Poll: Israel: Is it's existence justified?

[mrpenguinismyhomeboy]

I don't know. I'm Kinda on the fence on this one. Their are several people who can be called responsible for the situation with Israel. Both Hamas and Israel have done their fair share of bad things, and their is no real clear good guy any way you look at it. I honestly think that the British Government after WWII was responsible, mainly because they put Israel in a land they had already promised to the Palestinians.

I Personally don't believe Israel should have been created, mainly because I disagree with the concept that Israel is a "Jewish State" and not just a state with Jews in it. Israel as a country may exist, but my problem with it is that it's a "Jewish country". I have nothing against Judaism as a religion, nor do I have anything against Jewish people, I just disagree with the concept of a "Jewish Country". I would have the same problem if it were an Islam State, a Christian state, or any other religious or racial state.

I think that as a Jewish state, it is much easier for Israel to become corrupt. After all, given that it is a Jewish state, and all the people with the vote in Israel are Jews, they are more likely to vote for things and principles that they consider "Jewish" ideas and practices. And given that religion is a very ambiguous thing, it can easily be taken out of context, and a malicious and or dangerous practice can become the law if it is presented in a way that makes it an acceptable "Jewish" practice. The same problem exist in America. Every Politician has to say they are a christian, because otherwise they will lose a large amount of votes. I think religion and politics should be kept away from each other, for it only makes an already complex issue more complex.

I find the whole war between Israel and Palestine silly, mainly because the too countries are fighting over land that is fundamentally worthless. If there was any holiness there, it's gone now, because all the fighting and bloodshed have probably destroyed and desecrated any sacred monument or place that is there. If you remove the religious aspect from it, these two countries are fighting over nothing. Just a bunch of dead land. In my opinion, if Israel wants to exist so badly, then they should be moved to Hawaii. That at least looks pretty, and there are less Muslims I'm sure.

That's my take it on it all.

 

[Gamer137]

The UN stole Palestinian land. Plain and simple.

 

[PersianLlama]

I don't believe that Israel as it is should have been created because it was just displacing a whole bunch of other people who already lived there, imposing artificial rule upon those that were left. Palestinian villages were emptied, razed and replaced leaving hundreds of thousands to live in refugee camps because they have nothing to go back to and no way to get there.

As I said in the other thread, it's not anti-Semitic to criticise and disagree with Israel. That in particular pisses me off. The Israeli government has absolutely no right to act as it did because of the Holocaust.

I would've typed up something myself, but this is my entire opinion.

 

[tmnnerd]

its interesting to read (ok skim over) the varying arguments here and watch a lot of people getting their knickers in a twist. there's a lot of really strong religious feeling coming from people who are at the same time pretending to not have a religious interest here.

so here's the scoop folks: who cares? really the whole thing is pointless; islam grew out of judaism as a sub-sect much like christianity and the two 'peoples,' or 'ethnic groups' to be more PC about it, came from the same damn area and are very alike. its like watching two 4 year old twins fighting over a sock. neither of them really wants it (lets face it the Gaza Strip et al is not exactly prime real estate here. i mean were talking sand and rock folks) and the only reason they pretend they do is because they see the other one as having it.

well maybe that was an over simplification in the extreme but the main point is sound. the two groups are so alike ie: stubborn, that they will never give in to each others demands and will never reach a compromise.

perhaps it was the fault of our ancestors here in blighty but like the parent of the twins dueling over that moth-eaten sock; we have ceased to care, we are ignoring you and if you dont sort it out quickly and quietly were going to walk out of Tesco and leave you here. how would you like that hmm?

ps: "my holy land blah blah" isnt an excuse im afraid because as i pointed out; sub-sects. it isnt "mine or thine" it is in fact the holy point of three inter-connected faiths. it should be "ours"

 

[L.B. Jeffries]

*snip*

I'll take my version over that delusional rant buddy. The refugee camps, the deportation, the bombing of Lebanon, destroying UN facilities intentionally. Oh yeah, I'm coming from nowhere on this one.

 

[frank220]

It was justified for the Jews as the land of their ancestors and a place to rebuild after the Final Solution in the 1930s and 1940s. I say no more on this topic.

 

[GyroCaptain]

What the fuck!

Holy shit people, I've read through this entire thread, all of it, and I have to say that not a single one of you have a clue as to how fucking stupid this entire argument is. This thread itself embodies the very spirit of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, as two thick-headed forces continue to fight each other over a point that has been long lost and buried.

I know I'm not regarded as the most accepting or multicultural person on the Escapist, but that should not keep you from hearing these very truthful words.

All the great nations of the world, all the countries we inhabit, were taken by force at some point in history.[...]

Exactly. It's not a question of "Is its existence justified" if the argument people like to have is whether it WAS justified. Learn from history, sure, but for the sake of whatever deity don't act as if it's a great idea to lob rockets at someone based on your ancestors' poorly thought out plans for the future putting you at odds with someone else's descendants or act as if an area should be forever dead, lawless and filled with rabble because it served as a shelter for madnesses of the past. The Comanche in me isn't grounds for me going out with a rifle to take back Federal wildlife preserves and the Civil War landowner's losses aren't for going after the descendants of northern speculators, after all.

I mean, even the Hatfield-McCoy feud only lasted a short while in the grand scheme of things.

 

[ElephantGuts]

*snip*

I'll take my version over that delusional rant buddy. The refugee camps, the deportation, the bombing of Lebanon, destroying UN facilities intentionally. Oh yeah, I'm coming from nowhere on this one.

I hardly see how the events you just mentioned validate your previous accusations against the nation of Israel. Perhaps if you could provide me with some links or other form of proof of Israel taking over the country of Palestine, taking over the Palestinian government, and waging war on everyone around them, as you said? Because I never heard of that happening.

And I would simply love it if you could point out any part of my "rant" that was "delusional." Because frankly, you sound like you're on drugs.

 

[Gamer137]

The UN stole Palestinian land. Plain and simple.

Stole it from whom? The English who were in control of it and gave it up in the same way they chose who to give control of Pakastan, India, and other former colonies to?

I am against imperialism. British had legal control, but it really belonges to the natives. If the natives hate Israel, hence the constant conflict, then it needs to be removed from political status as a nation.

 

[HentMas]

I generally don´t agree with Judaism as a religion and I believe that they should had being put in another place to begin with.

but well, that´s just my opinion.

And where should we have been put in your opinion?

Well, for starters the Muslin (or however it is spelled) countries already have trouble with every other religion, saying that it would be OK to put them in the U.S is just pretentious from me (not being from the U.S), so I see why they didn´t thought about it twice when they were sent to their former religious grounds... but I don't know, some virgin islands?? somewhere where they do not conflict with other religions...

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

Well the land was technically never there's in the first place
i think it should not have been created although the jews did need somewhere to go

there's a famous saying that actually is said in many religions

"The Jews are cursed to never have a land of their own"

Not being oiffensive or rascist or trying to say that jews are bad but simply stating something that seems very intresting

Overall i think we should come down to one thing , Were they there first ?

And the US is technically on stolen land from the Natives, and you know what they did? They slaughtered every last one of them! Hell, I have less of a right to live on this land than Israelis because they're continually fighting for it right now!

But I really don't want to delve into this topic, it'll just turn out ugly. I will agree however that Israel was not exactly established in the best of places in the world...

/agree
No one has the right to live where they are now. Every land has been taken over by someone else by this time. Australia is a good example, we fucked over the people who lived here before us. So we don't deserve to live here either.

 

[Gamer137]

The UN stole Palestinian land. Plain and simple.

Stole it from whom? The English who were in control of it and gave it up in the same way they chose who to give control of Pakastan, India, and other former colonies to?

I am against imperialism. British had legal control, but it really belonges to the natives. If the natives hate Israel, hence the constant conflict, then it needs to be removed from political status as a nation.

Oh I see. So you are in favor of dismantling the US government and handing full control back to the native communities who you stole the land from?

I never said stealing land from the Native Americans was justified. Am I spoiled by my current lifestyle? If you mean I would complain if the US had to be destroyed and would be controlled by people I don't understand, then yes. However, if the land was never stolen in the first place and I was born in Europe, I would have nothing to complain about.

 

[duchaked]

well I mean...they won...so why question?

I mean the American Colonies rebelled...and won (well the French helped)

 

[Jerious1154]

It's become the trend to dismiss using the Holocaust to justify Israel as being outdated and no longer relevant, however you have to remember that Israel wasn't created within the last couple years, it was created in the immediate aftermath of the Holocaust.

The Holocaust proved that Europe and the US did not have the Jews' backs. I don't mean that the governments agreed with the holocaust and were antisemitic, but they were unwilling to destroy concentration camps when they had the chance or to accept refugees.

The Jews needed somewhere where they could live without having to worry about whether the next regime will decide that the economic downturn is their fault. That's why Israel needed to be created. Whether it should have been created where it was is a whole separate issue and I respect people who disagree with Israel's policies, but when it comes to whether the Jews needed a homeland I think that it's incredibly naive to say that the answer is no.