Poll: If a Tree falls in a forest...

[Amethyst Wind]

This is an odd reflection of the escapist community as a whole. The majority of us are very science minded and therefore use the scientific definition of sound, while a few are more philosophy oriented and go for a more perception based definition. On top of that the science based members seem to get sick of this argument very quickly, leaving the philosophers to try and convince the next batch of scientists.

I hope everyone realizes that this question bears a less literal meaning than anyone seems to see. The point is to determine if you think literally or philosophically, the distinction has been made through this community. On top of that the debate that has ensued is a very apt representation of religion Vs. science. An interesting event indeed.

That's not very fair to say that there's a clear distinction between science-based and philosophy-based thinking. I'm a philosopher and I'm using what I see to be the scientific definition of sound, that being vibrations of molecules that are registered by the cochlea of the ear, which then sends an electrical signal to the brain, where it is translated into what could be called "sound". As I've stated before it's my belief that sound is not synonymous with vibrations of molecules, rather that molecular vibration can be translated into sound, in the same way that binary code is not the English language but can be translated into it.

Now I've also taken a perspective-based tact as the cochlea and brain of each individual person is going to register and translate those air vibrations differently. Here's where a lot of people are differing I think, in that nobody is trying to say that the molecular vibrations don't happen (except maybe Schroedinger), but rather whether or not those vibrations can be called "sound". I say no, others say yes. I don't care either way, as I see it as perspective. I believe that everyone has their own individual truth, rather than there being one over-arching truth. It's my truth that sound does not happen at the point of the tree falling but in the ears/brains of creatures capable of auditory reception.

My part in this discussion is done, I've no interest in continuing any further. That's my truth.


On a side-note - Without looking it up, how many people in this discussion actually know what the word "Philosophy" means?

 

[bad rider]

Unless you are a human that understands dogs, or a dogs that can speak human languages, you can not prove your point.

EDIT: As in, you cannot say that a dog receives sound. Sure, they react to it, but that doesn't mean they perceive the same.

Prove that they don't, then.

That argument works both ways. I'm fairly certain that science has proven that dogs use similar sound receptors, or ears to the less pretentious, to humans. If you're using that argument, then it applies to everything else which uses that system too, which includes other humans.

Interesting, but you can't use the arguement both ways. You can't assume x does y without proof, otherwise all irrationality's are given credibility. However you can ask to prove x does y to make the arguement rational.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Check the Definition of sound please.. its vibrations being heard.

That vibration will happen, even if it won't be heard.

Prove it

Let's say you're blind and deaf. You can't hear nor see. A tree falls right behind you. Does the sound happen or does it not?


The vibration has to occur in order to be perceived by something that can...well "decode" it. In order to say that the vibration will not happen, you need to prove that the ear is the cause of that vibration. Because if a tree really falls, the vibration will occur, even if it won't be heard by anyone.

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

See, the problem is people dont think before they post, everyone is saying "yes of course" but sound by definition is vibrations that someone hears.. look it up.

So again, if noone is around to hear it, is it a sound?

I say no

I looked it up and what I got was this:
'mechanical vibrations transmitted by an elastic medium; "falling trees make a sound in the forest even when no one is there to hear them"

Sorry, it makes a sound. Besides you forget that it isn't just humans who hear sounds, it's animals too. And you can guarantee there'd be animals around.

/thread

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

Check the Definition of sound please.. its vibrations being heard.

That vibration will happen, even if it won't be heard.

Prove it

That's a cheap rebuttal. I could just as easily tell you to prove that it won't make a sound.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

George Berkeley was a philosopher who created and promoted a theory he called "immaterialism" later referred to as "subjective idealism". His dictum was "Esse est percipi" - "To be is to be perceived". He talked of objects ceasing to exist once there was nobody around to perceive them. In his work, A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, he proposes, "But, say you, surely there is nothing easier than for me to imagine trees, for instance, in a park [. . .] and nobody by to perceive them. [...] The objects of sense exist only when they are perceived; the trees therefore are in the garden [. . .] no longer than while there is somebody by to perceive them." One source cites him concisely phrasing the question, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, did it really fall?" ]His philosophical musings had nothing to do with sound at all, neither its physical nature nor its metaphysical possibilities.

[my bold]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest

It is a shame so many people apparently don't know the origin of this question, nor the purpose that exists in asking it.

 

[rabidmidget]

it perpetually makes a noise and doesn't make a noise at he same time until some one enters the forest where it will then have either made a noise or not made a noise
my quantum physics beats your philosophy

 

[vxicepickxv]

It does make a sound. It does NOT make a noise. The two are not the same. Sound is generated from sound waves from an event, such as a tree falling. The perception of the sound into our ears generates a noise.

/End thread

 

[bad rider]

Check the Definition of sound please.. its vibrations being heard.

That vibration will happen, even if it won't be heard.

Prove it

Let's say you're blind and deaf. You can't hear nor see. A tree falls right behind you. Does the sound happen or does it not?


The vibration has to occur in order to be perceived by something that can...well "decode" it. In order to say that the vibration will not happen, you need to prove that the ear is the cause of that vibration. Because if a tree really falls, the vibration will occur, even if it won't be heard by anyone.

Here we have two recievers, so ergo as long as the guitar player knows it's happening it's happening. Whereas in the situation posed there is no reciever. We have no evidence it has made a sound and thus saying it has is ridiculous and comes down to belief.

 

[bad rider]

Check the Definition of sound please.. its vibrations being heard.

That vibration will happen, even if it won't be heard.

Prove it

That's a cheap rebuttal. I could just as easily tell you to prove that it won't make a sound.

No thats the scientific method. You say something, I ask for proof.

 

[Fists]

I voted yes, I wish I believed no.

 

[sonidraw]

First, define sound. Then you will have your answer.

In my opinion, sound is just a vibration of air molecules. So yes, it would make a sound.

 

[irrelevantnugget]

George Berkeley was a philosopher who created and promoted a theory he called "immaterialism" later referred to as "subjective idealism". His dictum was "Esse est percipi" - "To be is to be perceived". He talked of objects ceasing to exist once there was nobody around to perceive them. In his work, A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, he proposes, "But, say you, surely there is nothing easier than for me to imagine trees, for instance, in a park [. . .] and nobody by to perceive them. [...] The objects of sense exist only when they are perceived; the trees therefore are in the garden [. . .] no longer than while there is somebody by to perceive them." One source cites him concisely phrasing the question, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, did it really fall?" ]His philosophical musings had nothing to do with sound at all, neither its physical nature nor its metaphysical possibilities.

[my bold]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest

It is a shame so many people apparently don't know the origin of this question, nor the purpose that exists in asking it.

It not being the purpose of the question doesn't mean we could try to find an answer.

Aaaaand I'm going to shove a boot up my philosophy professor's ass this tuesday, because as stated somewhere before on this thread, he held us bored with his explanation for over half an hour.

Also, I seem to have jumbled up my philosophy, and communication management courses, in my earlier 'explanations' as to why there would be no sound. But I guess they intertwined pretty nicely, actually.

Unless you are a human that understands dogs, or a dogs that can speak human languages, you can not prove your point.

EDIT: As in, you cannot say that a dog receives sound. Sure, they react to it, but that doesn't mean they perceive the same.

Prove that they don't, then.

That argument works both ways. I'm fairly certain that science has proven that dogs use similar sound receptors, or ears to the less pretentious, to humans. If you're using that argument, then it applies to everything else which uses that system too, which includes other humans.

Actually, it doesn't work both ways.

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

Check the Definition of sound please.. its vibrations being heard.

That vibration will happen, even if it won't be heard.

Prove it

That's a cheap rebuttal. I could just as easily tell you to prove that it won't make a sound.

No thats the scientific method. You say something, I ask for proof.

Even though you know full well that he cannot possibly provide you with proof over an internet forum.

 

[Sgt. Dante]

Yes it does. The real question is, can you clap with one hand?

Yes actually...

 

[mhitman]

i think it depends on what you consider sound, which seems kind of weird. It definitely creates sound waves and theres probly an animal that will hear it anyway. I don't understand how it couldn't

 

[Sgt. Dante]

Check the Definition of sound please.. its vibrations being heard.

That vibration will happen, even if it won't be heard.

Prove it

That's a cheap rebuttal. I could just as easily tell you to prove that it won't make a sound.

No thats the scientific method. You say something, I ask for proof.

Even though you know full well that he cannot possibly provide you with proof over an internet forum.

It's easy to prove, in theory. just set up a camera in an otherwise (or basically) empty room, and then set something to fall over when you close the door, ala, tie a string to a door handle and then a random weighty object on a raised platform, so when you close the door the object will fall, you will not be around to hear it (well, you might depending on how loud it is) but according to this zen bullshit the video should remain completely quiet.

Scientific reserch is only really there to DISPROVE theories anyway. If you test a theory a thousand times and it doesn't work even only once that thoery is invariably false, just because it happened the other 999 times just means that your theory is close, but not accurate.

 

[Aedwynn]

I'd also like to mention that if the tree hits a mime, no-one cares.

(/obscure?)

The Farside? I want to say it's The Farside but I really can't remember what it's from with any confidence. All I know is that I was ninja'd. By you.

You are correct. It was a Far Side cartoon. ("If a tree falls in a forest, and no-one is around, and it hits a mime... does anyone care?")

 

[peduncle]

NO!

when a tree falls, it creates acoustical energy in the form of waves. it isn't until an onganism recieves these waves, convert it into electrical impulses to the brain, that it becomes sound

 

[sonidraw]

Yes it does. The real question is, can you clap with one hand?

Yes actually...

Yup. My brother and I have also done one-handed clapping. It's not as hard as people make it out to be...