Poll: Is treating women in Gentlemanly way Sexist?

[Captain Booyah]

I threw my vote in for 'not sexist', and I'm a wimmenz. If a guy opens a door for me, I assume he's doing that because he's a polite guy who would have done the same for anybody, male or female. Both sexes should be held up to that standard.

If some men only do this for women -- thus falling under what we've defined in this topic as sexism -- then in my experience, they only really do so because it's the "done thing" rather than because they view women as weak or need help, or some other patronising attitude. But that's just in my experience of talking to a few guys about it, anyway. To be perfectly honest, there are much, much worse ways for misogyny to manifest itself, and I think we should deal with those issues first before we start yelling at the poor sod who has the nerve to hold a door open for us.

I kind of took the topic to imply different behaviors towards each gender. Otherwise it would seem quite odd to single out women. But regardless...

Why would doing it because it is the done thing make it any less sexist?

And sure it can be manifested in worse ways, but since someone asked here, why talk about yelling at some poor sod? It's not as if I see anyone suggesting that be done.

Even though the actual act may be sexist ("done thing" or no), what I was trying to say was that the actual people who carry out said acts aren't necessarily sexist -- I've known one or two guys that have said it's just something they were taught to do and it's a natural reaction that they don't think about, despite being as much for equality, fair treatment, etc. as anyone else. They themselves weren't inherently sexist people.

And, uh...I didn't see anyone else suggesting that either? I don't understand your point there, unless I've read it wrong. I was just being pseudo-humourous, given the handful of stories I've heard about some hardcore feminists flipping their shit at random guys who've opened a door for them or done something similar.

 

[Vault101]

it does not make you "sexist" I guess, but you are treating people differently based on gender

Isn't that what "sexism" is?

true, though often we assosiate "sexism" with negative treatment..have the door held open for me isnt negative

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

I think that this argument is extremely silly. If a woman calls you put on holding a door open for her than use that for a jumping off point about all the real sexism she in all likelihood experiences. If she just gets annoyed and storms off in a huff, she probably shouldn't be throwing a fit over you holding a door open for her.

That's evading the issue really. Since when was this about someone theoretical woman getting upset?

I was addressing the situation I thought the OP was in that provoked this thread. If you must force me, I'd change the post to be about a woman accusing him of sexism for suggesting that men should behave in a gentlemanly manner. There is a difference between sexism and SEXISM. One is not necessarily wrong or illogical (don't kick a man in the testicles, don't push a woman at the chest), the other is wrong. The sexes are different, just not different enough to justify SEXISM.

So you thought that "So, afew people on here have called me sexist. What for? For suggesting that men treat women in a gentlemanly manner." meant that women yelled at him for opening a door? I'm not sure how you'd get the impression this was provoke by women yelling at him given his first few sentences.

Yes, the sexes are different. But I'd like to know, if you're not saying that 'gentlemanly' behavior is unjustified, then what differences between the sexes justify opening doors, handing off jackets, pulling out chairs, etc? Your examples were direct physical differences that do not apply to any of those behaviors.

Two can play this game. Did I say yelled? No, I said got upset. I was also tossing out the common hypothetical scenario that people use when this is brought up. I still think this whole argument is silly.

Oh there isn't, but I still don't care about it. I honestly couldn't care less. So people want to act extra polite towards women. Maybe they behave that way out of a desire to get that person to like them. Maybe this is more of a sexual orientation thing than a sexism thing. For me it certainly is.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

I think that this argument is extremely silly. If a woman calls you put on holding a door open for her than use that for a jumping off point about all the real sexism she in all likelihood experiences. If she just gets annoyed and storms off in a huff, she probably shouldn't be throwing a fit over you holding a door open for her.

I'm one of the people who called him a sexist, not because he holds the door open for people, but because he specifically goes out of his way to treat women differently than men. Which is pretty obvious sexism.

I realize this, I just don't think that it is important. Why go after this when there are far bigger fish to fry. At worst this is simply a representation of much bigger problems in society.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

I think that this argument is extremely silly. If a woman calls you put on holding a door open for her than use that for a jumping off point about all the real sexism she in all likelihood experiences. If she just gets annoyed and storms off in a huff, she probably shouldn't be throwing a fit over you holding a door open for her.

That's evading the issue really. Since when was this about someone theoretical woman getting upset?

I was addressing the situation I thought the OP was in that provoked this thread. If you must force me, I'd change the post to be about a woman accusing him of sexism for suggesting that men should behave in a gentlemanly manner. There is a difference between sexism and SEXISM. One is not necessarily wrong or illogical (don't kick a man in the testicles, don't push a woman at the chest), the other is wrong. The sexes are different, just not different enough to justify SEXISM.

So you thought that "So, afew people on here have called me sexist. What for? For suggesting that men treat women in a gentlemanly manner." meant that women yelled at him for opening a door? I'm not sure how you'd get the impression this was provoke by women yelling at him given his first few sentences.

Yes, the sexes are different. But I'd like to know, if you're not saying that 'gentlemanly' behavior is unjustified, then what differences between the sexes justify opening doors, handing off jackets, pulling out chairs, etc? Your examples were direct physical differences that do not apply to any of those behaviors.

Two can play this game. Did I say yelled? No, I said got upset. I was also tossing out the common hypothetical scenario that people use when this is brought up. I still think this whole argument is silly.

What game? I'm not sure how you think the discrepancy I pointed out is equivalent to a minor word change.

Oh there isn't, but I still don't care about it. I honestly couldn't care less. So people want to act extra polite towards women. Maybe they behave that way out of a desire to get that person to like them. Maybe this is more of a sexual orientation thing than a sexism thing. For me it certainly is.

Meh, people like to hold on to their sexism for no real reasons it seems.

I was talking about your rules-lawyer-esque use of exact words in an argument. It can get a bit annoying. You must be the life of your dnd group. And the discrepancy is based around that last sentence there.

Maybe I should have used a stronger word than like. I suppose love would be correct, but that is a little bit too far.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

I think that this argument is extremely silly. If a woman calls you put on holding a door open for her than use that for a jumping off point about all the real sexism she in all likelihood experiences. If she just gets annoyed and storms off in a huff, she probably shouldn't be throwing a fit over you holding a door open for her.

I'm one of the people who called him a sexist, not because he holds the door open for people, but because he specifically goes out of his way to treat women differently than men. Which is pretty obvious sexism.

I realize this, I just don't think that it is important. Why go after this when there are far bigger fish to fry. At worst this is simply a representation of much bigger problems in society.

It's not a very high cost to just avoid engaging in it or pointing out that it is indeed sexist while you're posting on these forums anyway. I don't get this 'bigger fish' stuff as an excuse for not even trivial opposition.

I just don't care. I'm really suprised that you care so much. You really seem to be getting pretty angry here, quoting be within seconds of me posting my comment. It appears this is a pretty big issue for you.

 

[Captain Booyah]

I threw my vote in for 'not sexist', and I'm a wimmenz. If a guy opens a door for me, I assume he's doing that because he's a polite guy who would have done the same for anybody, male or female. Both sexes should be held up to that standard.

If some men only do this for women -- thus falling under what we've defined in this topic as sexism -- then in my experience, they only really do so because it's the "done thing" rather than because they view women as weak or need help, or some other patronising attitude. But that's just in my experience of talking to a few guys about it, anyway. To be perfectly honest, there are much, much worse ways for misogyny to manifest itself, and I think we should deal with those issues first before we start yelling at the poor sod who has the nerve to hold a door open for us.

I kind of took the topic to imply different behaviors towards each gender. Otherwise it would seem quite odd to single out women. But regardless...

Why would doing it because it is the done thing make it any less sexist?

And sure it can be manifested in worse ways, but since someone asked here, why talk about yelling at some poor sod? It's not as if I see anyone suggesting that be done.

Even though the actual act may be sexist ("done thing" or no), what I was trying to say was that the actual people who carry out said acts aren't necessarily sexist -- I've known one or two guys that have said it's just something they were taught to do and it's a natural reaction that they don't think about, despite being as much for equality, fair treatment, etc. as anyone else. They themselves weren't inherently sexist people.

And, uh...I didn't see anyone else suggesting that either? I don't understand your point there, unless I've read it wrong. I was just being pseudo-humourous, given the handful of stories I've heard about some hardcore feminists flipping their shit at random guys who've opened a door for them or done something similar.

Well if they keep doing it anyway once they know, isn't that kinda sexist?

Ah. Well I seem to see people bring up that thing as if it actually happens all the time or something. I've never seen it.

I suppose it is sexist if they carry on anyway, but given that there are no kind of ill or negative reasons for the act, then it's not necessarily a bad thing. Plus, it can be hard to break that kind of conditioned behaviour you've done your entire life.

I think the number of instances where that actually happens is pretty rare, but that sort of thing just attracts a lot of attention due to those certain feminists' obviously vocal attitudes. My father once told me how years ago, he was shouted at for (appropriately, in this context) holding open a door though, so it does happen.

 

[DeltaEdge]

If you only treat women with extra respect and refuse to show men the same courtesy, then I believe that is sexist. You are treating genders unequally. You have decided that women deserve to be treated with an elevated level of respect and/or assistance (whether they want it or not) because of a trait that they did not choose themselves and were born with, and not because their upstanding character warrants it. That being said, I don't think someone who only treats women with extra respect is a real gentleman. I think a real gentleman is one who treats everyone with an unusual amount of respect regardless of gender. I try to fit into this category. I always make sure to hold the door equally for both men and women, and things like that. I do agree that there is no problem with treating people that you know personally better than complete strangers, but I don't really think that there is any argument here about that.

 

[Wayneguard]

By definition, it is discriminatory to treat any person differently than you otherwise would based on their characteristics, be they gender or race or sexual orientation etc. So yes, I would say it is being sexist to treat a woman any differently than you would any other person.

 

[Total LOLige]

I'd say that it's not sexist it's just polite, I assume most people are raised to treat women with respect. Also if I had to treat both genders exactly the same shit could get pretty awkward, everytime I say a women has a nice figure I'd have to say that her male friend also had a nice figure. Letting the door slam in a women's face because you think holding it open is sexist would be rude. I hold the door open for everyone be they male or female, ugly or smokin' hot, because I'm polite oh and because I think women are too weak to open the heavy door.

 

[Total LOLige]

I'd say that it's not sexist it's just polite, I assume most people are raised to treat women with respect. Also if I had to treat both genders exactly the same shit could get pretty awkward, everytime I say a women has a nice figure I'd have to say that her male friend also had a nice figure. Letting the door slam in a women's face because you think holding it open is sexist would be rude. I hold the door open for everyone be they male or female, ugly or smokin' hot, because I'm polite oh and because I think women are too weak to open the heavy door.

It is certainly sexist when your idea of politeness and respect involves discriminating against people.

How is my idea of politeness and respect discriminating?

 

[Total LOLige]

I'd say that it's not sexist it's just polite, I assume most people are raised to treat women with respect. Also if I had to treat both genders exactly the same shit could get pretty awkward, everytime I say a women has a nice figure I'd have to say that her male friend also had a nice figure. Letting the door slam in a women's face because you think holding it open is sexist would be rude. I hold the door open for everyone be they male or female, ugly or smokin' hot, because I'm polite oh and because I think women are too weak to open the heavy door.

It is certainly sexist when your idea of politeness and respect involves discriminating against people.

How is my idea of politeness and respect discriminating?

If it involves treating them differently based on their gender then it's discriminating by definition. There are no gender differences that directly call for such different treatment. It's not like different anatomy or something.

I said I hold the door open for everyone at the end of my post.