Poll: is a gun a good tool to have in a household?

[colourcodedchaos]

Hawks_Pride: That would be silly. Of course target shooting would be allowed. The guns, however, would all be fakes, with synthetic recoil.

Also, do you know how many diseases it is possible to catch from bushmeat and hunted meat? Besides, you want to help lower your food bills, grow some vegetables in your back garden. It has the other effect of being healthier than most of the crap your country insists on putting on the table at every available opportunity.

Third, the retired military angle? Won't work at all. Like I said before, competence with a gun is simply not an issue - you aren't military or armed police, you don't have the right to own a gun, and pray to whichever imaginary friend you choose that you aren't found with one.
___________

To the guy banging on about how school shootings won't be solved by banning guns:

Run that through your brain again and see if it makes sense. Besides, the Dunblane massacre is the ONLY school shooting that has happened in Britain in the days after the Cold War. Add the Hungerford tragedy and Jean Charles de Menezes' murder and you have the only three serious gun incidents to grace British news since World War Two (disregarding all those little pissant wars we got involved in).

The States... seems to me like there's another school shooting every few weeks. And that's only the stuff that makes it across the pond.

 

[Zorg Machine]

Shooting a burglar/cheating husband or wife/your dad coming to visit as a surprise or having some tear gas, stun gun, taser, kitchen knife or just any old tool that can cause a trespasser to fall down like a sack of potatoes.

not only will you escape therapy sessions, grief or prison (or all of them) but people may actually feel safe having their kids with you or living with you.

as a final point if you say a gun is a tool why not use a tool that has other functions than killing people to batter your intruders senseless and you will no longer have to worry about getting blood stains on your nice carpet that will fill you with guilt (unless you're a socially oppressed psychopath who kicks babies for a living) or turning your home into a shootout and taking valuable police time since they won't have to wipe your brains of your nice carpet.
what you should take in from this is having a gun means ruining your nice carpet and being stapled as someone who helps the gun companies by giving them enough money to make guns for socially oppressed psychopaths who then barge into your house and splatters your brain over your nice carpet.

 

[TrojanManSCP]

I suppose I'm in the minority here but, as an upstanding American, I believe that every law-abiding adult should be free to exercise their right to keep and bear arms.

I am a competition target shooter but that is not the only reason I own firearms.
I am a member of the military, trained to operate such tools, but that is not the only reason I own firearms.
I have a family that I consider my duty to defend but that is not the only reason I own firearms.
I am a property owner and I consider these tools as a good form of insurance but that is not the only reason I own firearms.


Above all, I am an American citizen. As an officer of the armed forces, I have taken an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States from ALL enemies, foreign and domestic. I consider that oath to be very serious and I believe it is my duty as an able-bodied citizen (that is, a member of the at-large militia) to retain the ability to oppose oppressive government. No other tool gives me that ability better than a good rifle.

Where people fear the government, there is tyrany.
Where the government fears the people, there is freedom.

Too many Americans are willing to sit idle (or is that American Idol?) while their elected officials act in opposition to their security and well-being. The political arena is absolutely the best way to resolve conflicts and we should exercise our First Ammendment rights long before we even need to use the Second. However, we must always retain the capacity for armed resistance because it is by that ability alone that we retain our freedom.

Without the ability to actively resist oppressive government, we are at their mercy and without final recourse. It is not that any of us would ever wish for such violence to be necessary -God forbid that should ever happen again- but we must recognize the possibility of it and acknowledge that it is our personal responsibility alone to preserve our ability to succeed.


My friends, firearms ownership is about a lot more than hunting, target shooting or being in the military. It goes without saying that due diligence should be exercised in the handling of firearms and that good training is a sound investment but such concerns are secondary to the importance of the right to choose to keep and bear arms. One accepts a responsibility when they make that decision, certainly, and perhaps not everyone wishes to do so. However, for those of us who do, the gravity of our decision and our responsibility to our families, friends and fellow countrymen cannot be understated.


A firearm is not simply a good tool to have in a household.

It is the most important one.

 

[MurderousToaster]

If you have a local junkie, probably. I don't. But there's a dog near me, so it would seem like fun.

 

[colourcodedchaos]

Trojanman: Sadly, you AREN'T in the minority.

 

[Trilby]

I hate coming in at the end of a long thread like this, but it looks like it will get longer anyway.

Well, it will only get longer if I quote your entire post in paragraphs, as you did mine, so forgive me if I do not.

Its my favorite posting style, but you do as you like (threads tend to run in #of posts rather than # of words, though escapist might be different)

Then I shall give it a try.

I was pointing out that it seems that your people are very afraid of eachother, since it banned all weapons or anything close enough to be considered a weapon.
If you dont fear a person then there is no reason to disarm them.

I carry a handgun when walking in the pastures, (exercise and recreation mostly) its light and unobtrusive, yet makes a great defense against snakes.
Some people hunt with a handgun
But mostly I consider it a challenging test of marksmanship.
They have more than one use, it is really unfortunate you have not been allowed to find that out for yourself.

Ah, I get you now. Well, knives aren't banned, and neither for that matter is pepper spray. You're just not allowed to carry knives over a certain length on the street. The point is, as you yourself pointed out, that while knives and other hand weapons are basically an extension of your own physicality, a gun can be used lethally at a good distance by a 90 year old grandmother.

As for the uses of handguns, I'm not denying that they have uses. I'm saying that unlike a shotgun, the primary purpose of which is blood sports, the primary purpose of a handgun is use against people. I realise that there are such things as hunting handguns, but to my mind those should be classified as hunting weapons, and treated as such. Also, I hunt and shoot regularly, but I would never dream of doing so with a handgun. I value an animal's suffering (or the lack thereof) above my gain in marksmanship. As for the snakes, I admit myself unacquainted with the serpentes of your pastures. In my sweet and pleasant land, the worst that nature can through at you wyrm-wise is an adder, which is easily dealt with without the need for a firearm. As for the point on marksmanship, do you mind if I leave that for a few more paragraphs? I intend to clear that up with another quote.

Not really, I have shown that a high proportion of firearms in a population != crime in that population, proving that guns != crime
Which begs the question: Why do we keep talking about guns, why dont we try to fix the real problems which cause crime.

Because a frequently lobbied argument by those opposed to gun control is that by having homeowners armed, the crime rates go down. Which, as we have shown to each other's satisfaction, is not the case. And also, to be a bit facetious, because that's a topic for another thread.

School shootings are a sign of more severe problems in our youth, those problems will not be solved by banning guns.

Maybe not, but without a gun they couldn't really happen. I'll admit that that's a weak point, and quickly divert attention from it by remarking that even so, a mentally unstable person should not be able to legally gain access to a handgun.

Also, as it has already been pointed out, the incident at Dunblane was not the work of a teenager, but a man only a score and ten off his allocated total.

And if certain folks had their way, I'd have to find a new hobby? What if football (GASP! A Yank who doesn't call it soccer?! Yeah. Now go collect your socks.) were banned because of the football hooligans? Now tell me how the things are different.
Semi-unrelated rant, STOP!

Firstly, my point of view is that if you want to practice marksmanship, then go to a range, pick up a gun there, practice and then return the gun before leaving. If that facility is not available (I've only ever been to UK military ranges) then it should be. There is no need to take the gun home with you.

Secondly: Guns and football hooligans? Oh dear. A gun is designed to kill things. It may be dressed up in pink and sold to Hello Kitty fangirls, but it's still a machine for killing things. The aim of a football hooligan (as a general rule) is not to kill things. I see your point though.

The thing is, I'm not saying ban guns because of school shootings. I'm saying that handguns, guns specifically designed to kill people as opposed to animals, should not be available to the general public for ownership. Trying desperately to steer this back in direction of the OP, a gun is a good tool to have in a household, as a tool. Where it is not good is when it's not just a tool. And unfortunately, it isn't.

EDIT: I omitted a "not" in the above paragraph. Oh good God.

 

[Hawks_Pride]

Hawks_Pride: That would be silly. Of course target shooting would be allowed. The guns, however, would all be fakes, with synthetic recoil.

Then it's not target shooting, is it?

Also, do you know how many diseases it is possible to catch from bushmeat and hunted meat? Besides, you want to help lower your food bills, grow some vegetables in your back garden. It has the other effect of being healthier than most of the crap your country insists on putting on the table at every available opportunity.

Properly prepared, deer meat (just as an example) is as healthy, if not more so, than anything you'll find at a supermarket. Just as safe, too. As well, some folks simply do not have the time or the patience to grow fresh veg in the backyard, or they kill anything they put in the ground that wasn't already dead.

Third, the retired military angle? Won't work at all. Like I said before, competence with a gun is simply not an issue - you aren't military or armed police, you don't have the right to own a gun, and pray to whichever imaginary friend you choose that you aren't found with one.

I see that all my arguements will fall on deaf ears; I will not be able to sway you from your feelings on this, any more than you will be able to sway me from mine. Thus, I invite you to continue to rant away until you're blue in the fingers.

EDIT:

Secondly: Guns and football hooligans? Oh dear. A gun is designed to kill things. It may be dressed up in pink and sold to Hello Kitty fangirls, but it's still a machine for killing things.

Aha! The Hello Kitty AR is internationally famous!

You just made my day, Trilby. Thanks.

Referring back to your first point: The local range is BYOB; Bring Your Own Boomstick. It's also got a zero-tolerance policy on booze and non-prescription psychoactive substances; show up drunk, you are politely shown off the range and invited to stay off at least until you get the bag off.

 

[mike1921]

People who want to keep handguns at home doesnt want to have them for protection, they want them because they theyre attracted to guns and it gives them the feeling of power.

Bullshit.

I'm saying ban guns because of school shootings

They don't happen enough where that statement is not bullshit. And if I die from a gun, I'd rather it be from my own hand or a friend's hand by accident than letting a criminal who broke into my house kill me without me having a fair chance because the prick brought his friends.

 

[TrojanManSCP]

Trojanman: Sadly, you AREN'T in the minority.

Sadly? I'm very sorry that you feel that way.

I have no tolerance for those who would use firearms -or any other weapon- to inflict harm and suffering on their fellow man. Such criminals are the most lowly scum to ever populate this great Earth and they are a blight upon all that is good about human society.

But make no mistake, their evil bears no relationship to the tools with which they act. Evil has existed in the hearts of men since the dawn of free will (however you believe that came about) and it will continue to exist, regardless of the course or availability of technology.

It is precisely because men have the capacity for evil that those of us inclined towards righteousness have an obligation to protect ourselves and those who cannot defend themselves.


How can we ask a government to protect us when we do not have the will to protect ourselves?
Why would a sane man give up his right to defend his way of life to another?

It is delusion to believe that those who have power will never abuse it.


All of history is a witness to this fact: Should you sleep soundly without fear, it is because others stand ready to defend you.
Ask yourself this: What happens when those who protect you instead become your oppressors?


I simply choose to accept my personal responsibility to defend myself, my family and my nation. There is no arrogance here, there is no desire for glory. I don't ask for praise of any kind. I am an ordinary man, doing what I can to contribute to and preserve a society that I love, for better or for worse. I am not proud of everything my government does but I will fight to preserve the principles it represents.


It's a serious responsibility and I know it's not the choice for everyone but it's my choice and I would not be lamented for it.

 

[Hawks_Pride]

People who want to keep handguns at home doesnt want to have them for protection, they want them because they theyre attracted to guns and it gives them the feeling of power.

Bullshit.

Seconded.

I'm saying ban guns because of school shootings

They don't happen enough where that statement is not bullshit. And if I die from a gun, I'd rather it be from my own hand or a friend's hand by accident than letting a criminal who broke into my house kill me without me having a fair chance because the prick brought his friends.

Also seconded.

 

[TheDean]

no. never, having a gun gives you the desire to use it. also, why would you need one? you shouldn't need to shoot people.

I agree. And I also shouldn't have to pay to get a physical exam done, but I did, not three hours ago.

We do not live in a perfect world. Deal with it however you like. It is not my place to tell you how. By the same token, it is not your place to tell me how to deal with it.

The diplomatic version of that: You dun bodda me, I dun bodda you.

i'm just sayin'. how can you justify having a gun? why is that good?

 

[Hawks_Pride]

i'm just sayin'. how can you justify having a gun? why is that good?

Easy. They're fascinating mechanical devices, if nothing else.

 

[Trilby]

I'm saying ban guns because of school shootings

Yeah, that sentence of mine should have had a "not" in the middle of it. Fairly epic typo, really. Sorry bout that.

Aha! The Hello Kitty AR is internationally famous!

You just made my day, Trilby. Thanks.

We aim to please.

Referring back to your first point: The local range is BYOB; Bring Your Own Boomstick. It's also got a zero-tolerance policy on booze and non-prescription psychoactive substances; show up drunk, you are politely shown off the range and invited to stay off at least until you get the bag off.

Fair enough. I agree with the sentiment expressed by a previous poster, who said that the cultures are different; that what works here may not work there and vice versa. I can only really speak from the perspective of an Englishman: viz that a gun is a good tool for a home provided that it is only a tool.

As regards your shooting range, I can see how that arrangement can work fine, but the point I'm making is that tighter gun control needn't necessarily deprive people of their hobbies. It's all fun and games until someone goes mental and kills a score of schoolkids.

 

[Hawks_Pride]

As regards your shooting range, I can see how that arrangement can work fine, but the point I'm making is that tighter gun control needn't necessarily deprive people of their hobbies. It's all fun and games until someone goes mental and kills a score of schoolkids.

Someone mentioned a 'rental range' earlier in the thread, actually.

Most shooting ranges in the States are you-supply-the-gun-and-ammo, as far as I'm aware. There are a few specialty ranges that rent out various weapons to paying customers, but by and large, most supply their own guns and ammo (though some buy the ammo there). Such specialty ranges often make a point of renting out fully-automatic weapons (though with the recent tragic death of a 6-year old kid in New England, that's like to get kicked in the head), ones that are rare, or otherwise difficult for the average person to come by. And while the specialty ranges are often very good about the upkeep of the weapons they rent out, a) Few ranges have the funding to maintain a climate controlled building, let alone a full armory, and b) even if they could, they'd still need people to staff it, and those folks would have to know how to maintain all sorts of weapons (and yes, cleaning of weapons is absolutely necessary, even AK's; just because they can take horrendous abuse doesn't mean that they should be regularly subjected to it).

 

[Dom541]

no. never, having a gun gives you the desire to use it. also, why would you need one? you shouldn't need to shoot people.

theres all sorts of people out there.. you just may need to shoot a fue of them

 

[TheDean]

i'm just sayin'. how can you justify having a gun? why is that good?

Easy. They're fascinating mechanical devices, if nothing else.

haha! but of course. But just because they're cool doesn't mean they're good.

 

[TheDean]

no. never, having a gun gives you the desire to use it. also, why would you need one? you shouldn't need to shoot people.

theres all sorts of people out there.. you just may need to shoot a fue of them

aw come on. You can't go killing people. That's not right.

 

[Trilby]

As regards your shooting range, I can see how that arrangement can work fine, but the point I'm making is that tighter gun control needn't necessarily deprive people of their hobbies. It's all fun and games until someone goes mental and kills a score of schoolkids.

Someone mentioned a 'rental range' earlier in the thread, actually.

Most shooting ranges in the States are you-supply-the-gun-and-ammo, as far as I'm aware. There are a few specialty ranges that rent out various weapons to paying customers, but by and large, most supply their own guns and ammo (though some buy the ammo there). Such specialty ranges often make a point of renting out fully-automatic weapons (though with the recent tragic death of a 6-year old kid in New England, that's like to get kicked in the head), ones that are rare, or otherwise difficult for the average person to come by. And while the specialty ranges are often very good about the upkeep of the weapons they rent out, a) Few ranges have the funding to maintain a climate controlled building, let alone a full armory, and b) even if they could, they'd still need people to staff it, and those folks would have to know how to maintain all sorts of weapons (and yes, cleaning of weapons is absolutely necessary, even AK's; just because they can take horrendous abuse doesn't mean that they should be regularly subjected to it).

Apologies to the poor poster whose point on rental ranges I overlooked. You have my condolences.

Hmm... And still on the theme of info gathering, how much does it cost on average to go to one of these ranges. Your local, for instance?

 

[Hawks_Pride]

i'm just sayin'. how can you justify having a gun? why is that good?

Easy. They're fascinating mechanical devices, if nothing else.

haha! but of course. But just because they're cool doesn't mean they're good.

They're not good.

They're not bad, either.

They are tools. They can be tools for liberation, or for oppression. Sometimes, they can be both at once. If a criminal takes a 7-iron to his victim's head, do we deem the golf club to be bad?

Hmm... And still on the theme of info gathering, how much does it cost on average to go to one of these ranges. Your local, for instance?

The range is actually a semi-private one. It's free for members of the club the range belongs to. Membership fees for the club are US$40/year, I think. That, and it's implied that you'll help with scheduled range cleanup days, and police your brass. It's also free if you wanna show up on a match day and compete, though they prefer if a member brings you. Otherwise, there's a locked gate, and you get busted for trespassing if someone catches you.

Past that, I don't know.