Poll: If a Tree falls in a forest...

[Eldritch Warlord]

NO!

when a tree falls, it creates acoustical energy in the form of waves. it isn't until an onganism recieves these waves, convert it into electrical impulses to the brain, that it becomes sound

As a noun sound is either as you said or a vibration capable of causing that sensation.

Thus, sound is either a disturbance in a fluid medium or the perception of that disturbance.

The "If a tree falls in a forest . . ." question is philosophical, not semantic or scientific.

 

[almaster88]

Oh lawd, I'm the only one so far that said no...

Philosophy professor went on about why there is no sound for about half an hour. He had a point, somewhere, even though I intuitively thought there would be sound.

Sounds is something that only exists when it is perceived by an organism, and each organism experiences it in a different way. 'Sound' might be just some energy moving around, but 'sound' has arbitrarily defined by humans, for humans, thus if it's not perceived, it cannot exist.

Something like that. I nearly fell asleep anyway.

That sounds more like noise rather than sound.

Sound can affect things around it, if a tree falls, it's sound wave could affect something nearby in a small way, through pressure caused by the sound. This influence could affect someone in the future.

For the trees themselves, it is not 'sound'. It is, as you said, pressure caused by the energy waves that we define as sound (if we perceive it in the first place).

The butterfly effect however, I had not thought of, but it's the direct energy movement that will be classified as the actual sound of the tree's fall, and only that has to be perceived. If the energy somehow lets a leaf blow around and hits a tree next to which someone is standing, there will be a tiny 'sound' of the leaf hitting that tree, but it's not the actual energy from the lone tree anymore.

I love this guy, he's so deep and philisophical haha.

Wow look at all the posts, I cant believe this is still going, awesome. I posted the definition of Sound at the front, hopefully that will even out the votes, but I doubt it.

Feel free to message me if you think I'm a nutter or whatever.

 

[bad rider]

Check the Definition of sound please.. its vibrations being heard.

That vibration will happen, even if it won't be heard.

Prove it

That's a cheap rebuttal. I could just as easily tell you to prove that it won't make a sound.

No thats the scientific method. You say something, I ask for proof.

Even though you know full well that he cannot possibly provide you with proof over an internet forum.

I'm sorry could you prove it in real life? If so can you tell me how you would go about doing so.

Edit: just because people tell me god is real, the fact I know they can't prove it to me dosen't stop me asking them to do so.

 

[bad rider]

Oh lawd, I'm the only one so far that said no...

Philosophy professor went on about why there is no sound for about half an hour. He had a point, somewhere, even though I intuitively thought there would be sound.

Sounds is something that only exists when it is perceived by an organism, and each organism experiences it in a different way. 'Sound' might be just some energy moving around, but 'sound' has arbitrarily defined by humans, for humans, thus if it's not perceived, it cannot exist.

Something like that. I nearly fell asleep anyway.

That sounds more like noise rather than sound.

Sound can affect things around it, if a tree falls, it's sound wave could affect something nearby in a small way, through pressure caused by the sound. This influence could affect someone in the future.

For the trees themselves, it is not 'sound'. It is, as you said, pressure caused by the energy waves that we define as sound (if we perceive it in the first place).

The butterfly effect however, I had not thought of, but it's the direct energy movement that will be classified as the actual sound of the tree's fall, and only that has to be perceived. If the energy somehow lets a leaf blow around and hits a tree next to which someone is standing, there will be a tiny 'sound' of the leaf hitting that tree, but it's not the actual energy from the lone tree anymore.

I love this guy, he's so deep and philisophical haha.

This here isn't particularly constructive.

 

[Internet Kraken]

The laws of science are not dependent upon the presence of humans.

If a tree falls it will make a sound. Whether or not someone is around to hear that sound does not matter. The sound still exists.

 

[almaster88]

Yeah true. ok, well to be "constructive" I posted the definition of sound at the 1st post.

Basically sound has to be heard by a human. e.g if no human is aroudn to hear it, it's not conisdered "sound" therefor the tree does not make one. boggles your mind doesnt it?

Anywho those who said " yes because birds and butterflies and boinking rabbits would hear it, looks like ur wrong.

Keep the posts coming!

 

[JAPH42]

Difficult to say. While the tree might well make a sound, It would be difficult to prove that the sound existed.

 

[Captain_Caveman]

Yes, it made a sound.

There's sound on Jupiter too, i suspect it's probably extremely loud there.

Sound is a physical thing. As crazy as it seems. It can be quantified.

 

[bad rider]

The laws of science are not dependent upon the presence of humans.

If a tree falls it will make a sound. Whether or not someone is around to hear that sound does not matter. The sound still exists.

Quantum mechanics and Schrödinger's cat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

 

[Captain_Caveman]

Quantum mechanics and Schrödinger's cat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

a) shrodinger's cat is just an illustration of unstability in quantum mechanics. it is not literal.

b) sound is not an unstable law of nature. the chances that circumstances would exist that would completely neutralize the sound of a falling tree in a quiet area are about a zillion to one. It would be the equiv of saying water in the ocean may not be liquid if it's not being observed.

 

[Dys]

Yeah true. ok, well to be "constructive" I posted the definition of sound at the 1st post.

Basically sound has to be heard by a human. e.g if no human is aroudn to hear it, it's not conisdered "sound" therefor the tree does not make one. boggles your mind doesnt it?

Anywho those who said " yes because birds and butterflies and boinking rabbits would hear it, looks like ur wrong.

Keep the posts coming!

Defining sound as something that humans hear is all good and well, but that's not what the definition of sound is. By that logic, could I not define sound as magical pink unicorns and then claim it doesn't exist in any scenario?
Sound is scientificially defined as moving or vibrating particles, and scientific definitions give definate answers. It is silly to ask a question and then exclude the definate evidence.

 

[fletch_talon]

Yeah true. ok, well to be "constructive" I posted the definition of sound at the 1st post.

Basically sound has to be heard by a human. e.g if no human is aroudn to hear it, it's not conisdered "sound" therefor the tree does not make one. boggles your mind doesnt it?

Anywho those who said " yes because birds and butterflies and boinking rabbits would hear it, looks like ur wrong.

Keep the posts coming!

Therefore nothing actually makes sound, sound is created by our minds, so the tree doesn't make sound regardless of whether anyone is around or not, it makes vibrations which are converted into the sensation we define as sound.

But that's only if you want to be pedantic, I personally consider sound to be the potential of vibrations to be picked up by a organism. Regardless of where it is (except space) a tree will create vibrations when falling that have the potential to be picked up by the human (or animal) ear. Whether a human is there or not, the vibrations do not change, it just changes whether we are their to recieve them or not.

 

[almaster88]

Oh man, I couldnt even understand all of that quantum mechanics stuff, all I know is Interet Kraken got burned.

Kidding

 

[DarthHK]

Actually it doesn't make "sound." Yes, it does make the vibrations, but sound is in fact how one's ear defines those vibrations.

 

[almaster88]

But by definition, sound is only if vibrations are received by a human, so if noone is there to HEAR it fall, technically there was no SOUND

 

[bad rider]

Quantum mechanics and Schrödinger's cat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

a) shrodinger's cat is just an illustration of unstability in quantum mechanics. it is not literal.

b) sound is not an unstable law of nature. the chances that circumstances would exist that would completely neutralize the sound of a falling tree in a quiet area are about a zillion to one. It would be the equiv of saying water in the ocean may not be liquid if it's not being observed.

How do you know it's a zillion to one exactly? I like that we all "know" that when we observe these things they behave in a specific way, but there is no way you can show they continue in such a fashion when we aren't there. So essentially you either believe that the tree makes a sound or you say you can't conclude it does as you have no evidence.

 

[Captain_Caveman]

Therefore nothing actually makes sound, sound is created by our minds, so the tree doesn't make sound regardless of whether anyone is around or not, it makes vibrations which are converted into the sensation we define as sound.

But that's only if you want to be pedantic, I personally consider sound to be the potential of vibrations to be picked up by a organism. Regardless of where it is (except space) a tree will create vibrations when falling that have the potential to be picked up by the human (or animal) ear. Whether a human is there or not, the vibrations do not change, it just changes whether we are their to recieve them or not.

Incorrect. Most animals hear sound, not just humans. Also, would you say UV rays don't exist because people cant see them? If you did you would be wrong. Some animals can see them.

 

[Captain_Caveman]

How do you know it's a zillion to one exactly? I like that we all "know" that when we observe these things they behave in a specific way, but there is no way you can show they continue in such a fashion when we aren't there. So essentially you either believe that the tree makes a sound or you say you can't conclude it does as you have no evidence.

Zillion isn't a real number. It's a hypothetical number. But it's probably the most accurate number for the situation. You could put a air pressure sensor hooked up to a satellite uplink & get visual data 10,000 miles away. You aren't hearing sound. But there's proof it exists. People are confusing the levels of probability needed to make a theory a law. Sound is a LAW of nature.

 

[Abi79]

But by definition, sound is only if vibrations are received by a human, so if noone is there to HEAR it fall, technically there was no SOUND

a. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing.

or...

b. Transmitted vibrations of any frequency.

And that's what sound is. Capable, but not which MUST be heard. Either way, could we hear it if we were there? Yes. That is just common sense.

 

[Redingold]

The definition of sound the OP posted say:

a. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing.
b. Transmitted vibrations of any frequency.

I'll point out that it says CAPABLE of being detected by human ears. Nowhere does it say that it HAS to be detected.

Edit: Ninja'd.