Poll: Injustice of the Permaban

[Yureina]

I've had my issues with mods on this site in the past, but that had more to do with their specific actions than anything with the ruleset itself. I've never had a problem with the site's rules, and they aren't hard for me to keep to since I am not in the business of insulting people. So long as the mods themselves are well-policed so that they don't just toss out warnings, or "marks" as they seem to be called now, at a whim because they don't like someone or for some other absurd reason, then I don't really see a problem.

 

[Marter]

Yep. The point is, if two people are quoting each other back and forth, whether they be arguing (hopefully civilly) over something, or two friends having some friendly banter, either way it's not really something we want to discourage (by way of the low content rule at least).

And yet I got a low content warning when quoting someone!

That isn't a conversation. Otherwise the people just saying "this" when quoting someone would be okay. And we don't need that.

 

[Marter]

Well how else are we supposed to express our agreement with the quoted post?

"I agree. Here is why:"

Or PM the person and tell them you agreed with what they said and have nothing more to add to the conversation.

 

[WouldYouKindly]

I quite agree with the strict rules here. You'll notice we're fairly short on trolls and pricks here. That's thanks to the good old permaban. It limits what you can say, but that just makes you calm down and handle things a bit more rationally. Most mods are pretty decent people. I even had a warning taken off my record by having a chat with the mod and finding out what he objected to. It was a generalization and I really should have qualified it correctly as a stereotype that I may or may not support.

Yep. The point is, if two people are quoting each other back and forth, whether they be arguing (hopefully civilly) over something, or two friends having some friendly banter, either way it's not really something we want to discourage (by way of the low content rule at least).

And yet I got a low content warning when quoting someone!

That isn't a conversation. Otherwise the people just saying "this" when quoting someone would be okay. And we don't need that.

Well how else are we supposed to express our agreement with the quoted post?

By adding to the conversation, one way or another. You can agree, then explain your reasoning.

 

[Marter]

Ah... I see...

I have a suggestion for you: Why not put in something like an "I agree" button for posts?

That's a staff call; the moderators can't do anything about it.

I can't remember the official reason why it hasn't happened. There was a <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.404530-Poll-The-Escapist-Forums-Suggestion-The-Option-to-Award-Posts>thread a couple of days back about a similar idea, though, so it's not like it is an idea that hasn't been recently seen. My guess would be that it doesn't really add anything (to the discussion), so there's not much point to it.

I suggest to you to Use the contact forum to suggest it again, though, if you feel it is something that should be added.

 

[Eleuthera]

I got three warning in rapid succession before I could even react to the first warning, it was right after the low content rule was brought in. It's not just low content posts.

The low-content rule has been in effect for at least as long as I've been here, you only predate me by 6 weeks. And the mods were a lot stricter back then, they/we have become quite a bit more lenient in recent years imo.

Some things aren't in the forum rules at all. I got one for making an it "personal"... when the person I was replying to put their entire case in personal terms. Another for being rude, not swearing at nor verbal abuse, simply referring to another user in a different thread as being "stupid". One before that for saying how disgusted I was about someone gloating about shoving an elderly woman off a bus. I kid you not. Though the sanction was reversed, the 6 month timer was still reset.

Calling someone "stupid" is very clearly an insult, that should not have to be explained. And if a sanction is reversed the 6 months revert to the last infraction as well.

I can see how the tokens system can condition people to be nice... but the 6 month lag time is too long, you forget what you were sanctioned for.

How do you forget what you were sanctioned for? You were sanctioned for low-content, you stop posting low-content. You were sanctioned for insulting someone, you stop insulting people. You don't just stop breaking the rules for a bit and then start breaking them again, and if you do you will end up being perma-banned.

 

[Naqel]

On one hand, I don't post nearly enough to get into trouble, so no personal experience here.

On the other, some of the posts I've seen people get banned for I could not see anything wrong about.

Balancing on my head though, is the fact that each post that received a warning I saw, did so for rather obvious reasons.


I don't have the co-ordination to balance any additional considerations, though all in all while I find the moderation fair, it still is a bit harsh at places.

 

[jawz13]

It is their house so we must follow their rules.
I don't really see how concepts like "fair" and "unfair" even come into play.
It is what it is.

 

[sky14kemea]

If you have 10 infractions over the years, then either you're getting them often enough that they aren't being removed, or you've not been here that long at all.

It may not improve the Escapist, but it doesn't hinder it either.

But it's not 10 infractions in a year... it can be 8 infractions over 3-4 years... an infraction about every 6 months.

"Over the years." I know it's not 10 in a year. D:

And people get rather mixed messages. Moviebob, Yahtzee and JimQuisition all take highly confrontational stances, regularly swear and belittle people. You can't be surprised if a small proportion of that is reflected in the forums. They rant and they flame and they don't warn their audience not to emulate them in the comments box advertised below.

That comes up a lot. It's a difficult question to answer without making people angrier about it. The basic jist is: Because they provide free content to the forum users, they have a bit of leeway with using overly-offensive language.

They're not attacking the forums personally, they never have as far as I know. If they go into a thread and start cussing out a specific user, they will get the same treatment as everyone else. But yes, their videos/articles are exempt.

How do you know it doesn't hinder escapist... it really depends what escapist is supposed to be and if it is as the title suggests, escapism... encountering such a pervasive docking system is disheartening. It's hanging over you always.

Simply because, I've been here almost 5 years, and the forums have stayed just about the same traffic/people wise. People come and go, the ones who can't follow the rules just go a little faster.

In fiscal terms, how many people avoid the forums entirely not wanting to get invested only to be kicked out... that's a lot of eyes not looking at banner ads. The code of conduct is not comprehensive, I constantly find myself having to PM new forum users not to say or do certain things for fear of reprimands. I've seen more than one leave for other forums with similar rules but more lenient punishment system.

Then that's their personal choice. We're not forcing you to stay and put up with our rules. There are a lot of people who don't have accounts and come to watch the videos, which accounts for the viewing of ads.

I don't think you should downplay the importance of your moderation with "It may not improve the Escapist" as you work does help, but the system, not the human moderators, limits the good you people can do. I thing WHAT you moderate for I correct, I don't think the system fits well with that though.

The system is set by the Staff, so any system complaints really should go to them. However, as a Moderator, you're free to quit if you don't agree with the system. I know the system is flawed, but it also makes my work a bit quicker, which helps me get to more problems in a day.

You know how long it takes for a shattered femur to heal?

2-3 months.

Why is it twice as long to "recover" from a low content post or being rude (like the stars of the site are) or any number of other things.

It's not recovering, for a start. Most of the infractions weren't "accidents" like breaking a bone is. Yes, 6 months can be a long time, especially to people who visit the forums everyday. But not everyone visits everyday. It's hard to balance equal treatment between the very regular people, and the semi-regular people.

Again, that's all down to the system, so for more info on that you'd need to contact the Staff, or post in the Moderation User Group.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

That time of the forum cycle again? Moderation in my opinion on this forum is fine from what seen and experienced. I've had a few warnings and 1 probation all deserved and managed not to get a single warning for over 3 years and got my health bar reset. I only had a green left anyway and I had to wait the extra year because I got a warning repealed and it counted against the health bar reset.

I got into a few forum "debates" with content providers ages ago. Over reactionary on my part with a few I might add but nothing that got warned. So yes it is possible to talk to people and argue without being banned.

I've never really talked or "discussed" anything with any of the mods on this site more or less ever. I do notice mods become less active since they've been mods which is fair enough and makes sense but I miss seeing the familiar names pop up.

Then the realisation sets in that fuck me I've been coming here for half a decade.

 

[mduncan50]

The only warning I've received in my 5+ years coming to this site was for making fun of the My Little Pony obsessions of grown men, so judging by your avatar I should think you'd be happy.

 

[DalekJaas]

I've been on the escapist for 4 years and the moderation has been terrible consistently for that entire time, its not gonna change.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

Given that most (if not all) of the mods are long-serving forum users themselves, I believe the moderation of the site to be more than adequate. The current mods have been there and done that, as far as being community members is concerned, and they all have a decent handle on what will fly and what won't. The root of the matter really lies with users who don't look over the forum posting guidelines and then cry 'foul' when they run up against rules that they didn't familiarise themselves with.

The only warning I've received in my 5+ years coming to this site was for making fun of the My Little Pony obsessions of grown men, so judging by your avatar I should think you'd be happy.

To be fair, there is something creepy about a bunch of guys in their mid-twenties fixating on a show aimed at seven year-old girls.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

I won't go into detail, but I was once banned because a roommate trolled this site from my IP address with his own, new account.

I thought that was a little unfair because it was just a straight up ban with no warning or judgement or anything. I clearly used the site for its intended purpose, and if they had just messaged me and said that someone was trolling from my IP, I could have spoken to him and the problem would be solved.

Instead, I was "perma-banned" for almost 2 years.

After not coming here at all for that whole time, I ended up in these forums for some reason and restated my case to a mod. This time they were much more forgiving and I was able to get my account back after a bit of pleading (since it was a special case).

Also, I was once arguing with a self-declared pedophile a few years back about how he shouldn't be allowed to have sex with children and was banned for a month because I insulted him, but I STILL stand by what I said. I'll admit, he was calm and polite, but that just infuriated me because he was acting like I was the bad guy for calling him out. He was saying some bull about how he was in love with an 8 year old and she loved him and I was trying to explain to him that she was too young to...

...

You know what?

I'm gonna be smart this time and stop there because I don't want to get myself in trouble again, but I felt like that whole situation was a little unfair. I understand that I broke the rules, but... I dunno... I guess I can't see how a mod could have read our argument and decided that I should be punished for pointing out how messed up that guy was.

Regardless, those were all in the past, and the moderation I have seen as of late has been very just and clear cut with multiple warnings for those who are a little dense.

So no, I don't think the Escapist moderation is unfair as of now.

 

[dyre]

It's not that it's harsh, it's that it's very selective in terms of its justice. People get banned for things dozens of posters have gotten away with before them. Also, the 8 or however many it is strike system is nice at first, but for long-time users, it can add up, and it goes away way too slowly.

I've been on the escapist for 4 years and the moderation has been terrible consistently for that entire time, its not gonna change.

Never thought I'd see the words "escapist," "moderation," and "consistent(ly)" in the same sentence!

 

[Spud of Doom]

I can't stand to see someone get banned for a low-content post and yet it seems to happen quite frequently.

NOTE: I'm not familiar at all with "recent events" that some people in this topic seem to be referencing.

As a fellow long-time lurker, this is probably the main thing I notice. I will be reading through a thread and see *USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST*, only to find a relatively tame comment, or something that was a few words long and got slammed for being too short. It does seem to be this sort of thing causing most of the bans that I see when I visit. Based on this, I would say that, at a glance, the moderation does seem to be too harsh.

 

[karamazovnew]

I have a suggestion for you: Why not put in something like an "I agree" button for posts?

Count me in on that. A like/dislike with a list of people on mouse-over (facebook style) with a possibility to sort posts in a thread based on that would be great. It's so hard to read 20+ pages of comments so most comments just repeat each other anyway. This would also be great for lurkers.

EDIT: Actually nevermind.... in a nutshell, from another thread,

...because it's never used like that. People would be looking for the big numbers only. And only the first few posts would see the most action. And stuff beyond the first page would hardly get a looking. And humorous posts would get more praise than well thought-out posts. And yes, friends would like friends more often than not friends.