Poll: Is abortion murder?

[tobi the good boy]

we are having this one again, no it is not murder, it is not concious and at this poitn is just a bunch of cells, BUT morally i view adoption to be better (i acknowledge that there are times when this is not always the case)

No matter what it is be it cell, plant, animal, person...killing is murder.

Killing may be killing but killing isnt always murder, and the question is where or not abortion is "murder"

 

[Eldarion]

Why exactly do you all feel so strongly for a womans right to abort a fetus anyway? What gives anyone that right? A woman has a right to choose weather or not she has a baby, but I say she made that choice when she had sex. Even with birth control you are still risking pregnancy, even if by less than 1% chance. Why have sex if you can't accept the consequences of your actions? Thats what the pro abortion stance is. Its just enabling bad judgement. After all why should you have to deal with the consequences of your decisions right?

Woah! This isn't about 'wimmin's rights', I don't think (bar rape) any woman should have the right to abort a foetus unless the father signs off on it too (and whoever refuses to sign off on the abortion has the duty to raise the child). This is about what it means to be alive. So far you've provided no more of an argument than "it's alive because that's my opinion" and that's just invalid. Saying "that's my opinion" is less than worthless in a debate since the purpose of a debate is to ascertain an agreed-upon truth which two originally disagreeing parties can agree upon.

So you judge human life as sacred at any stage? What about a murderer? Or a genocidal maniac? What's qualitatively different about these people that allows them to be killed and dodge the 'human life at any stage of development should be protected' rule? Try and be precise, moral laws always ought to be precise so that they can be accurately enforced.

Life isn't something that can be quantified and categorized. Weather or not something is alive in other cases is sometimes up for scientific debate. I just can't look at a potential human as a pile of cells. "Life" isn't an absolutely black and white term, to some groups it begins at different stages than to other groups. I'm gonna have to say that I consider a fetus alive. I also don't thing the abortion debate should be decided on weather or not the fetus is technically "alive" by someones arbitrary designation. I'm not willing to just point at a person in the first stages and go "oh well thats not alive it doesn't have X percent of its brain" or something equally as insipid.

As for murderers, criminals? Our prison systems are built to "reform" them remember? Executing them is going against the entire point of the system.

Remember that the whole abortion debate started as a womans rights movement or sorts. I just wanted to challenge that aspect of it.

 

[Cain_Zeros]

Is killing a tapeworm murder? While it's still in the womb a foetus is, in the biological sense of the word, a parasite. It takes nutrients from the mother, and while it's in there she doesn't get anything out of it, other than discomfort, etc.

 

[alinos]

Woah! This isn't about 'wimmin's rights', I don't think (bar rape) any woman should have the right to abort a foetus unless the father signs off on it too (and whoever refuses to sign off on the abortion has the duty to raise the child)

so what your saying there is that if i was to knock up my GF by accident and she wanted an abortion but i wanted the kid. the government should force her to 9 months of pain and limited mobility due to work and what not purely because i want the kid

Dude thats sicker than fucking abortion that there is equivilant to slavery

Youd have guys knocking up there GF and wanting to keep the baby in the hope that instead of dumping there ass theyd stick around(or get married) because they would want to see this baby theve been forced to birth. which would inevitably lead to a divorce or a bad home life making the kid have an even worse dynamic

 

[RMcD94]

Technically, it's not alive, so no.

How is it now alive? Did you know that by week 4 the baby already has a heart and a circulatory system? And the heart starts beating by week 5?

If it was taken out of the mother it would die. So technically it isn't human or anything viable for that matter. It is not murder. Once the baby can survive outside of the mother it becomes illegal to abort or kill because that point it does become murder.

I assume you are pro-murdering people who are in comas then? Since they are not independent and require other people to survive. Actually, pro killing anyone who couldn't survive independently?

If thats you assumption I guess it must be true, you are the hero after all, making me look like a villain for presenting a thoughtful argument with facts.

Then I'd make myself look like a villain, being for what I mentioned.

 

[Eldarion]

Why exactly do you all feel so strongly for a womans right to abort a fetus anyway? What gives anyone that right? A woman has a right to choose weather or not she has a baby, but I say she made that choice when she had sex. Even with birth control you are still risking pregnancy, even if by less than 1% chance. Why have sex if you can't accept the consequences of your actions? Thats what the pro abortion stance is. Its just enabling bad judgement. After all why should you have to deal with the consequences of your decisions right?

abortion should be legal at any point. any time a person is forced to support another life at the expense of their own is highly ethically questionable. much more so than the destruction of a potential or actual life that cannot support itself.

You aren't forced. You took the risk when you had sex.

 

[Andantil]

Until it is self aware, it is not a human.

 

[Eldarion]

There are a few exceptions, rape or if the birth threatens the life of the mother I can understand.

You mentioned aborting a life is murder because you are killing a human. Are you saying now though that if you're the product of rape you're somewhat less worthy of life? I'm strongly pro-choice but this argument contradicts your stance that the mother doesn't have the right to infringe on the child's right; whether the product of a horrible situation or not.

But if you are gonna have sex you need to accept the very real possibility that you are gonna have a baby on your hands. Aborting a potential life because of the mothers poor judgement isn't something I can get behind.

Potential life in my honest opinion is a rather absurd idea. Are you saying that if the guy pulls out just before conception that its not wrong but terminating the pregnancy shortly thereafter is? Because at both points the potential life lack consciousness, the ability to feel pain and the ability to feel pleasure. The only difference between the two is that one has become a physical reality and the other has not. In reality though the outcome of it never being conceived and its being aborted (before the three aforementioned qualities develop) are exactly the same.

In addition following your moral philosophy to the logical end may result in some interesting views on pro creation. As you value potential life so much does that not mean that we should fulfill as many potential lives as possible?

If I make the distinction that life starts when the sperm and egg unite its equally as arbitrary as you saying it doesn't. I think we have to agree to disagree.

 

[RMcD94]

Posting on an unrelated note to my previous posts.

mur·der (mûrdr)
n.
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
2. Slang Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.
3. A flock of crows. See Synonyms at flock1.
v. mur·dered, mur·der·ing, mur·ders
v.tr.
1. To kill (another human) unlawfully.
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.
3. To put an end to; destroy: murdered their chances.
4. To spoil by ineptness; mutilate: a speech that murdered the English language.
5. Slang To defeat decisively; trounce.
v.intr.
To commit murder.
Idioms:
get away with murder Informal
To escape punishment for or detection of an egregiously blameworthy act.
murder will out
Secrets or misdeeds will eventually be disclosed.

The real question is whether a group of cells are human or not.

I was going to say a group of cells inside a womb, but then I thought about artificial creation.

 

[Margrave Rinstock]

I personally think it is murder. Lumps of flesh don't have ears and eyes, and they don't swallow and have the ability to kick you while in the womb.

There should be a "no, but am still not in favor option".

I understand wanting an abortion if your child will be severely mentally handicapped. Rape victims, I also understand, but I say we should place Lives, no matter how small they may be, over the Pride and Comfort of people who got themselves into the situation on their own.

 

[Eldarion]

There are a few exceptions, rape or if the birth threatens the life of the mother I can understand.

Using your argument, explain why these are morally acceptable exceptions?

In the case of the mothers life being threatened, I just feel the life of a person is worth more than a potential person. That does not mean its acceptable if the mother life isn't in danger.

Suddenly it's potential life? I thought it was alive! Dear me, suddenly arguments are changing.

Rape causes permanent psychological harm, probably even more harm if the mother has to deliver the baby. Again its the mothers health over the babys.

Under any other circumstance, why should a mother be allowed to decide the fate of a potential person when it poses no threat to her?

So, harm to one person is more important than another person? No?

So if the mother becomes retarded, say, during pregnancy, it's now okay to abort? Even though the adoption option is still there?

My argument is the same potential life=life. Once the sperm and egg unite I consider it alive. You saying its not is an equally arbitrary and pointless designation.

I don't understand your second sentence.

 

[RMcD94]

I personally think it is murder. Lumps of flesh don't have ears and eyes, and they don't swallow and have the ability to kick you while in the womb.

There should be a "no, but am still not in favor option".

I understand wanting an abortion if your child will be severely mentally handicapped. Rape victims, I also understand, but I say we should place Lives, no matter how small they may be, over the Pride and Comfort of people who got themselves into the situation on their own.

Define a life.

 

[RMcD94]

There are a few exceptions, rape or if the birth threatens the life of the mother I can understand.

Using your argument, explain why these are morally acceptable exceptions?

In the case of the mothers life being threatened, I just feel the life of a person is worth more than a potential person. That does not mean its acceptable if the mother life isn't in danger.

Suddenly it's potential life? I thought it was alive! Dear me, suddenly arguments are changing.

Rape causes permanent psychological harm, probably even more harm if the mother has to deliver the baby. Again its the mothers health over the babys.

Under any other circumstance, why should a mother be allowed to decide the fate of a potential person when it poses no threat to her?

So, harm to one person is more important than another person? No?

So if the mother becomes retarded, say, during pregnancy, it's now okay to abort? Even though the adoption option is still there?

My argument is the same potential life=life. Once the sperm and egg unite I consider it alive. You saying its not is an equally arbitrary and pointless designation.

I don't understand your second sentence.

If potential life=life, then what you are saying is that it's okay to murder someone if someone else lives from it.

And against rape, your saying that it's okay to murder someone if that person might have hurt that persons, mentally and physically, but not fatally.

 

[BlumiereBleck]

Yes it is murder. Once the sperm hits the egg it's alive. Also when a woman who a week after becoming pregnant gets murdered it counts a double homicide, because there was a fetish in her.

 

[Costaine]

If I make the distinction that life starts when the sperm and egg unite its equally as arbitrary as you saying it doesn't. I think we have to agree to disagree.

No. I do agree life start at conception. However I believe it is irrelevant. My position is not arbitrary because my decision is based on actual relevant knowledge. I permit the killing of a being that does not have the three qualities of consciousness, ability to feel pain and ability to feel pleasure.

You however chose something entirely arbitrary; based only upon a sanctity of human life view without consideration of the qualities of the life involved.

 

[RMcD94]

Yes it is murder. Once the sperm hits the egg it's alive. Also when a woman who a week after becoming pregnant gets murdered it counts a double homicide, because there was a fetish in her.

Recent news: Killing furries is a double homicide due to their fetish.



Also, why not when fertilisation takes place? The sperm nucleus has to travel to the egg nucleus to fuse. If it was stopped before, it's murder?

And why is stopping an egg and a sperm meeting not murder? Why is destroying a sperm/egg not murder?

 

[Margrave Rinstock]

I personally think it is murder. Lumps of flesh don't have ears and eyes, and they don't swallow and have the ability to kick you while in the womb.

There should be a "no, but am still not in favor option".

I understand wanting an abortion if your child will be severely mentally handicapped. Rape victims, I also understand, but I say we should place Lives, no matter how small they may be, over the Pride and Comfort of people who got themselves into the situation on their own.

Define a life.

In this case, something with capacity or potential for a reasonable degree of thought, emotion, and moral reasoning.

And in case you were wondering, I also apply this reasoning to many animals, and therefore I am a vegetarian.

 

[stridernfs]

That is the problem with using the word "technically" because you still have to explain and understand why its "technically". The problem with using "technically" is that it is not "technically" not "considered" ( i hate that word in this context) alive until it is out of the womb, and that is when they kill, exuse me "abort" the baby leaving any sane mother with a large amount of stress and anxiety as well as depression

Technically, it's not alive, so no.

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/tul/pap1.html