Poll: Is adding female models to games more trouble than it's worth?

[Smooth Operator]

Well yes adding female models is extra work, but it's those extra features that sell the game, we don't pay them 60$ so they can be lazy assholes... Brink is well worth mentioning here.

Alright Brink is a strange debacle because they somehow lost all their work halfway in, and what they managed to scrape together afterwards isn't even half as good... but still we are asked to pay full price for an almost game, no.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Depends if you think you'd get a sexism lawsuit I suppose.

 

[Lerasai]

I think it might be because most of the armies in a lot of countries consist of mostly men. I don't really support that idea, but it sounds like the most obvious reason.

Yeah, that's one of those actually reasonable excuses to do it. I only resent the idea that it's not even worth it to include women when you're able to and it makes sense to.

When you're doing a game based on a real war and a real battle where women weren't present then it doesn't make sense to rewrite history. But, if its a game that takes place in fully populated towns, villages, cities, etc. then it would be insane for there to be hundreds of men and not a single woman. Unless they're planning on making male pregnancy a plot point it makes absolutely no sense.

... I think mpreg would get a lot of girls to play, though. Slash fangirls are a hardcore bunch. You put even a minuscule amount of gay into something and they are all over that shiz.

 

[Aris Khandr]

All it tells me if the designers don't feel it is worth it to put female characters into a game that offers character creation is that they don't want my money. That's it, full stop. If it is "worth it" to allow character customization, it is "worth it" to allow me to actually play me. If the developers disagree, then their game isn't worth anything as far as I am concerned.

 

[Supertegwyn]

I've found, with RO2 and *especially* Brink, that there were tons of people that wanted women in game, and I'm starting to get annoyed, not so much with the request, but that people think that it's simply easy to add a female model.
I understand the fairness, but in Brink and RO2 it'd be simply visual. I'd have no problem with that except for the fact that it wouldn't affect game play, and in order to implement it you would need to-
-Create new skeletons
-Create new models
-Create new animations
-New textures
-New voice acting
-New programming
Along with probably one or two things I've not learned about yet on my degree path. Again, I see why you'd want female characters in games like this, but it's a strikingly *massive* money and manpower expense for something that doesn't change game play at all.
I'm all for female characters in game, but implementing them could easily add another month and a couple hundred thousand to a couple million more dollars to the release of a game that size.
Honestly, I'd prefer to play a game that gives back more money to the studio even if it means that I might not have tits. Maybe it makes more of a difference to people that aren't me, but hey.
What are you guy's two cents?

In FPS games, I couldnt give a fuck what gender my character was. I play dominant female character rosters, but When i got to play brink i just made one bad ass looking dude. I didnt care that it was a guy, It was kinda cool to see a game with a fashion base for males that DIDNT suck ass at making male fashion. Brink was just fine without girls, I had a blast, and If the game wasnt so fucking expensive i'd have it right now and be proud of my monkeybutt knuckledragging bag of testosterone with an automatic rifle.

But in RPGs and MMOs, Girls only sorry, men need not apply.
If an RPG game offers a gender lock on classes, i will NEVER play a class that is "male only"
All my RPG characters are female.
In my Teams in JRPGs, Female dominante teams.
My Xenosaga team was KosMos MoMo and Ziggy.
In FFXII Fran Ashe and Penelo.
Infact the guys in FFXII Have never really even seen combat in my gamesaves.

Also whats RO2?

Red Orchestra 2. Google it.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

There's a huge difference between RO2 and Brink though. One is a "realism" FPS with the intent to be realistic. The other is a persistent online FPS that tauted "Customizability" as its' main selling point, that your avatar would be unique and different and that it was all about choosing how you wanted your character to look.

Sure, Brink allowed loads of customizability. As long as you didn't want to be a woman. The entire point of the "rage" against Brink is that its' selling point was that you could look anyway you wanted... As long as you didn't want to play a woman. In a game where player choice and freedom was supposed to define the character creation, they didn't include women.

If you will, the decision to allow loads of customizability but not giving players the choice to have female characters could be seen as a great indication on how little progress the game industry actually has made when it cames to integrating women, as creators, as players and as an actual part of the gaming culture as a whole.

Is adding female models more trouble than it is worth? Depends on the game. But if you are going for freedom of choice in making your avatar, then you better well include women. As someone suggested above, it might also be fun to reverse the question: "Is including male models more trouble than it is worth?" I mean, why should male characters be the standard? Why not female?

 

[Harla]

Heck ,Geth, why not just dispense with the dilemma and have all central-protaganist driven games depict the player character as an asexually indefinite model, and never identify a gender. I'm sure that'd make absolutely everyone happy...

The flat answer is no, it's not more effort than it's worth, and I don't believe that such a thing should ever really come up as a question. If you're the sort of person who doens't give an expletive about including all gamers, male and female alike, and are only interested in cutting out features that you personally have no interest in, then I cna see why it might be asked... but provided you've got half a mind to a little bit progress and inclusiveness, and especially if you sell your game on customisation and choice, then you'd better well have the choice that a large portion (not nearly so small as the game industry seems to think) are going to want to choose.

-Harla

 

[IBlackKiteI]

One thing which suprisingly hasn't been raised yet, in shooters characters die, often in brutal, messy ways.
Do you seriously wanna see a female character be shot/stabbed/blown up/chainsawed/beheaded/whateverelse in game?
Just a thought, and female characters just don't belong in most games which aim to feature realistic-ish combat scenarios anyway. Would it make much sense for female combatants to be running around in a match of Call of Duty of Battlefield?

Also, somewhat away from just the topic of female avatars, there's a lot of people sort of implying that a game that features customization must be customizable in almost every way no matter what. But that's almost like saying if I wanted a plumber named Dave who used a badger as a weapon then the game should always provide me with one regardless of how messed up it would be and time consuming to create.

Then there's the simple lack of understanding of how much work decent female playable characters complete with detailed customization options would entail. Read the first few lines of the OP again. Then again.
You can't just slap 'em on and call it a day or it ends up being ridiculous.

Anyway rather than go into epic detail and take a lot of time, (damn study...) I'll just say it like this.
In general;
Developers who aim for their game to be ridiculously customizable and could potentially feature female characters in combat without it not making sense yet don't include them - Not cool, unless there's a pretty decent excuse (still, remember...CHAINSAWS)
Developers who aim for their game to be ridiculously customizable but it would make no sense for the game's setting to include female combatants - That's ok
Players who hate a game on the basis that it's multiplayer does not include female characters. - You. Suck.

 

[KarlMonster]

I've found, with RO2 and *especially* Brink, that there were tons of people that wanted women in game, and I'm starting to get annoyed, not so much with the request, but that people think that it's simply easy to add a female model.

Especially Brink huh? The game Brink? Brink where in the character design/upgrade/'dress me up daddy' screens the model doesn't stand there, but *bounces*. Brink where the character model looks around displaying his facial hair/haircut/scars and his relatively impossible yet suitably impressive musculature. That Brink? Brink, which is so hung up on its ability to fully render and customize the player character, that you can select an outfit that is properly accessorized to properly set of you hair and or eye color? Is this the game that we're talking about? Brink; the game that is absolutely obsessed with its ability to render a male body in minute detail, this is the game where you don't understand a desire for a female model?

Well son, let me explain it to you this way. When mommy developer and daddy developer love their software idea very much, they plead with a stern-faced Reverend Publisher....
Yeah, OK, that wasn't going anywhere, but it was funny for about 1.5 seconds.

And I'm going to disagree with you a little. "It doesn't change game play at all." You are underestimating how important the character design is to Brink. I'll admit that I have only played the game for about a weekend. And it was fun. But I would have been hard pressed to stay interested in Brink for even a month. Brink does have some nifty features, and those features are both in the macro-scale (gameplay and level design) and micro-scale (character design). Yet the gameplay wasn't so impressive that it alone makes Brink a success. I really liked the level design, and the fact that the parkour thing adds a whole new dimension to level design.

Adding a female character (something that should have been done pre-release, along with about 5 other things that I won't mention) could conceivably have expanded the potential player base. [Yeah, I know, most wimmen hate FPS anyway] But the female model would ALSO give players like myself a reason to stay interested in the game longer.

Because I *totally* want to play Brink as a big-boned heavy weapon dyke b... ruiser.

(And that's not sexist because I'm talking about me)
Additionally, you don't actually have to re-create the player skeleton from scratch - unless you go with the Fantasy Female model that looks like two watermelons glued to a stop sign. If you make the rash assumption that the female model is going to have the same impossible muscle tone as the male model, then the skeletons can be the same, and only the adolescent males will cry about the absence of BO-dacious mammaries.

And also... I could swear that when I played Brink, that there WERE female NPCs. If you're complaining about making female models just for the masturbatory look-at-how-well-rendered-our-shit-is screen, then you must have skipped that day in 'visual appeal' class. The Brink team must have known that the game would have a short life span without a heavy amount of DLC. And if they DID plan to bring the DLC, they should have had the sense to schedule the female model coding before the release date. And if the Brink team didn't anticipate the need, they should have.

Edit: "Do you seriously wanna see a female character be shot/stabbed/blown up/chainsawed/beheaded/whateverelse in game?"

Oh yes, Black Kite, I very much do. And the ability to pick up a chunk of body separated from the torso above the pelvis. Then call a team mate over to make a wish.

 

[BanicRhys]

I'm going to assume both of those games aren't subscription based (I don't even know what RO2 is).

Why put all that work in a game when you're not going to get any of the money back. I hardly think female models is a selling point for games, women make up a tiny minority of players etc etc.

 

[SwagLordYoloson]

If the developers want to make a game the way they want to make it, then that is their choice. People, it is not up to you to decide what goes in a game, it is up to you to judge the quality of the game. If you play a game, don't like its features for what ever reason, then return it. If you know it is going to be missing something you don't like, or has something you don't want, just don't buy it in the first place. It is in no way going to stop games like Brink from existing, because they have a market. But it is common sense. There is no point in bitching about something out of your control.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Just a thought...

There's a certain point where models become androgynous because there's not enough information to determine gender.

How about we all have them, and then no-one needs to worry?

(Apart from the boob-obsessed)

 

[Lieju]

One thing which suprisingly hasn't been raised yet, in shooters characters die, often in brutal, messy ways.
Do you seriously wanna see a female character be shot/stabbed/blown up/chainsawed/beheaded/whateverelse in game?

What an odd question. Why would the sex of the character being killed matter?
I might have issues with children being blown up, but adult women? It's not like women are some delicate flowers that need to be protected by men from all harm.

Of course, if you don't want to see anyone, fictional or otherwise, being blown up...

I don' t personally much care for gore, unless it's very over-the top and a part of the style, or subdued and realistic.

If the developers want to make a game the way they want to make it, then that is their choice. People, it is not up to you to decide what goes in a game, it is up to you to judge the quality of the game. If you play a game, don't like its features for what ever reason, then return it. If you know it is going to be missing something you don't like, or has something you don't want, just don't buy it in the first place. It is in no way going to stop games like Brink from existing, because they have a market. But it is common sense. There is no point in bitching about something out of your control.

So in your opinion people should not discuss what features they do like in a game, and how much something like this affects the decision to play the game?

 

[Geekiest]

If a game touts customization as one of it's draws, and then leaves out more than half the human race, we have a problem, not with any kind of sexism, but with false advertising. Modelling dilemmas aside, it's a matter of a game developer's choice about what kind of audience it aims at: inclusive or exclusive. And I'm not just talking about women who want to use female models when they play. How many female toons in WoW are actually played by women? It is not a small demographic that we're talking about when we bring up the idea of rendering female models.

So I think the real question here is this: If the game developer thinks it's profitable to do so, should it attempt to expand it's demographic with the inclusion of female models?

Um... Yes?

However, if the question is in fact: If the game developer is getting pressured to add female models to quiet ruckuses about unfairness, should it cave and throw a bunch of work into a money-sink?

Uh... No?

However, I hear a third question floating about there too: Should a game-developer sacrifice the intent or style of a game for inclusion of female models?

And I think that's an important one, actually. Because it brings about the question of why the inclusion of women could be seen as stylistically jarring to many video games. I tend to think that's exclusive demographics at work, but it's true to a certain extent that some games just wouldn't be the same with women included. And not necessarily better. So... Hm. Call me undecided on this one. I suppose I'd rather go for a game whose style and intent is inclusive, but if a game is good, exclusiveness won't always keep me away. Any thoughts?

 

[Jingle Fett]

snip

As someone with some industry experience, I want to point out that there are a lot of things wrong with your post...

Especially Brink huh? The game Brink? Brink where in the character design/upgrade/'dress me up daddy' screens the model doesn't stand there, but *bounces*. Brink where the character model looks around displaying his facial hair/haircut/scars and his relatively impossible yet suitably impressive musculature. That Brink? Brink, which is so hung up on its ability to fully render and customize the player character, that you can select an outfit that is properly accessorized to properly set of you hair and or eye color? Is this the game that we're talking about? Brink; the game that is absolutely obsessed with its ability to render a male body in minute detail, this is the game where you don't understand a desire for a female model?

You do realize that the ONLY reason they were able to have that much detail was specifically because they DID cut out female characters? If they're going to include females then they may as well make an alien character because it would be the same amount of work. Unfortunate but there you have it.

Additionally, you don't actually have to re-create the player skeleton from scratch - unless you go with the Fantasy Female model that looks like two watermelons glued to a stop sign. If you make the rash assumption that the female model is going to have the same impossible muscle tone as the male model, then the skeletons can be the same, and only the adolescent males will cry about the absence of BO-dacious mammaries.

In the case of Final Fantasy it is actually the complete opposite. Have you ever wondered why in all these japanese games the male characters are really effeminate and look like girls? The reason for that is specifically because they DO use the same skeleton. Not just that, if I'm not mistaken they even use the same base model and textures, they just tweak them per character. That's why so many japanese characters have distinctive clothes and hair--if they didn't have that it'd be almost impossible to tell them apart because it's the same base model. It's a really clever way to make lots of characters in a short amount of time but you can clearly see what the downsides are. Oh and unless the boobs bounce, no skeleton changes are required...
So if you're going to have men that are distinctly manly and females that are distinctly feminine, different skeletons are required.

And also... I could swear that when I played Brink, that there WERE female NPCs.

NPCs and customizable characters are completely different. They can do the female NPCs because they can just make 1-3 and then re-skin the rest. The clothes are also generally baked in, which means you can't really change them. If the NPCs are customizable, then yea they could include females.

I don't mean to come off like a jerk or anything like that but this whole issue isn't black and white, you need to see things from the developer's side as well...

 

[Voulan]

And of course, if I go on to explain why, I'm just being a feminist ***** who doesn't shut up, isn't that right?

It's a sad reality, isn't it? We attempt to defend ourselves, and we are instantly labeled as extremists.

One thing which suprisingly hasn't been raised yet, in shooters characters die, often in brutal, messy ways.
Do you seriously wanna see a female character be shot/stabbed/blown up/chainsawed/beheaded/whateverelse in game?
Just a thought, and female characters just don't belong in most games which aim to feature realistic-ish combat scenarios anyway. Would it make much sense for female combatants to be running around in a match of Call of Duty of Battlefield?

I don't see how gender focused violence has anything to do with anything. How is a female being shot at any different from a male? If the characters are written well enough, it should have the same emotional impact. I mean, look at Tomb Raider. I didn't feel any reservations from throwing Lara into a spiky pit for not jumping in the right direction, let alone if she were a male.

I'm also a little at odds with your idea that females have no place in combat scenarios. I understand if it is a historical game where women didn't fight, but what about games set in the present or future, or in some alternate reality? Why can't women fight?


Why are males even the default character for FPSs, anyway? I understand for war games, but why are females not the main characters more often? That would save the additional costs for voice actors and what-not mentioned by others earlier.

 

[Vault101]

One thing which suprisingly hasn't been raised yet, in shooters characters die, often in brutal, messy ways.
Do you seriously wanna see a female character be shot/stabbed/blown up/chainsawed/beheaded/whateverelse in game?
]

uhhhh yes...yes I fucking do

I mean why not?

fallout 3, early on my charachter steped on a land mine...her severed leg flew off in one direction, her body in the other

a female raider came at me with a knife, I shot in the head which exploded in a bloody mess..it was AWSOME

there are female gamers and we want to be represented..WHEN APPLICIBLE, or hell just for diversity sake, arnt YOU sick of brown haired 30 somthing males? anyway all I know if Mass effect would fucking suck if I couldnt play as femshep

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

One thing which suprisingly hasn't been raised yet, in shooters characters die, often in brutal, messy ways.
Do you seriously wanna see a female character be shot/stabbed/blown up/chainsawed/beheaded/whateverelse in game?
Just a thought, and female characters just don't belong in most games which aim to feature realistic-ish combat scenarios anyway. Would it make much sense for female combatants to be running around in a match of Call of Duty of Battlefield?

I want to see a woman die brutally just as much as I want to see a man die brutally. That is to say; Not much at all. Or more bluntly: Thinking it is worse to have capable women die horrible deaths than it is to have capable men die horrible deaths is very, very sexist.

And just let me point out that there are such a thing as female soldiers (Jessica Lynch for example did participate and was captured in combat). The russian army has had fighting women since the early 20th century and several western armies today feature women in fighting positions (the swedish and israeli army spring to mind), not to mention people like the kurd freedom fighters, several jihadist groups, the North Korean army and the People's Liberation Army of China.

There's no shortage of women in modern militaries and in the cases of any game that's set in a fantasy world or a sci-fi/future scenario the whole "women don't fight" argument is just silly. In fact, if you are upset that it would be unrealistic to have female soldiers in the Modern Warfare series I'd say your priorities when it comes to realism are pretty strange. Because we all know the plot of the MW games are oh-so-realistic, especially the part about Russia invading the USA. If you can get away with a ridculously over the top story and battles that are less like modern firefights and more like genocide then I don't see how female infantry soldiers would be any more far-fetched.

But what do I know?