what it will, because it's not my job as a Christian to try and make the world some sort of "Heaven on Earth". I worship, and I give testimony for people who want to hear it. Those are the ONLY two jobs of a Christian in my perspective. It's only when BOTH SIDES start lump summing everyone together or yaking on about how they're right and no one else's opinion matters.
That's what gets on my nerves. NO ONE is willing to compromise.

Sadly I have to admit there are the extremists on our side as well, and the way they act actually hurts their cause more than it helps.
The majority of gay people just want to be treated like everyone else and left alone. But until the extremist people stop trying to shove their ideas in peoples faces we wont be. It's annoying that such people often scream about how they feel like religious people try to force their ideas on to others and then are doing it themselves. But again this is thankfully the minority of us.

Unfortunately, though, it seems the minority always makes the most noise. (on any side)

 

[Terminal Blue]

sounds a bit like youve a persecution complex there mate

I wonder why.

Whilst I have no subjective or empirical data to back up my claim, from a casual standpoint human societies generally expect men to be physically strong and mentally hardy- when something is that ubiquitous a relatively safe assumption would be in there being a genetic component, either directly or indirectly.

No, that's wrong.

History is replete with examples of societies where the opposite has been true. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that taken worldwide emotional sensibility has played a larger role in distinguishing elite men from non-elite men than physical strength ever did, and if the point of masculinity is not to determine a male ideal then what is it?

The kind of societies which ethnographers tend to get a massive boner for and (quite unfairly) view as most representative of underlying social principles generally expect everyone to be strong and mentally hardy. The social understanding that women can afford to be weak and frail is a product of larger scale social organizations which 'tribes' and hunter/gatherer groups don't tend to have. You can't have a definition of masculinity unless it functions as a binary opposition to femininity.

I honestly do not get why you seem so intent on tearing apart an inconsequential instinctive reaction- do you really think your high handed indignation will somehow alter it?

Because it's not an instinctive reaction. It's one of the few points which might actually be altered if you weren't so narrow minded about it.

The homophobic people. I'm just waiting for them to die and expecting them to shut up until they do. They will die, and eventually I hope some generation of their children grows up in recognition of their stupidity. Even if I could, it's not my responsibility or that of any LGBT person to grant epiphany to entrenched homophobes, but I know their children will grow up in a very different world and that's enough for me.

The fact that I'm arguing with you should be a reasonably clear indication that I think you're still worth talking to. If you want to dispute that, then fine. I'll leave you alone. I'm interested by your logic, both because it's quite prevalent and because it's quite flawed. You can't inflect natural tendencies from cultural traits. I'm calling you up on it so that hopefully you can explain yourself and I can see why and how you think as you do. It's interesting and useful in a way debating with any of the entrenched homophobes on this site has not been.

 

[Gigano]

It is of no ethical consequence whatsoever, and thus I certainly support its right to exist and be practised freely; as I do any choice within the scope of harmless plurality.

I really couldn't care less about who consenting adults take to their bed. And I have nothing but contempt for those who do think it's somehow their business.

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

Discussion of this topic is largely irrelevant. Sooner or later, unless we WANT to be a species of close-minded bigots, we are going to have to accept homosexuality, along with ethnic, political and most importantly of all, religious differences.
Anyone who seriously thinks homosexuality is wrong and punishable does not belong in the modern world.

AHHHH. THIS. You are so right! Haha, I'm always thinking this when I hear people vehemently oppose things that feel foolish to me.

Why thank you Fuzzy, it's good to know there aren't people who seriously think anything can be discussed like this.

As the proud son of two lesbians, I feel I am fairly bias towards this subject.

Two mothers...wow. I actually envy you man.

 

[powell86]

The homophobic people. I'm just waiting for them to die and expecting them to shut up until they do. They will die, and eventually I hope some generation of their children grows up in recognition of their stupidity. Even if I could, it's not my responsibility or that of any LGBT person to grant epiphany to entrenched homophobes, but I know their children will grow up in a very different world and that's enough for me.

I would assume most LGBT won't get to have children...

 

[AnkaraTheFallen]

The homophobic people. I'm just waiting for them to die and expecting them to shut up until they do. They will die, and eventually I hope some generation of their children grows up in recognition of their stupidity. Even if I could, it's not my responsibility or that of any LGBT person to grant epiphany to entrenched homophobes, but I know their children will grow up in a very different world and that's enough for me.

I would assume most LGBT won't get to have children...

Sorry this should be obvious... we can still adopt... and lesbian couples can have children quite easily, either from sperm banks, or one can still have sex with a man to get pregnant (before I get called on this I know people who have done this).

Sorry if you meant that most wont 'want' to have children, but even this may be false, I personally don't, at least not yet, but many gay couples would like to have children.

Edit: And I'm fairly sure they meant the homophobes children.

 

[powell86]

Sorry this should be obvious... we can still adopt... and lesbian couples can have children quite easily, either from sperm banks, or one can still have sex with a man to get pregnant (before I get called on this I know people who have done this).

Sorry if you meant that most wont 'want' to have children, but even this may be false, I personally don't, at least not yet, but many gay couples would like to have children.

Edit: And I'm fairly sure they meant the homophobes children.

I assumed that he meant LGBT children, as homophobes' children could grow up to be homophobes especially with early childhood indoctrination.

And I said most LGBT are not able to have children. I understand you can adopt, sperm bank, have sex with men etc. But Gays can't haf sperm bank and sex with men, and neither will the Trans group able to have children naturally. Hence adoption seems to be the most viable option for LGBT as a whole group.

Which leads me to adoption laws across many countries. Most of them DO NOT allow for LGBTs to adopt. So there you go.

 

[AnkaraTheFallen]

Sorry this should be obvious... we can still adopt... and lesbian couples can have children quite easily, either from sperm banks, or one can still have sex with a man to get pregnant (before I get called on this I know people who have done this).

Sorry if you meant that most wont 'want' to have children, but even this may be false, I personally don't, at least not yet, but many gay couples would like to have children.

Edit: And I'm fairly sure they meant the homophobes children.

I assumed that he meant LGBT children, as homophobes' children could grow up to be homophobes especially with early childhood indoctrination.

And I said most LGBT are not able to have children. I understand you can adopt, sperm bank, have sex with men etc. But Gays can't haf sperm bank and sex with men, and neither will the Trans group able to have children naturally. Hence adoption seems to be the most viable option for LGBT as a whole group.

Which leads me to adoption laws across many countries. Most of them DO NOT allow for LGBTs to adopt. So there you go.

Sorry I only have the laws of my own country to go by. But I am aware that other countries will be different.

As for homophobic families having children the same as them, I grew up in a very strong believing Catholic family, and told my entire life that gay people are sinners, wrong, will go to hell, ect... , and I still get told that on occasion, yet I'm gay myself, so I'd like to think that children will not necessary grow up like their parents.
Though saying that, for a long time after I found I was gay, I was distraught, being pulled between my faith and my self, to the point that I saw a counciler over it, so I understand what you mean about parents affecting how their children will feel.
I guess we can only hope that future generations will be more open to things.

 

[Break]

And I said most LGBT are not able to have children. I understand you can adopt, sperm bank, have sex with men etc. But Gays can't haf sperm bank and sex with men, and neither will the Trans group able to have children naturally. Hence adoption seems to be the most viable option for LGBT as a whole group.

You're forgetting about surrogate mothers. Same deal as sperm donation, except it generally involves a closer relationship with the third party. Not saying that you're wrong about the adoption thing being more reliable, but there you go.

 

[MajWound]

Being commonly jilted by women, I wish I was gay.

So you assume you wouldn't be jilted by gay men for the same reasons, whatever they might be?

I guess "jilted" is the wrong word entirely, since I'm usually the one that does the dumping. Maybe it's more accurate to say that I hate women. Generally speaking, they're more boring, illogical, unstable, idiotic, and unlikable than any of my guy friends. Unfortunately I'm not sexually attracted to men, so I guess I'll keep banging ladies. I just don't want to be around them any longer than it takes to do that.

EDIT: Weirdly enough, I'm still a fan of women's rights. But that's probably the libertarian in me. You see, people? It IS possible to support something you hate!

Wow. Honesty! Okay then.

That makes a certain amount of sense, but it's difficult to get more out of a relationship than you put into it. I'm not about to preach about love over here, though.

It would appear that you're not alone in this thread in your misogyny. I would argue it's not a problem inherent in women so much as it is a problem with a society that expects women to be vapid and superficial, especially at the bar scene. I hypothesize that for many women it's just a bullshit facade they put on because, again, it's what they think is expected of them, and once you get to know the real woman behind the ugly mask, there's a good chance she's more interesting than she originally appeared. Of course, that's rather a long time to wait for a meaningful relationship, and for some people, regardless of gender, the facades are all they have.

I'd argue that this is a major contributing reason to your support of women's rights, actually. You realize that they don't all have to be painfully uninteresting, or whatever other grievances you have, even if many of them are. And the more women realize this, the more awesome women we'll have around. In theory, anyway.

And let's not forget that there are plenty of insufferably shallow men at bars, and in the world in general, as well. They're probably just easier to relate to, as a man. Still doesn't make them interesting.

I would guess that one potential reason you find your dude friends to be more likable than most women you've met is because you have a larger sample size to draw from, over a more diverse population. But that's just conjecture, and I'm late for work.

I'll concede that I don't have much of a sample size. And I blame a lot of my gender for being so tolerant of women's outward retardation. But mostly, I blame the women who put on these masks out of some insecurity or perceived notion that this is the "norm". I'm sure they're all lovely deep down, but beauty is way more than skin-deep. You have to penetrate this retarded chitinous layer of the abovementioned bullshit just to get to it. It all comes back to "being yourself" and "people will accept you no matter who you are", but if you advertise your core as a vacant, oblivious, selfish, emotional hooker...I don't have the resolve to deal with it.

 

[powell86]

And I said most LGBT are not able to have children. I understand you can adopt, sperm bank, have sex with men etc. But Gays can't haf sperm bank and sex with men, and neither will the Trans group able to have children naturally. Hence adoption seems to be the most viable option for LGBT as a whole group.

You're forgetting about surrogate mothers. Same deal as sperm donation, except it generally involves a closer relationship with the third party. Not saying that you're wrong about the adoption thing being more reliable, but there you go.

and to the best of my knowledge, surrogate mothers is mostly illegal around the world as well.

 

[Laxman9292]

I'm indifferent to homosexualtiy, it's none of my business what you do with your dick/vagina. Matter of fact, the less I know about it the better, regardless of sexuality, no one should rub their sexuality in peoples faces.

That being said, I do not believe they should be allowed to marry. In the religious sense, they deserve all legal benefits of married people of course. But in my eyes, if the religion is against homosexuality then you have no right to demand they accommodate you. It's akin to a woman kicking down the door to a club that's for men only and demanding to be allowed in. It's just against the clubs rules to do that, they're allowed to have they're own rules about it and if that's the way they operate then you have no legal right to demand to be included.

 

[AnkaraTheFallen]

And I said most LGBT are not able to have children. I understand you can adopt, sperm bank, have sex with men etc. But Gays can't haf sperm bank and sex with men, and neither will the Trans group able to have children naturally. Hence adoption seems to be the most viable option for LGBT as a whole group.

You're forgetting about surrogate mothers. Same deal as sperm donation, except it generally involves a closer relationship with the third party. Not saying that you're wrong about the adoption thing being more reliable, but there you go.

and to the best of my knowledge, surrogate mothers is mostly illegal around the world as well.

I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but as far as I know all western countries are perfectly fine with surrogate mothers.

 

[cybran]

I am sooo tired of these threads =|

I support it because.. come on... this isnt the renaissance. (dunno if I spelled that right)

 

[Johanthemonster666]

I find it interesting that you are, and I quote, "an immoral bigot" if you DONT support homosexuality. Yet, its perfectly ok to slam christians, and slam people if they personally do not agree with it. People slamming my religion and calling me an immoral bigot offends me, and its wrong. If I WAS one, that would be something different, but I am most certainly not.

Well then maybe you should understanding why thinking lesbians and gay are beneath you is a bad idea... after all it always comes back to you in some form. THEN, you see why people get upset when ignorant statements are made about their sexual orientation and why they need to go hide it away from people who find it intolerable. If you're so offended (in a society that is largely Protestant Christian)then perhaps you should heed your own creeds words "Don't judge people, lest you be judged" and "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you".

So, let me get this straight... if I don't support it, that automatically means I think they are BENEATH me?? I guess that means that if I support the 360, but don't support the PS3, I think all PS3 users are beneath me. I guess that means that if I don't care for asparagus, then everyone that eats it is beneath me. How asinine can you be? I don't look down on anyone for their choices, I simply do not care for it myself. I have enough intelligence and maturity to be able to have my own decisions but realize that other peoples choices and decisions are their own, and by no means does that make me better than them for it.

Please, by all means, tell me when I judged someone else in my statements. I simply gave my personal opinion, as to which I am completely entitled to. The problems start when people begin to act as if their PERSONAL opinion is FACT, and then assume anyone without that opinion is beneath them. I never did that.

You, on the other hand.....

Right there... you just said it. "It's a choice", this has been disproved by numerous experts across the neurological, biological, and genetic fields. And no I'm not expecting you to "care" for your own sex based on being born (mostly likely) wired for the female gender. This idea that people chose what gender they prefer needs to stop, it's so damned outdated.

Heterosexism simply means "a belief system that holds heterosexual relations as "more natural", and therefore superior to other sexualities and people who fall outside the heteronormative standards" Once you realize that people like myself are no different than you (even as far as our relationships go) you'll realize why I supporting lesbians, straights, bisexuals, pansexuals all the same, because they're just like me in every facet.

If I told you "I don't support Christians.... but I tolerate their existence" you'd think I was an ass wouldn't you? It's condescending and is purposely separating you from me: I would basically be saying "religious people are okay, but I just don't care for their choice to be born into a Christian family and all the nonsense that goes with it" Sounds pretty stupid doesn't it? Sounds like I have a superiority complex based on only my own experience.

Note: You can try that "I don't think I'm better than you... but I just don't care for the fact that you 'chose' an lifestyle that society has said is undesirable and faith says is sinful". Why do I know that? Because I've already had the mindset about other people in the past (before reality gave a wakeup call) and it just bothers me when people say they're unbiased and turn around and use that kind of language or viewpoint to describe other people.

2nd Note: The examples people use on here trying to associate consumerism with biology (ones' condition from conception vs. not liking the taste of asparagus ).... poor comparison. Again, you assume I CHOSE to be gay (as if it were a flavor of ice cream -_-)

Last Note: When I say "I'm no different than you" I mean that if you were born in my shoes, you'd act and think the same way. We're not born "clean slates" and therefore you can't evaluate my state of being based on the idea that I was born into this world pure, and then "corrupted" by outside forces based on moral choices alone (especially over something as innate as sexuality, brain chemistry and so on).

I guess you're confusing "choice" with "the way we're wired" and "support" with "being that which you support". For example: I support people's right to believe whatever they want so long as treat everyone else according to the ethical and *secular* moral values most westerner's agree on. I may not be Christian or agree with your views... but I hold no idiotic delusions that your "moral choices" alone formed who you are and that our disagreements somehow demonstrate that you're sick in head, dysfunctional, or stupid. I SUPPORT your freedom to believe those things and your voice in expressing yourself. See? Support= Understanding and treating people how you'd like to be treated and of course [biological nature]= something you're innately born with and can't change and is not determined by choices.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I would assume most LGBT won't get to have children...

I meant the children of homophobes, but give that one time.