Poll: Hungary bans homeless people.

[Not G. Ivingname]

You can argue all of this back and forth, I'm actually none too fond of any aspect of it (Gypsies or in general) but I understand it. Truthfully it's the kind of problem that does need to be resolved, and despite what a lot of people might think it's not something that is going to be resolve by just lobbing free crap and oppertunities at the poor. Of course throwing them into prison isn't nessicarly going to help either. The end result is that morality has to be re-evaluated and a lot of things we consider cruel and inhumane put back on the table. Me personally, I'd like to see the homeless in the US rounded up and put into international service. Send them out of the country in uniform to do dreg work for US/UN peacekeeping forces. We don't arm those guys anyway in many cases. You use these guys to say dig latrines for refugees, build fences (carryng stones and such) and cool the meals being handed out and so on. In short use them as a sort of support-oriented penal corps. where they can be made to dry out under military watch, get in better shape, and perhaps eventually learn some skills to come back home and contribute. If a lot of them never come back from their duties... well, that sucks and all, but we're dealing with people whose bodies were probably going to wind up clogging gutters as it was... that might sound callous, but I can't help but be a realist. I can't come up with a perfect, utopian solution, but neither can anyone else which is why we have problems like this.

Of course, that is never going to fly because the whole "no slave labor" amendment.

 

[Wolfhowl the shadow lurker]

what is this? i dont even...

i dont want to live on this planet anymore...

 

[NerdElf]

Well, I think I know what this is about. Most homeless people are gypsies. Once 1 or 2 of their relatives have been jailed, they're going to consider moving. But where? To Romania, where they are undisturbed. This is Hungarys way of ruining Romania completely, it's basically saying "If we can't have Transylvania nobody can trolololo bosmeg bosmeg."
Just my 20 bani (2 cents)

 

[plugav]

They want to fine and incarcerate people for being homeless? That's beyond f***ing stupid. It doesn't solve the problem of homelessness, it makes it even bigger.

 

[Giftfromme]

[
It's an issue that needs to be resolved? Are you ok? Homelessness is something that can be solved? Are you being serious or is this some kind of new age humour I don't get?

That...makes so sense whatsoever. In every economy that involves money, there will always be poor and homeless people. Always. It's an unavoidable artifact of a money based economy. You think these people can "just get jobs?" You think an economy can have 100% employment? If you give it more then just 1 second of thought, you realise it's impossible. Literally impossible. Like if 100% of the people of working age in a country were employed, what then of of the employment agencies? I don't know about other countries, but in Australia employment agencies and Centrelink employ a LOT of people. What would they do if there was 100% employment?

Choosing alcohol and drugs over rent? Let me ask again: are you ok? People get addicted to drugs, and alcohol "helps" others with pain in their life. They didn't take cocaine once and then decide that the rest of their lives will revolve around it. There are other issues involved, others you and I couldn't fathom. These kind of issues will always exist in an economy that uses money.

The way money works and has its power is because a lot of people will always have "less" and others will have "more" (in a relative sense). It will always happen, it's how money works, how it will work for a long time to come. It has to happen, and institutions set up help make the system work. These are not evil but simple necessity. School is one of them.


^^Going from your post above, you have some bizarre views man. Like really bizarre. You talk about shipping people, forcing them to work, like it's something casual and takes no resources to do. I mean, do you give thought to your posts? Do you think you're the first person ever to think of something like this? Do you know why this hasn't been done in a serious manner? Probably might have to do with many many many factors, one of which is....*drum roll* money! You think money just appears? If money is given for this outrageously silly project, it HAS to be taken away from other areas the Government could spend money. That's unavoidable. That money won't just be plucked from a tree conveniently for this project.

I'm fine, and I probably understand economics better than you do, even if you'd doubtlessly argue the point with me. The differance here is purely one of morality, since I am not a left wing extremist.

In general there is no valid reason to have homless people choking the streets and filling up alleyways (which is what this is about) other than moral arguements about not punishing them further, and making arguements of best case scenarios of why they might be there. It's not that we CAN'T do anything with the people that fall that far as I suggested (ie press them into goverment service in a way that doesn't interfere with domestic business interests).

See, my point of view is simply that instead of handing them free food, shelter, medical care, and other things, make them work for it. They can't find a job? Well there is plenty of work that needs to be done globally that the US is having trouble meeting the demands for, with our forces... both military and humanitarian... being stretched. You give the Homeless what they need to survive, but you make them work for it, and you make them work for it in a place where people who employed doing that work already are not going to lose their jobs.

It's a pretty simple solution, but the the liberal outcry is "OMG, your talking about making them work as opposed to just giving them stuff... how horrible".

The bit about pressing them into international service is again, because if you use them domestically to say build roads or whatever, then the contractors that are employed doing that will be put out of work. On the other hand if you have them build roads in say rural Africa where there are no contractors or anything (which is why we're down there doing it as charity) they help out without putting Americans out of jobs, and in return get food, shelter, and care.

Nope, this won't prevent people from falling this far, but it will prevent, or greatly reduce, the number of them laying in alleyways, dead in gutters, or harassing people for change.

You understand economics better then me? And yet you still think this is economically viable? Do you understand your own post?

These homeless people that will do the "work", how will they get paid? In money? So that money will just appear? Will they be paid in food? Will that food just appear? So you think just because they're sent down there, that these resources just appear? Is that really your line of reasoning?

I mean, who do you think will pay for this? Where will that money come from? It's cool to have that opinion, but come on, at least give it some more thought.

 

[camazotz]

Evil at work here....can't pay the fine? First they jail you, then they force you to work in labor camps to pay off your "fine." Then they let you back out on the streets, rinse and repeat. This is a way to officially generate state-mandated "wage slaves."

 

[Therumancer]

You can argue all of this back and forth, I'm actually none too fond of any aspect of it (Gypsies or in general) but I understand it. Truthfully it's the kind of problem that does need to be resolved, and despite what a lot of people might think it's not something that is going to be resolve by just lobbing free crap and oppertunities at the poor. Of course throwing them into prison isn't nessicarly going to help either. The end result is that morality has to be re-evaluated and a lot of things we consider cruel and inhumane put back on the table. Me personally, I'd like to see the homeless in the US rounded up and put into international service. Send them out of the country in uniform to do dreg work for US/UN peacekeeping forces. We don't arm those guys anyway in many cases. You use these guys to say dig latrines for refugees, build fences (carryng stones and such) and cool the meals being handed out and so on. In short use them as a sort of support-oriented penal corps. where they can be made to dry out under military watch, get in better shape, and perhaps eventually learn some skills to come back home and contribute. If a lot of them never come back from their duties... well, that sucks and all, but we're dealing with people whose bodies were probably going to wind up clogging gutters as it was... that might sound callous, but I can't help but be a realist. I can't come up with a perfect, utopian solution, but neither can anyone else which is why we have problems like this.

Of course, that is never going to fly because the whole "no slave labor" amendment.

Incorrect actually. What I'm proposing is very similar to things Roosevelt did (look it up).

My basic attitude is that those who are able to work should be made to do so rather than simply being given charity. This is why if you've read my posts in this thread you'd notice I mention exemption from people who are homeless due to mental illness or whatever.

What I am suggesting is these people pretty much being made to work for their food, board and support, in a way and location that doesn't disrupt the rest of the economy.

As far as I'm concerned those who are capable of working, but unwilling to do so can be left to die. The others can be made to pay for the support they are being given through the goverment employing them where it can. It's a very simple thing.

Likewise if you go the root Hungary is proposing and make it an actual crime for people to be homeless and unemployed, forcing them to work is perfectly acceptable. It's a sentence to hard labour, we already use prisoners to sew garmets, product liscence plates, and various other things in prison shops. The reason why we don't see prisoners being used more often in other fields is the escape risk and of course the simple fact that using prisoners to do work for the state in many cases takes those jobs away from contractors and other paid state workers.

The basic attitude being that you make the homeless person work as part of their prison sentence during which they learn to do something. They you toss them into the release system to try and find them a job. If they are unable to find one and work, then they go right back into the system. It's tough, but it's fair.

See, when I was able to I worked, and my job (despite how it might sound) wasn't a lot of fun. I have social security (even if it's a crappy amount) because of the time I put into the system, with the understanding that money would be there if something happened and I was rendered unable to work. I have no sympathy for people choking the streets who demand to be given things but aren't willing to earn it. If the goverment shows up and says "we're going to give you food and board, but expect you to work" that is perfectly bloody reasonable, even if they ship you overseas to do it.

On the original subject of Hungary, I will say that I have mixed opinions about what they are doing largely because of the whole Romanii aspect of things. See, I believe that the Romanii culture needs to be absorbed into society, forcibly and bloodily if need be. I do not however believe that Hungary has any real desire to do that given the general perception of the people. My concern is that Hungary would wind up using this to veil an actual attempted genocide. See, I'm pretty evil and brutal in that I'm perfectly willing to tolerate mass murder as part of breaking a culture in the name of long term adaption, but when your dealing with killing all of the people at a given time rather than enough of them to destroy the ideas and the way of life... well it's a fine line, but that's going too far. A lot of people don't understand that distinction when they are dealing with the deaths of millions of people, but it DOES exist. Hungary is not liable to want to start a work program like I suggested above in the US, or even work through extreme brutality to bring the Romanii into society in an absolute long term, but to outright kill them all. It wouldn't be the first time someone has embraced an extreme anti-Gypsy agenda, and honestly I get the impression that this is the bottom line despite attempts to present it as a a general effort against the homeless. In practice I'd imagine the Hungarians are going to be likely to overlook bums of Hungarian descent and cultural outlook in favor of using it as an excuse to round up the Romanii en-masse since simply not having an address (as is the norm for a nomadic, criminal culture) would be an excuse to take them into custody and then do whatever is determined needs to be done.

The Romanii people/ethnicity deserve to live, but I do agree that that the culture needs to go. It's very difficult to maintain a stable society as it is without what amounts to a sub-society of criminals and scavengers floating around defining themselves by exploiting people for their own game. Perhaps that's a negative portrayal of the Romanii (and they doubtlessly have their good aspects) but this has been going on for thousands of years, and there is a point where you have to say enough is enough, it's time to progress and civilize no matter what the cost is. I've read a lot of things about it over the years, and basically the bottom line is Gypsies are awesome as an idea unless they happen to be operating where you live at the moment. Hence the reaction Madonna got when she decided to parade some Romanii musicians around during one of her concerts and try and go off about the "plight" of that people to the natives that live with them. Basically I'm brutal, but the Hungarians likely have plans that go beyond brutality into unjustifiable evil.

That's my thoughts at any rate.

 

[CharrHearted]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAjAyel3-9M&feature=related

My reaction... That is all.

 

[Akimoto]

Politics: Look for a non-existing threat/problem, apply the wrong solution and watch what happens